Homeowner looking for electrical help...

[ajchien]

About 6 months ago, bought a 2004 built home. Been fixing up things here and there and I'm now getting to the number address lights on the front of the house that have never worked.

So here's what I've figured out ...

The house's 120V feed goes into a photosensor, that turns on in darkness. It then goes into a transformer. The output of the transformer is 18.3V. The low voltage wiring goes to the address light fixture. The wires at the fixture read 18.3V. However, the bulb sockets in the fixture read nothing. I've got continuity in the bulbs ... Therefore I figure the sockets in the fixture are broken/non functional.

Not sure what is wrong with the fixture sockets. Seems pretty straightforward, but they're not working.

But I was then thinking... Does someone make 18V LED lights fixures? Or can a 12V led system take a 18V feed? If this makes no sense - then Where could I source any small light fixture I could put inside this address light box that can take a 18V feed?

Thanks for your guys's input.

 

[Mustang51js]

A lot of the socket or pins on low voltage lights go bad after a couple years. Malibu is one company that makes led landscape lights but there's more if you search around. Malibu is available at Home Depot. A lot of times I will cut off the connectors that come with the lights and wire nut them directly.

 

[Showkey]

A couple of things come up on low voltage LED swaps:

Most landscaping low voltage systems are 12-18 volts AC.

If you we're to use automotive LED bulbs they need DC voltage.

 

[Mustang51js]

Take a picture of the lights and transformer,maybe they used wrong transformer

 

[ajchien]

Above are pics of the transformer and the light fixture.

 

[Mustang51js]

Yeah that's the wrong transformer,that's why they never worked. Go to Home Depot or electric supply and get a dc transformer made for low voltage lights. That transformer is for door bells and furnaces

 

[Mustang51js]

That's also a strange light, is there anything on the bulb that's says ac or dc. Looks homemade setup to me

 

[ajchien]

When I'm looking at the fixture socket, I'm wondering how the circuit is completed. Is it through the metal bar in the back? Or am I missing some kind of jumper wire between the 2 sockets?

In any case, I'm having difficulty locating a light socket that is 18v. Lots of 12v stuff out there. Lots of "low voltage" (otherwise not specified) landscape lighting fixtures out there.

Thoughts?

 

[nehog]

...
If you we're to use automotive LED bulbs they need DC voltage.

Some will work on AC...

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Above are pics of the transformer and the light fixture.

Is that a bare wire on the left?

If so, it should be changed to an insulated wire....

Im also not seeing how on the circuit is completed...

 

[Mustang51js]

Are you sure that the transformer in the picture is actually for the lights,because you have uf wire at the light which is different than the wire coming off the transformer which is t-stat wire. Your having trouble locating 18 volt stuff because they aren't supposed to run on 18v. 12v is what you would be looking at and need to get.

 

[Mustang51js]

The only lights that I know off top of my head that would work on that transformer is the lights that come in a door bell button. You may need to buy some led that are 3 volt and then get a different transformer. Do you have a pic of the inside of address sign

 

[ajchien]

Are you sure that the transformer in the picture is actually for the lights,because you have uf wire at the light which is different than the wire coming off the transformer which is t-stat wire.

Im not totally knowledgeable about electrical, but here's what I can tell you:

During daylight hours, the transformer's 120V feed wires do not have power, and the output has no power, and the wires at the light have no power. During nighttime, the 120V feed wires have power, the transformer output has power, and the wires at the light have power. The power goes on and off at the same time as some courtyard lights - that are also connected to the same photosensor.

My doorbell rings appropriately, whether or not the transformer is hooked up or disconnected.

The above is why I think the transformer powers the address lights. FWIW, I think it's original to the house (because my neighbors have the same looking transformer in their garage)

 

[ajchien]

Do you have a pic of the inside of address sign

The last pic in post #5 above is the inside of the address sign.

 

[ajchien]

Is that a bare wire on the left?

If so, it should be changed to an insulated wire....

Im also not seeing how on the circuit is completed...

The best I can tell, it's bare wire on the outside of the hole, and wrapped with something around it when it goes into the hole.

Im wondering if these 2 light sockets were supposed to be connected in series through another wire, missing between the 2 sockets.... hot wire in one socket ... bulb ... socket ... *missing wire* ... socket ... bulb ... socket ... neutral wire?

 

[ajchien]

The only lights that I know off top of my head that would work on that transformer is the lights that come in a door bell button. You may need to buy some led that are 3 volt and then get a different transformer. Do you have a pic of the inside of address sign

Do you think I can buy a 120V to 12V transformer, hook it up to the existing wires, and then hook up some landscape yard 12V light bulb/socket on the address sign side and it'll all work?

 

[n8n]

The best I can tell, it's bare wire on the outside of the hole, and wrapped with something around it when it goes into the hole.

Im wondering if these 2 light sockets were supposed to be connected in series through another wire, missing between the 2 sockets.... hot wire in one socket ... bulb ... socket ... *missing wire* ... socket ... bulb ... socket ... neutral wire?

Plausible... post light at GF's house is like that. 2x automotive bulbs in series, xformer inside looks like a HVAC xformer. 24 VAC. Do you have the original bulbs, or is there any indication what part no. Bulbs were intended to be used with the light?



Sent from my XT897 using Tapatalk

 

[Mustang51js]

Do you think I can buy a 120V to 12V transformer, hook it up to the existing wires, and then hook up some landscape yard 12V light bulb/socket on the address sign side and it'll all work?

Yeah you can do that,you can get a small transformer for $30 or find one inline. Just make sure the wattage of bulbs doesn't go over the max output of transformer. You may need to remove old transformer and put an outlet in it's place because most landscape transformers come with a plug

 

[ajchien]

Yeah that's the wrong transformer,that's why they never worked. Go to Home Depot or electric supply and get a dc transformer made for low voltage lights. That transformer is for door bells and furnaces

Dumb question: Do I need a DC or AC transformer, and why?

Is my existing one AC or DC? How do I tell?

 

[Mustang51js]

Dc, that's what the landscape lights run off of

 

[Mustang51js]

Check out Malibu since that's what is popular and give you an idea

 

[nehog]

This setup won't work...

Look at the fifth picture, the wires, heavily oxidized are just loosely twisted around the socket terminals. No way there's a connection there. You need to make proper connections.

And the transformer is probably a doorbell unit and not for the lights but it is not possible to tell 100% from the images.

 

[Zeke]

The best I can tell, it's bare wire on the outside of the hole, and wrapped with something around it when it goes into the hole.

Im wondering if these 2 light sockets were supposed to be connected in series through another wire, missing between the 2 sockets.... hot wire in one socket ... bulb ... socket ... *missing wire* ... socket ... bulb ... socket ... neutral wire?

I think the strap accomplishes the series connection. Do you have a MM?

 

[ajchien]

I think the strap accomplishes the series connection. Do you have a MM?

Yes I have a multimeter and i have the fixture piece in hand now (disconnected it from the wires).

The tab where the wire connects and the bulb socket side are really weak in continuity. I'm measuring resistance in ohms. One side constant fluctuates a bit while the other side gets nothing.

Nevertheless, right now I'm trying to figure out the best way to try to get this address number light fixture working again.

In my mind, one way is to find an 18v bulb (a few can be found for 18v cordless tool flashlights, but I'm having difficulty finding a socket to fit the bulb into)

Or the other way is to convert to a 12v transformer. But I'm having some difficulty finding a 12v transformer that can be wired into the 120v house. Seems like they are all large, have timers, and want to be plugged into a socket like mustang said in an earlier post.

It's weird because my neighbors all have transformers in their garage that look just like mine, and their lights work.

 

[n8n]

Are the bulbs in series? A 12v bulb running on 9v (half of 18v) will be somewhat dim, but last a really really long time.

Sent from my XT897 using Tapatalk

 

[ajchien]

Are the bulbs in series? A 12v bulb running on 9v (half of 18v) will be somewhat dim, but last a really really long time.

Sent from my XT897 using Tapatalk

Not knowing enough about electricity ....

Yes, it does seem the the original socket fixture is set up to run in series. Do you think this was intentional? Is is simply just a address number light.

 

[BFBOB]

A couple of things come up on low voltage LED swaps:

Most landscaping low voltage systems are 12-18 volts AC.

If you we're to use automotive LED bulbs they need DC voltage.

Wrong. LED stands for light emitting DIODE. A diode conducts in only one polarity. Applying AC to an LED will just light it when the voltage is the right polarity, not when it reverses (alternates). This will make the LED flicker on and off 60 times a second, which may or may not be annoying.

The voltage, on the other hand, could be a problem. AC voltage is usually stated as RMS which is .707 the peak value for a sine wave. So, your 18VAC from the transformer actually reaches 25.4V at the peak of each cycle. The LED light assemblies may have built-in voltage regulators, but they may not be able to regulate that high a peak voltage.

To further complicate things, transformers are rated for voltage at a rated current load. No-load or partial load voltage will be higher. In the case of the transformers I use the most, rated 16.5V 40VA, with no load the voltage rises to 18.8V, or 26.6 peak volts.

An LED lamp assembly intended for automotive use is probably rated to handle 18VDC max. In this case, you have to compare DC ratings to AC peak voltage. I'm going to waffle on the issue. Might work, might go ****. It would be an interesting experiment, and not very expensive.

 

[reader2580]

Do the lights at the neighbor's house with the same setup work? If so, maybe they will let you measure the voltage at the light sockets to see if they are AC or DC? You could also check to see what the voltage is at the neighbor's transformer.

 

[nehog]

Gee, people, read my last reply. There is not even a remote chance it will work because the wires are not connected to the socket's terminals.

 

[CNGsaves]

Four choices:

1) AC or DC . . . depends on flavor of girls you run around with !! . .
2) Mike Holmes style . . . tear the wall and garage down & start over !!
3) Fish new wire in wall (existing transformer or replace)
4) Abandon and install small solar panel running your light

 

[ajchien]

Ok guys, I think I figured out what's wrong with the original setup. In the 5th picture in post #5 shows the fixture socket.

It's 18v AC coming out of the transformer and going into the wires.

The fixture socket in post #5 is 2 sockets connected in series.

The metal band strap between the 2 sockets completes the series connection (as Zeke said)

However, there is no continuity between one of the sockets and the metal band strap that connects the two sockets. I don't actually see where the open/discomnection is.



Now knowing that a LED conversion requires me to switch to a DC transformer, I'm just trying to get this fixed up simply.



So I'm thinking of keeping it at 18v AC and doing what user n8n said in post #25.

***Can I get two 12v bulb sockets, connect them in series, and plug in two 12v bulbs? Will actually work given that it's a 18v AC feed? I'm thinking this was what was originally there. Is this a stupid idea or is it acceptable?


PS All replies have been helpful as I'm sorting this out one step at a time and learning more about electrical every day.

 

[n8n]

Yes I think that that will work fine. Also if you have identified the poor connection I would hose all the metal bits down with Deoxit and maybe scrub with a brass brush if it's really crusty, and then touch up all the connections with some solder. Then reinstall whatever bulbs it originally came with with some dielectric grease on all the interface points and I bet it'll work fine for years.

 

[ajchien]

1. Buy short sale house that hasn't been lived in for 2 years.
2. Put in too much money to renovate the place, a few things go undone.
3. Procrastinate for 6 months.
4. Spend 2 days sorting out what's going on.
5. Spend 3 days on garage journal asking for help.
6. Wait 4 days for mail order parts.
7. Install and be happy!

Thanks guys. I basically did what n8n suggested. Instead of messing around with a DC transformer, or going LED ... I kept the old 18V AC transformer, and connected two new 12v t5 socket base bulbs together in series.

I've still got a bunch of other electrical projects to figure out. More future homeowner thread questions to come....

(Apparently this setup isn't too unusual in my area, as a local home depot showed me a few commercial kits where they sell an 18v AC transformer, with an address light that has two 12v bulbs in series. )

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Dumb question: Do I need a DC or AC transformer, and why?

Is my existing one AC or DC? How do I tell?

If youre feeding AC into it, then its AC. Transformers dont convert electricity from AC to DC or vice versa, they change the voltage...

Ok guys, I think I figured out what's wrong with the original setup. In the 5th picture in post #5 shows the fixture socket.

It's 18v AC coming out of the transformer and going into the wires.

The fixture socket in post #5 is 2 sockets connected in series.

The metal band strap between the 2 sockets completes the series connection (as Zeke said)

However, there is no continuity between one of the sockets and the metal band strap that connects the two sockets. I don't actually see where the open/discomnection is.

Now knowing that a LED conversion requires me to switch to a DC transformer, I'm just trying to get this fixed up simply.

So I'm thinking of keeping it at 18v AC and doing what user n8n said in post #25.

***Can I get two 12v bulb sockets, connect them in series, and plug in two 12v bulbs? Will actually work given that it's a 18v AC feed? I'm thinking this was what was originally there. Is this a stupid idea or is it acceptable?


PS All replies have been helpful as I'm sorting this out one step at a time and learning more about electrical every day.

Not only would u need a transformer but u would also need a converter to change the electricity from AC to DC... Inverters do the opposite- take DC and change it to AC...

 

[dw1]

AC to DC would need a rectifier, and a little late, but you figured it out with help here, your landscape lights are AC, just low voltage, also, as you have figured out, time, moisture, corrosion, it might be best to start over (New Lights). Also, do the math, see what wattage your transformer is, add the wattage of the lamps up (Dont overload) or that will be another problem you will be troubleshooting down the road.

 

[TheEquineFencer]

Dumb question: Do I need a DC or AC transformer, and why?

Is my existing one AC or DC? How do I tell?

Yeah that's the wrong transformer,that's why they never worked. Go to Home Depot or electric supply and get a dc transformer made for low voltage lights. That transformer is for door bells and furnaces

IMHO....I guess this quote needs to go to the WTF thread...please explain to me me how you get DC out of a 120V AC input transformer? The last time I checked, you put AC in and get AC out, to get DC you have to do some rectification...

 

[Mr. T]

IMHO....I guess this quote needs to go to the WTF thread...please explain to me me how you get DC out of a 120V AC input transformer? The last time I checked, you put AC in and get AC out, to get DC you have to do some rectification...

Yeah, call me crazy but I always thought a transformer was fundamentally an AC device. Unless I've been grossly misinformed.

 

[TheEquineFencer]

Yeah, call me crazy but I always thought a transformer was fundamentally an AC device. Unless I've been grossly misinformed.

That's a question they ask a lot of times on generator tech tests. Something about what DC voltage do you get out out of the secondary side of a 120V input transformer if it's a 10-1 ratio transformer. I usually answer the question if it's asked in person with whatever voltage the skyhook or door stretcher needs.

 

[Mustang51js]

IMHO....I guess this quote needs to go to the WTF thread...please explain to me me how you get DC out of a 120V AC input transformer? The last time I checked, you put AC in and get AC out, to get DC you have to do some rectification...

Don't know but I know you can buy them

 

[BFBOB]

Don't know but I know you can buy them

Not so. There are little devices (sometimes called "wall warts") that plug into a 120 VAC outlet and produce myriad voltages in AC and DC. Some are transformers. They transform the 120VAC from the wall into some other AC voltage ... usually. Sometimes they put out the same voltage as was put into them.
Other devices that look about the same are power supplies. These devices (usually) contain a transformer that transforms the 120VAC into some other AC voltage AND various other devices that turn it into DC, smooth ("filter") and regulate it.
Both are also commonly called "AC adaptors". Indeed, they do adapt the 120VAC to some other form of electricity, and some other form of connector.

There is no such thing as a DC transformer. Anyone who thinks there is is misinformed, and if corrected would probably use the fallback position of "Oh, you know what I mean" accompanied by an eyeroll.

Trying to correct misinformation - like even after my explanation yet another GJ-er repeated the incorrect assertion that an LED won't work on AC. It will. It really will. It will light up during the time the Current is flowing the right direction. When it Alternates to trying to flow the opposite direction, the LED will block it and not light up.

Don't take my word for it. Get your LED flashlight out and reverse the LED. It won't work, but neither will it blow up. While you're at it, look at the instructions that likely came with it.

OK, stepping down from my soap box -- for now.