Are electricians that busy?

[Mustang51js]

It has been discussed before on electrical forums I belong to it's not "alarmist tripe".

Why is it so strange for an insurance company to deny a claim from faulty diy work? Who cares if it passed inspection the inspectors miss a lot of stuff trust me on that. They don't check every splice with a wire nut or every outlet to see if the screws are tight for example. All it takes is a loose wire on an outlet and you could have a fire if it's not on a AFCI circuit. People are sneaky too they hide a lot of ****.

I doubt insurance companies are going to back people who get their knowledge from garage journal and youtube But I'm sure they will back a contractor that is licensed because they have the proper training. Because odds are the contractor that has been trained will result in fewer problems. Sure the pros make mistakes everyone does but it's safe to say the DIYers make more mistakes because they lack the training.

The whole business model of an insurance company is to make money not pay out claims. Why would they take a huge risk backing unqualified people doing dangerous work? Does that make financial sense to you?

I agree with this,I am a volunteer fire fighter and the insurance companies fight as hard as possible to not pay a claim,last one a space heater caught some clothes on fire which was an accident but took homeowners almost two years to get money and wasn't even close to enough to repair damage. The point of a licensed electrician is that they have to have a certain amount of insurance,if something happens that's their fault their insurance covers it. As a homeowner you just have to deal with your own insurance co and hope they will pay,and it's getting a lot tougher for that now a days. And I don't agree that you can learn everything online,most of the stuff you need experience that you can't get from reading,you need hands on. If it was so easy everyone would be an electrician.

 

[AlwaysFixingSomething]

It's not rocket surgery. Everything one needs to know can be found online. Like any craft, quality of work comes from skill, practice, and observing good examples.

Good luck deciphering who is telling you the correct information and who's not. I rather work for a contractor and learn straight from the source of proven experience. Lots of people give wrong information online all the time. Most of the information given online is also from DIYers not the trade professionals.

I just read a post not about electrical work but about roofing. The guy said the plastic strip on the bottom of the shingles needs to be removed. When in fact the manufacturers clearly state on the package not to. Then he says "the pros never take it off and it's a no no"

This is what I'm talking about bad/wrong information is slung all over the internet.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Its been years since Ive done a roof,whats the reasoning for not removing it according to the manufacturer?
And why do they put it on there then?

 

[Gerald O]

I just read a post not about electrical work but about roofing. The guy said the plastic strip on the bottom of the shingles needs to be removed. When in fact the manufacturers clearly state on the package not to. Then he says "the pros never take it off and it's a no no"

This is what I'm talking about bad/wrong information is slung all over the internet.

I'm confused...now your a roofer?

 

[Gerald O]

Its been years since Ive done a roof,whats the reasoning for not removing it according to the manufacturer?
And why do they put it on there then?

Keeps the shingles from sticking together while they are in the package. http://www.gaf.com/Warranties_Techn...teep_Slope_Technical_Point_TAB_R_2011_106.pdf
Serves no purpose after they are installed.
Of course, you can't believe everything you read on the internet...

 

[AlwaysFixingSomething]

I'm confused...now your a roofer?

Nope I worked for a roofing company when i was younger and done several roofs myself.

 

[volleyball]

Nope I worked for a roofing company when i was younger and done several roofs myself.

No ,you need to hire an insured roofing company or your insurance company will deny all your claims.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Keeps the shingles from sticking together while they are in the package. http://www.gaf.com/Warranties_Techn...teep_Slope_Technical_Point_TAB_R_2011_106.pdf
Serves no purpose after they are installed.
Of course, you can't believe everything you read on the internet...

So why do you not remove it when installing the shingles then is my question,I would think it would help the shingles stick down better after heating up.
I don't claim to be a roofer by any means though.

 

[AlwaysFixingSomething]

No ,you need to hire an insured roofing company or your insurance company will deny all your claims.

If i did a roof on my own house and it failed i wouldn't expect my insurance to pay for it because I'm not a professional licensed roofer . A bad roof job won't burn my house down or electrocute me though

 

[AlwaysFixingSomething]

So why do you not remove it when installing the shingles then is my question,I would think it would help the shingles stick down better after heating up.
I don't claim to be a roofer by any means though.

Have you ever tried to peel that strip off? It's not easy. A large roof job would take forever with someone dicking around trying to peel that **** off lol A properly nailed shingle will never blow off in most windy conditions. Obviously I'm not talking about tornado force winds though

 

[carap]

No need to remove the clear strip. When they are stacked in the bundle the clear strip is over the adhesive spots on the shingle below to keep them from sticking together. When put on the roof shingles are offset and the clear strip in just in contact with the deck. When on the roof the adhesive spot sticks to the bottom of the shingle above.

 

[Thumper68]

No need to remove the clear strip. When they are stacked in the bundle the clear strip is over the adhesive spots on the shingle below to keep them from sticking together. When put on the roof shingles are offset and the clear strip in just in contact with the deck. When on the roof the adhesive spot sticks to the bottom of the shingle above.

^^^ This

 

[AlwaysFixingSomething]

No need to remove the clear strip. When they are stacked in the bundle the clear strip is over the adhesive spots on the shingle below to keep them from sticking together. When put on the roof shingles are offset and the clear strip in just in contact with the deck. When on the roof the adhesive spot sticks to the bottom of the shingle above.

This has been said like 200 times today all over this forum you are late to the party

 

[351cmach]

If i did a roof on my own house and it failed i wouldn't expect my insurance to pay for it because I'm not a professional licensed roofer . A bad roof job won't burn my house down or electrocute me though

So if you do your own brakes and crash into another car. You wouldn't expect your insurance company to pay?

 

[351cmach]

Time for me to bow out of this thread I"m becoming commical.

 

[AlwaysFixingSomething]

So if you do your own brakes and crash into another car. You wouldn't expect your insurance company to pay?

Comparing a brake job to wiring a house is comparing apples to acorns not in the same category of danger or difficulty. I have never heard of in my lifetime someone getting into an accident because of doing a brake job wrong.

I do hear often houses burning and people being electrocuted all the time.

 

[AlwaysFixingSomething]

Did you get your uncle, grandfather, grandmother, daughter, 6 year old son electricians to pull a permit for you yet? What's the update?

 

[351cmach]

Did you get your uncle, grandfather, grandmother, daughter, 6 year old son electricians to pull a permit for you yet? What's the update?

we are all watching you tube trying to figure out how to fill out this permit application

 

[straps57]

Just wire the thing already. Last I checked this was "aMerica".

 

[James-W]

I stopped and had a nice long talk with my insurance agent today about this very subject. Long story short, the insurance company will cover you even though you may have done something completely stupid, IN MOST CASES. If it can be shown that your botched wiring job was so bad it could be considered arson, then you MAY have a problem. But normally speaking, even though you screwed up and wired something wrong, you are still covered. However, this applies only to your insurance coverage of your property. You MAY be on the hook for damage to other property and subject to fines under certain circumstances.

For example, if you do wiring without a permit and having it inspected, and you botch up the job, and your screw-up causes a fire that spreads to other homes nearby, you MAY be liable for damages to their property. Also, if it can be shown you did wiring without a permit and having it inspected, you may be subject to some hefty fines from the city or county, etc. These things are not "for sure" they are just possibilities depending on the exact circumstances.

But the main point of this is, the insurance company will pay, in most cases, even for stupidity. My insurance agent also said, to be safe, if you want to do it yourself, get a permit and have it inspected. If you do that you can potentially save yourself a whole lot of grief.

 

[AlwaysFixingSomething]

I stopped and had a nice long talk with my insurance agent today about this very subject. Long story short, the insurance company will cover you even though you may have done something completely stupid, IN MOST CASES. If it can be shown that your botched wiring job was so bad it could be considered arson, then you MAY have a problem. But normally speaking, even though you screwed up and wired something wrong, you are still covered. However, this applies only to your insurance coverage of your property. You MAY be on the hook for damage to other property and subject to fines under certain circumstances.

For example, if you do wiring without a permit and having it inspected, and you botch up the job, and your screw-up causes a fire that spreads to other homes nearby, you MAY be liable for damages to their property. Also, if it can be shown you did wiring without a permit and having it inspected, you may be subject to some hefty fines. These things are not "for sure" they are just possibilities depending on the exact circumstances.

But the main point of this is, the insurance company will pay, in most cases, even for stupidity. My insurance agent also said, to be safe, if you want to do it yourself, get a permit and have it inspected. If you do that you can potentially save yourself a whole lot of grief.

Your insurance company can't speak for other insurance companies.

This was taken right from an insurance website:

The Company will not pay for loss or damage caused by or resulting from any of the following:
Faulty, inadequate or defective:
(1) Planning, zoning, development, surveying, siting;

(2) Design, specifications, workmanship, repair, construction, renovation, remodeling, grading, compaction;

(3) Materials used in repair, construction, renovation or remodeling; or (4) Maintenance;

of part or all of any property on or off an insured premises.

 

[BDT/NWMN]

Comparing a brake job to wiring a house is comparing apples to acorns not in the same category of danger or difficulty. I have never heard of in my lifetime someone getting into an accident because of doing a brake job wrong.



Well, maybe only us guys who have/had Tech School Degrees, Full GM Goodwrench and ASE Certification; and work for Licensed and Insured Dealerships should be working on brake systems....... Care to hear about a couple fatal crashes?? No problem...For One: Another Dealership and a machine shop were dragged into court and sued by a drunk after he skidded through a stop sign and killed a young fellow ... The drunk just had his brakes repaired by a ""professional"" who '''threw""" rotors and drums back on that had been cut beyond limits by the machine shop...... There was proof the drunk had tried to stop; and the faulty brakes contributed to the severity of the crash...... So called """pro""" ,,, ya enough said..... Are you Certified or trained to properly diagnose problems with ABS ...????? Just like Electricians, Crop Sprayers, Medical Personnel, or any other Trade or Profession: The Automotive Technicians had best know what the heck they are doing..... There are many Do-It-Yourselfers who take their projects rather seriously and would not have reused those rotors and drums..... The attitude of the person who is doing the work is reflected in the completed task; whether it relates to a house, auto, or anything else..

I am another one who has no time for hack jobs on any type of work.. Sadly, the hack jobs are done by ""pro"" and shadetree alike...... I enjoy being around People who take Pride in their Work... I believe we are on the same page with this paragraph... If you have a question on a brake system, feel free to ask... If I have a question on electrical, I will do the same....or, I'll spend 45 minutes on the phone with the electrical inspector.... But if I have a question, no stone will be left unturned till I get the answer and understand the reasoning behind it...

 

[James-W]

Your insurance company can't speak for other insurance companies.

Perhaps not, but realistically, is one insurance company going to pay claims involving stupidity if the other insurance companies aren't?

If you really want to know the answer, then do what I did, go talk with your insurance agent.

 

[AlwaysFixingSomething]

Perhaps not, but realistically, is one insurance company going to pay claims involving stupidity if the other insurance companies aren't?

If you really want to know the answer, then do what I did, go talk with your insurance agent.

I'm no expert on the subject at all I'm just thinking in a common sense way. Why would an insurance company pay for damages resulting from someone unqualified doing the work. It's common sense not to. What insurance companies do I have no control over. I have just read about the topic on another electrical forum I belong to. DIYers are a topic over there from time to time.

It's like me giving a loan to a stranger to start a business. Would I give them money without knowing they have experience running a successful business? no way. Too much risk.

If insurance companies pay for faulty work done by homeowners ok...not the first strange thing I've heard in my life

 

[A_Pmech]

You missed the last paragraph from that standard bit of boilerplate:

However, in the event an excluded cause of loss that is listed in 3.a. through 3.c. above results in a Covered Cause of Loss, the Company will be liable only for such resulting loss or damage.

What the exclusion states is that the insurance company will not pay for the replacement of the faulty wiring. However, insurance policies almost universally have an "ensuing loss" coverage. In other words, they WILL pay for any ensuing loss resulting FROM the faulty wiring.

http://www.irmi.com/expert/articles/2007/levin04.aspx

Your insurance company can't speak for other insurance companies.

This was taken right from an insurance website:

The Company will not pay for loss or damage caused by or resulting from any of the following:
Faulty, inadequate or defective:
(1) Planning, zoning, development, surveying, siting;

(2) Design, specifications, workmanship, repair, construction, renovation, remodeling, grading, compaction;

(3) Materials used in repair, construction, renovation or remodeling; or (4) Maintenance;

of part or all of any property on or off an insured premises.

 

[Kevin C]

It has been discussed before on electrical forums I belong to it's not "alarmist tripe".

Why is it so strange for an insurance company to deny a claim from faulty diy work? Who cares if it passed inspection the inspectors miss a lot of stuff trust me on that. They don't check every splice with a wire nut or every outlet to see if the screws are tight for example. All it takes is a loose wire on an outlet and you could have a fire if it's not on a AFCI circuit. People are sneaky too they hide a lot of ****.

I doubt insurance companies are going to back people who get their knowledge from garage journal and youtube But I'm sure they will back a contractor that is licensed because they have the proper training. Because odds are the contractor that has been trained will result in fewer problems. Sure the pros make mistakes everyone does but it's safe to say the DIYers make more mistakes because they lack the training.

The whole business model of an insurance company is to make money not pay out claims. Why would they take a huge risk backing unqualified people doing dangerous work? Does that make financial sense to you?

The business model works like this. I buy a house. The folks that lent me the money don't want to be left holding the bag if something bad happens so I have to get insurance. They also are pretty particular about the coverage. The insurance companies know what needs to be covered to be allowed to provide the policy. Wrong coverage = no loan.

An insurance policy is a contract. A legal document that says exactly what is covered and what is not. Its binding... Both ways.

This is the paragraph in my policy that is specific to this discussion.

Exclusions:

Section 1 Form 56-5274

4: Faulty, inadequate or defective planning, zoning, development, surveying, sitting, design, specifications, workmanship, construction, grading, compaction, maintenance repair materials, constructions, remodeling, or maintenance of part or all of any property ( including land, structures or any improvements) whether on or off the residence premises.

Short story: No matter who does the work, if its faulty you're not covered! They don't "back" anyone, pro, DIY or space aliens.


The upside is there is this foot note:

However, we do cover ensuing loss by fire, explosion or sudden and accidental discharge of water.

Basically, if the work causes a fire, explosion of water damage, no matter the cause you're covered.

This is pretty typical.

My policy has an exclusion for Nuclear Hazards.... If my house has radiation damage, I'm not covered, unless it catches fire. Then I'm covered for the fire.

EDIT: I was a bit slow typing. A_Pmech had the same basic reply.

 

[AlwaysFixingSomething]

I personally am done talking about the insurance topic. Like i said if insurance companies pay for damages from untrained unqualified people doing electric work fine. Like i said it's not the first strange thing I've heard in my lifetime.

 

[volleyball]

I think if a guy came here and said I cannot get anyone to wire my place so I am going to do it myself with used wire from the dumpster, wire all the outlets with 220/221 to make sure I have enough power and feed the 100a sub panel with an old extension cord laid on the ground then we would all be in agreement with you need someone who knows what they are doing.
You need someone with an understanding of electricity just as a brake job needs someone who understands brakes. A guy could be a master engine builder and not be qualified to do a brake job.
An industrial electrician may be less qualified than a homeowner to do residential work.

 

[Mustang51js]

I just had my sisters boyfriend work with me and he thinks he know everything,had him remove 4 outlets and said he's fine,he won't get shocked. Well out of those 4 outlets he shocked himself 6 times,and I couldn't even tell you how lol. He's the type of person that will think he's a electrician from removing those outlets. I tried telling him it's in the technique but guess he liked doing it his way. These are things you learn from experience over the years and can't get in a book

 

[Morrison]

......

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

I just had my sisters boyfriend work with me and he thinks he know everything,had him remove 4 outlets and said he's fine,he won't get shocked. Well out of those 4 outlets he shocked himself 6 times,and I couldn't even tell you how lol. He's the type of person that will think he's a electrician from removing those outlets. I tried telling him it's in the technique but guess he liked doing it his way. These are things you learn from experience over the years and can't get in a book

Anytime I get shocked I know exactly why,From being a dumb ***!

 

[James-W]

If you are getting shocked maybe you should have used your head and turned off the circuit breaker.

 

[351cmach]

Hack - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

Just tighten the f ing things down by feel scrap the torque wrench bs. That's what i do but i do this for a living, i know by feel how tight a lug needs to be tightened.

Yeah who gives a **** what the inside of the jbox the op has pictured

 

[351cmach]

I started this thread on a rant. A lot of you have some good information and ideas. I can pay an electrician to pull a permit and do the work myself. I know I have enough common sense to get the job done. There are a few things I am unsure of, and man enough to admit it. That's why I would like to hire an electrician. Sure I could google it or you tube, but would feel better knowing it is done right and not have to worry about it.

I take pride in my workmanship weather my own or someone else's. I'll take the extra time to make it neat weather it can be seen or not. I know when I'm done with the job I've done the best I can.

ZMAXMOTORSPORTS, nice work

 

[Nakashige]

What I did was, I had my electrician pull permit then I ran all the wiring. Then he came in an checked everything and made the connections in my panel. I am in Central MASS

 

[frankush]

Talk about a screwed up thread. I read most of it and wish I hadn't. Most homeowners are afraid of working on anything electrical and I really think that's a good thing.

 

[351cmach]

Talk about a screwed up thread.

I agree. I find it comical.