Load Bearing Roof Supports?

[Derek8819]

I have an architect coming look at my over garage attic space to see about converting it into a bonus room for my toys. Do you think these supports are load bearing or just left over from when the house was built? They do not feel that they have any weight on them.

Derek

These are near front gable and go down to the garage roof/floor. There is no support under in the garage. I am looking at the vertical support, it is in the middle of where the "bonus" room would be.

This is near the house where it meets the garage. I could see this one meets on a load supporting wall, but what is it actually supporting like it is?

 

[cj7365]

It really looks like those where put in place during the building process, looking at the rough cuts, but glad your getting the the experts advice on it

 

[Orionrising]

I think they held up the ridge with them before they put the rafters on and didn't bother to take em out

 

[Derek8819]

That the plan is to have a professional look at it. Two engineers/architects have been over so far and decided not to pursue my project as it was too small scale/bonus room. I am looking still for the "professional" to take it on. I was going to pull these if I got a definitive answer just so I could get a better "look" at the space, but I am just not 100% sure why they are here. I think the big one in the first pic is left over (my neighbor has same house and it doesn't exist in theirs). The second one seems like it was just there to mount the attic lights, but since it connects (somewhat) to a support wall I am not sure.

 

[Chris705]

My initial thought is vertical support isn't doing much of anything(a long single 2x6 to a ridge board) could have been left in place by framing contractor or added by well meaning home owner. You have an architect coming to look at finishing off this area let him access the situation. I do see a couple other vertical members with stiffeners. Your roof pitch looks steep and when framing w/ rafters the framer often will need to securely hold a couple of these rafters in place to finish setting the rest in place. Do ask the architect if he feels there is adequate rafter ties up high on the rafters. But unless the rafters and hips are undersized I believe the architect will say the vertical members can be removed. When's the meeting?

 

[Chris705]

How old is the house? Are the builders plans available?

 

[Derek8819]

IT was built in 2006, no plans that I have been able to find are available. I am the second owner, purchased in 2011. See above post about my luck finding someone to look at it.

 

[Chris705]

Perhaps the building dept might have copies of your house plans, worth a phone call to inquire. Or perhaps they may know who the developer or architect was?

 

[Jlbc212]

Hip roofs don't usually require a vertical support like that. Start cutting it with a hand saw. If the handsaw doesn't bind as you progress with the cut, the support isn't doing anything and as others have suggested, it was probably installed by the framers to support and hold the ridge beam in place while they framed the other rafters.

 

[yeldogt]

Always nice/best to get professional help. I have had good luck asking the local code official regarding the location of a professional for a small job. They often know a retired structural engineer or architect working in the area.

Most recently found a great guy in his 80's that did my small addition drawings.

 

[theoldwizard1]

These are near front gable and go down to the garage roof/floor. There is no support under in the garage. I am looking at the vertical support, it is in the middle of where the "bonus" room would be.

They are only "truly" loaf bearing if they have a "path" to transferring the load they are carrying to the foundation. In the picture below, it looks like they are "bridging" a couple of the floor joist. While this helps carry the load, it now where near adequate. Note also, that the top 2x6 is not new lumber and is split. One of the 2x4 is twisted.

Before removing this vertical 2x4 I would add more collar ties.

I can't figure out the other pictures. It looks like just a "mailer" for the electrician to run his wire for lighting !

 

[bczygan]

You are in an awkward position.

Architects typically are space planners. They define spaces and functions and uses. The jobs they look for are ones where additional spaces are being created, or where existing spaces are being massively remodeled.

Engineers typically stick to commercial and industrial.

On the other end, carpenters may know how to frame things up when there is conventional designs, but they don't know how to actually do the calculations to engineer a problem.

Builders are usually project managers with a carpentry background.

You need a guy who can engineer the space, and then just a builder to finish it off.

Here's my take.

The first thing I would do is to look at the joists. If they were sized as ceiling joists for the floor below, they may not be adequate as floor joists for the attic space if it is to be converted to usable and habitable space.

Once that has been investigated and determinations made, the next thing is to look at the space and see how it will be finished.

Are you going to add windows? Are there existing dormers that will have windows? Will short knee walls be installed near the eaves? If so, that cuts the span of the rafters which reduces the loads on each span.

Will a horizontal ceiling be framed and finished? If so, with proper connections to the rafters, you create triangulation and a sort of truss that also transfers loads better. This makes up for the fact that you will be adding the loads of drywall to the roof structure.

I don't like hip roofs. The hip is adding loads to the last rafter pair, and the ridge board an a lot of cases fails and if there aren't good connections between the joists and walls, you have push out of the walls by the rafters and swayback of the roof ridge.

That's why there is a vertical member right at the end of the ridge, where the hip begins.

If you are adding a horizontal ceiling and associated framing, this will reinforce the whole structure above that ceiling and the vertical post will not be necessary. Worse case, a ridge beam and doubled rafters at that point will make up for the removed post.

Bill

 

[David C]

Yes, the 2x4 vertical support shown in your photo is acting as a structural member. You should not cut or remove it. Even if it doesn't appear to be fully loaded. Do not remove the collar tie, in the foreground, either. Think about camel backs and straws.

If you look closely at your roof framing there is no vertical structural support of the roof at the ridge where the hip roof framing comes together.

I have seen architects design residential structures like yours without providing detailed information on how the framing is to be constructed. They leave the structural engineering for the contractor to design on site. Hence the support system you have.

Note that if the framing you want to remove was only shoring the contractor would have removed it. What keeps your roof from partially collapsing is that your roof framing is pressing outward on your walls and the roof diaphragm (OSB) is transfering those loads to other parts of your structure. This design can be characterized as it "might work".

Any compentent engineer would be hesitant to take on your project because the solution would be onerous to you. I don't know about you personally but most homeowners simply wouldn't implement the repair and would be angry at the designer in the bargain. Maybe even not pay the design fee.

There are partial repairs that would improve the structural support of the roof but most engineers are reluctant to provide designs that "might work". Any engineer that would do that kind of repair you wouldn't want. (See Joseph Hellers book http://www.amazon.com/dp/1451626657/?tag=atomicindus08-20)

When or if your roof will sag or settle, or worse, can not be predicted. The only advice any professional could, or should, give you is to get your roof framing repaired.

Mr Bczygan is correct and has provided you with plan on how to move forward.

 

[PAToyota]

You are in an awkward position.

Architects typically are space planners. They define spaces and functions and uses. The jobs they look for are ones where additional spaces are being created, or where existing spaces are being massively remodeled.

Engineers typically stick to commercial and industrial.

On the other end, carpenters may know how to frame things up when there is conventional designs, but they don't know how to actually do the calculations to engineer a problem.

Builders are usually project managers with a carpentry background.

You need a guy who can engineer the space, and then just a builder to finish it off.

No offense, but not all of that is true.

As a registered architect, both my education and licensing exams included engineering (structural as well as mechanical, electrical, & plumbing). No, I’m not going to go out and design a bridge or the structure for a twenty story office building. But I regularly do the engineering work for residential and smaller commercial/industrial projects. I’m also the one who does the codes review for my projects and I coordinate the work of all the engineering consultants on a project to make sure it all works together. If you want “space planning” you’re probably looking for an interior designer - a service I’ll also provide.

Similarly, I’ll bring in engineering consultants for any size project - including residential projects - when it is beyond the scope of my abilities. You probably don’t want to go to the local office of some international conglomerate engineering firm for something like this, but there are plenty of engineers that will do consulting projects by the hour.

I’ll mostly agree on the carpenters and builders. In most cases, any licensing is basically registration and payment of fees - no certification exams or required training. Not to say that someone doesn't have training, but in most places you can go buy a hammer, pay a fee to the state or local jurisdiction, slap a magnetic sign on the side of your pickup truck, and you're in business as a carpenter, builder, or contractor. Some of the larger firms may have an architect or engineer on staff and may have gained experience over the years for what works in “typical” situations. But most are unlikely to have any formal training or certification for designing a structure.

Without seeing everything in person, I really cannot confirm 100% whether that is structural or not. But my guess (only from what I have seen) is along the lines of other comments. The first thing I see is that the 2x4 is unbraced. For that length, if it were structural it would need to be braced so that it didn’t bow out in the middle from the weight it was supporting - particularly since the narrow dimension is facing the face of the gable. That they’re just rough cut and toenailed adds to that guess. The “box” that the main “support” is sitting on continues to add to the guess. None of it “looks” structural.

 

[PAToyota]

I have seen architects design residential structures like yours without providing detailed information on how the framing is to be constructed. They leave the structural engineering for the contractor to design on site. Hence the support system you have.

Frankly, if my design did not provide detailed structural information, it would not be approved by the local code department. As noted above, contractors typically have no authority to “design on site.”

I do agree that the collar tie is likely structural.

 

[CNGsaves]

With the "cluster tie" of all those rafters coming together, that whole setup looks pretty weak to withstand any pressure . . . . like say hurricane winds in New Orleans !!!!

I'd beef EVERYTHING up while you're up there in attic. Rafter/collar ties, add cross bracing, etc. Maybe it's just me, but I don't get any sort of confidence when looking at roof built like that. Horizontal supports surely need beefed up if you're going for "living space" or storage with any weight. Good luck.

P.S. Does New Orleans have hurricane strap requirements like Florida, etc??

 

[ZRH`]

Is this the hip rafter to the ridge board?

You've gotten some good advice already but yeah, dont remove anything yet.

 

[theoldwizard1]

First, this is really crappy framing work ! I am surprised it actually passed inspection with a gap that big.

Yes, the 2x4 vertical support shown in your photo is acting as a structural member.

If that statement is true, the roof is in danger of collapse, because that 2x4 supporting the rigid beam is in danger of failing ! The little bridge iit is rest on is already tilt.

More collar tie, on both the short and long side will make a big difference.

 

[bczygan]

No offense, but not all of that is true.

As a registered architect, both my education and licensing exams included engineering (structural as well as mechanical, electrical, & plumbing). No, I’m not going to go out and design a bridge or the structure for a twenty story office building. But I regularly do the engineering work for residential and smaller commercial/industrial projects. I’m also the one who does the codes review for my projects and I coordinate the work of all the engineering consultants on a project to make sure it all works together. If you want “space planning” you’re probably looking for an interior designer - a service I’ll also provide.

Similarly, I’ll bring in engineering consultants for any size project - including residential projects - when it is beyond the scope of my abilities. You probably don’t want to go to the local office of some international conglomerate engineering firm for something like this, but there are plenty of engineers that will do consulting projects by the hour.

I’ll mostly agree on the carpenters and builders. In most cases, any licensing is basically registration and payment of fees - no certification exams or required training. Not to say that someone doesn't have training, but in most places you can go buy a hammer, pay a fee to the state or local jurisdiction, slap a magnetic sign on the side of your pickup truck, and you're in business as a carpenter, builder, or contractor. Some of the larger firms may have an architect or engineer on staff and may have gained experience over the years for what works in “typical” situations. But most are unlikely to have any formal training or certification for designing a structure.

Without seeing everything in person, I really cannot confirm 100% whether that is structural or not. But my guess (only from what I have seen) is along the lines of other comments. The first thing I see is that the 2x4 is unbraced. For that length, if it were structural it would need to be braced so that it didn’t bow out in the middle from the weight it was supporting - particularly since the narrow dimension is facing the face of the gable. That they’re just rough cut and toenailed adds to that guess. The “box” that the main “support” is sitting on continues to add to the guess. None of it “looks” structural.

Let me backtrack a little and agree with you. Small firms, and especially one man firms can, and do provide the services you describe.

What I was trying to say, and said badly, is that like many homeowners, his job and budget isn't big enough to attract the interest of many of those, who are trained to do it. But it requires expertise that a work a day carpenter doesn't typically have.

And Architects do provide engineering services in the residential designs they do. They size all the structural members. And those sizes are indicated on the drawings.

Your idea about a structural consult by the hour is a great idea. Then he can hire a builder or carpenter to do the construction.

Bill

 

[srmofo]

First, this is really crappy framing work ! I am surprised it actually passed inspection with a gap that big.

I think that might be the picture angle playing tricks. A picture straight up into the joint would tell the whole story.

When you cut a board at an angle other than 90° the length of that side increases which is why you see the bottom portion of that cut.

As far as the vertical 2x4 goes. I would guess its not structural because of all the sloppy work done to it, but without being able to asses the rest of the situation thats only a WAG. If it is structural then you have problems that need addressed ASAP. And I would add more ties regardless

 

[PAToyota]

Your idea about a structural consult by the hour is a great idea. Then he can hire a builder or carpenter to do the construction.

I do consultations - typically at a reduced hourly rate if they’re just asking questions or having me look at something and offer my opinion. I charge my normal rate if they want something “official” - whether it is a sealed drawing or letter or such. Anything “official” counts toward my liability insurance. I spend 20~30% of my net income between licensing and insurance - add in taxes and I there are days I wonder why I bother trying to make a living at this.

But you’re right. A lot of firms don’t want to be bothered by the little stuff. By the time I’ve talked to someone on the phone, travelled out to look at things, gone back to the office, possibly done some research, and taken the time to write things up you’re going to have a few hours into the project and it’s not going to be the $20 to $40 some people seem to think it should be.

 

[Purple Shark]

I have always enjoyed this forum but until now never posted. First, I would be shocked if this was approved by any local inspector. A hipped roof is not a newly invented structure; every aspect is covered by the building code. You do not need a structural engineer to repair this roof. Check the code for the correct rafter size and spacing for your region. An architect is an expert at code compliance and design, not Mike Brady from the Brady Bunch, and can easily advise on shoring this up if necessary. That said, a competent Licensed General Contractor can also easily repair the framing if necessary. You will need one or the other, check with the building inspector.
Second, pull a building permit. If the rafters are undersized, sister the correct size rafters next to the undersized rafters and properly secure same as per the code. If the spacing is incorrect, add rafters. Replace or sister the rafters that are poorly installed. Once everything is up to code, add strong ties to all joints. Then remove the temporary supports.
One last observation. I spent a lot of years framing houses and if you look closely at the support post you will see that the nails holding it up have rusted and weathered. This may imply that the support was put in place to help in the initial setting of the ridge pole, a common framing technique and spent time exposed to the elements. My guess is they just left it in pace when they closed in the roof.

 

[bczygan]

I have always enjoyed this forum but until now never posted. First, I would be shocked if this was approved by any local inspector. A hipped roof is not a newly invented structure; every aspect is covered by the building code. You do not need a structural engineer to repair this roof. Check the code for the correct rafter size and spacing for your region. An architect is an expert at code compliance and design, not Mike Brady from the Brady Bunch, and can easily advise on shoring this up if necessary. That said, a competent Licensed General Contractor can also easily repair the framing if necessary. You will need one or the other, check with the building inspector.
Second, pull a building permit. If the rafters are undersized, sister the correct size rafters next to the undersized rafters and properly secure same as per the code. If the spacing is incorrect, add rafters. Replace or sister the rafters that are poorly installed. Once everything is up to code, add strong ties to all joints. Then remove the temporary supports.
One last observation. I spent a lot of years framing houses and if you look closely at the support post you will see that the nails holding it up have rusted and weathered. This may imply that the support was put in place to help in the initial setting of the ridge pole, a common framing technique and spent time exposed to the elements. My guess is they just left it in pace when they closed in the roof.

Welcome to the forum. We can always use more well informed advice. What part of the country are you in?

Bill

 

[Derek8819]

First off, THANK you all for the insight as to my situation and all of your experience being shared here. My responses (red) and additional photos below.

Here's my take.

The first thing I would do is to look at the joists. If they were sized as ceiling joists for the floor below, they may not be adequate as floor joists for the attic space if it is to be converted to usable and habitable space.

They are 2x10s

Once that has been investigated and determinations made, the next thing is to look at the space and see how it will be finished.

Are you going to add windows? Are there existing dormers that will have windows? Will short knee walls be installed near the eaves? If so, that cuts the span of the rafters which reduces the loads on each span.

There is an existing dormer without a window, I wanted this to be a "built in" TV entertainment center. I would like short knee walls (possibly with the addition of storage cubby type drawers.

Bill

Existing dormer, would need to be reworked for my purpose.

Better photo looking up main vertical "support" and at the base.

This is what I would like the interior structure of the "bonus" room to look like.

 

[Derek8819]

bump

 

[G McKay]

I think they held up the ridge with them before they put the rafters on and didn't bother to take em out

I'll take a stab at it and go along with this.

 

[Peter Mc Mahon]

My experience is hands on framing (7 years residential) only. No schooling , so take this for what it's worth. I am assuming the floor joist run parallel to the collar tie in the first picture posted? Also I think you said these are 2x 10 rafters? Your local codes would dictate, but I would be surprised if you require collar ties, also the vertical member is just left over from framing in my opinion. Is there a bearing wall under that support? Probably not because it isn't a bearing point. The framing looks good and neat. No issues there at all

 

[CNGsaves]

2nd PIC from 1st post by OP:

OP, you need to pursue the LEAK(s) that are happening at peak. See the wet marks on the rafters?? See the mildew/mold in peak?? See where water has been running down the boards.

Don't be in any hurry to close that all up, until all leaks are fixed. Good luck.

 

[nehog]

OP, you need to pursue the LEAK(s) that are happening at peak. See the wet marks on the rafters?? See the mildew/mold in peak?? See where water has been running down the boards.

Don't be in any hurry to close that all up, until all leaks are fixed. Good luck.

I may see shadows, but leaks?

 

[CNGsaves]

^ ^ Darkened wood where you can tell it's wet. Direction of darker wood is in pattern of water running downhill.

There's surely a drip pattern underneath that peak on ceiling down below.

 

[Derek8819]

My experience is hands on framing (7 years residential) only. No schooling , so take this for what it's worth. I am assuming the floor joist run parallel to the collar tie in the first picture posted? Also I think you said these are 2x 10 rafters? Your local codes would dictate, but I would be surprised if you require collar ties, also the vertical member is just left over from framing in my opinion. Is there a bearing wall under that support? Probably not because it isn't a bearing point. The framing looks good and neat. No issues there at all

You are correct and there is no support under the vertical "support".

^ ^ Darkened wood where you can tell it's wet. Direction of darker wood is in pattern of water running downhill.

There's surely a drip pattern underneath that peak on ceiling down below.

It is only a shadow, no water leak.

 

[Falcon67]

I'm in the group with "no", the verticals are not supporting anything, merely left over from framing. And that collar tie isn't doing anything but providing a hand hold or a place to hang a drop light. I used plenty of vertical supports for the ridge when I framed my shop and I took them all out when the rafter's were in place. Because that's what rafters do - lay against the ridge and the ridge carries no or very little weight.