Quality control like this cost us the import wars

[propav8r]

I should snap some photos of my daily driver 1983 Volvo Turbo wagon. Looks a hell of a lot better than that, and it has 338,000 miles on it.

 

[SK Eric]

Thankfully, these are problems of the past, since a great majority of auto welds are now done with robots.

Now that your chassis is clean, OP, it won't take tons of prep time to re-do those welds. I bet you could grind down the nastiest of the welds, splatter and mig wire in a couple of hours. It'll be satisfying.

 

[justanengineer]

JMO but looking at the pics I dont believe those are robot welds, too much inconsistency. It looks like the weldor ran into EVERY possible problem, not just one or two repeatedly bc a jig or part was slightly out of position.

 

[Ilikeike]

My front sub off my 68 camaro wasn't much better,they just blasted it with the welder. zip zap next....
I ground and re-welded most of it before it went to powdercoat.

 

[Modern Jess]

From late 60's to about 1985 was a terrible time for cars. Manufacturers were devoting up to half their engineering effort to safety requirements and emissions controls.

Engineering is not manufacturing. This is a manufacturing defect.

 

[Modern Jess]

No they didn't.

I think this went over most people's heads. But I lol'd.

 

[bhays]

No, I laughed pretty hard when I saw that too. I am planning to do quite a bit of work to the frame including adding gussets and other things per the Chevy power manual so I will be going over pretty much the entire frame and you can bet that I will be cleaning up and re welding a lot of this. It just struck me as odd that this was ever something acceptable in a manufacturing environment.

 

[Modern Jess]

It just struck me as odd that this was ever something acceptable in a manufacturing environment.

I already hold GM in pretty poor esteem, but I am surprised at that too.

 

[tcianci]

It was acceptable. It worked for over 3 decades and will continue to do so if you leave it alone. That's what production manufacturing is about...A reasonable service life at the lowest possible cost. Your frame itself actually looks to be in very good condition. Admittedly, the welding is not pretty but it was certainly adequate.

And for you yahoos w ho claim they have never welded in their lives and could do a better job, I hope you're shooting from the lip. It's not as easy as it seems, especially if you plan on doing something that takes a pounding like an automobile frame.

I find it interesting that one guy suspects that the welding on his automobile frame is insufficient and a whole crowd of armchair structural experts chimes in and condemns everything that a manufacturer has done in the last 40 years.

 

[Anarius]

I think the issue isn't if the welds will hold - obviously they did. I think we are all mourning the death of craftsmanship here. Computers and robots sure make precision manufacturing easier, but a lot of "soul" is missing from things made today. I think OP is surprised that a vehicle that had such a large number of hand-welded parts shows no pride. No craftsmanship, no give-a-****.

When I make something - especially as part of my job - I do it not only to standards that make ME happy with the job I've done, but to a standard that I would have NO problem with any other professional scrutinizing my work for flaws. Does anyone here think that a professional welder would look at that frame, and say "I couldn't have done it better?".

I don't work in a "production" environment, but I am paid per job. It is worth it to me to produce less work that is more.

 

[Kev442]

Ah, the famous end of the run Corvettes. In 1981 this fresh faced 17 y o swung by the Chevy dealer with his HS buddies and spotted a Corvette on the showroom floor. We rushed over to check it out. We thought the drivers door had been left half open by someone else. Nope. After slamming it shut we discovered that quality control on 1981 Corvettes allowed for a door misalignment approaching 1".

After some WTF's and head scratching, we left.

Oh yeah, I just remembered there was a flaw in the gel coat about 1/2" long on that door right by the handle. They couldn't be bothered to fix it and the poor shmuck who bought it had to look at it every time they went to open the door.

 

[Strouty]

They got better on the '83 model. I've never seen a bad weld on an '83...lol.

I always liked to break the new parts guy in with that. Then when he couldn't find anything, I would ask a radiator for my 1973 VW beetle.

 

[finn]

Just because it lasted this long (and we don't know what kind of history the car had), doesn't mean it is structurally sound.

No one on this forum (or maybe anywhere) would say yes.

I would hope automated welding processes have improved in the 33 years since that frame was welded.

When was the last time you personally inspected the welds on the top side of a new car before you signed on the dotted line?

How many of you have even been inside an automotive assembly plant?

 

[Pluribus]

Geez, someone needed to program that robotic welder to think about baseball.

 

[Modern Jess]

I find it interesting that one guy suspects that the welding on his automobile frame is insufficient and a whole crowd of armchair structural experts chimes in and condemns everything that a manufacturer has done in the last 40 years.

We have far more than just this one example to point to as evidence that GM has been asleep at the wheel for the last 30 years.

 

[mauris69]

No they didn't.

lmao!

 

[mauris69]

Now just who do you think you are, trying to introduce logic into a Detroit-bashing thread?

2nd lmao

 

[bazzateer]

First thing Vermont Sportscar does with their Subaru rally cars is weld every seam.

Standard practice for any rally car build regardless of where the base car was manufactured.

 

[wrench409]

Years ago, there was a funny write up about a guy restoring a Corvette, planning to duplicate every factory screw up right down to the last detail.

Damn, maybe some Corvette owner has that story....it's freaking hilarious!

 

[MBfreak]

I have repaired a 73 Corvette cabriolet which had rolled oversideways at very low speed ( Slid sideways over a wet grass area and then hit the curb at maybe 10 mph, causing it to roll over sideways.) Driver ducked and fortunately no gas leak!
The window frame got bent all the way down. When dismantling I realized that the pillars were joined halfway up the windshield, and in a very bad way.
The top part was crudely pushed down inside the bottom part and a few spotwelds were made. Rainwater had seeped in there for 20 years and there was no strength whatsoever left in this part. The whole assy was covered in chrome covers and rubber sealers, making inspection almost impossible for the owner. However, a tug at top of the windshiels on several similar cars has revealed the same problem.

We bought a new parts and made substantial reinforcements with high strength I profiles inside the new frame. After that all joints were sealed up with tinning.

I advise the OP to have a look at the windshield frame, since it looks like the car is substantially dismantled already. Kudos for a frame off repair. Have the chassis powdercoated , please.


Sorry, no pics of the windowframe, this was before modern cameras.

Attach a pic of a repaired, sandblasted and powdercoated chassis of another 73 Corvette ragtop. Cool summer cars!

Ola

 

[Showkey]

It was acceptable. It worked for over 3 decades and will continue to do so if you leave it alone. That's what production manufacturing is about...A reasonable service life at the lowest possible cost. Your frame itself actually looks to be in very good condition. Admittedly, the welding is not pretty but it was certainly adequate.

And for you yahoos w ho claim they have never welded in their lives and could do a better job, I hope you're shooting from the lip. It's not as easy as it seems, especially if you plan on doing something that takes a pounding like an automobile frame.

Adequate......many times not...........
The older GM's would go negative on camber because over
time the subframe would sag, and when they got bad enough you would run out
of adjustment and still be too negative. There were 2 fixes, the most
common is offset cross shafts for the upper control arms. The other fix
was to tie down the each end of the cross member and jack it up in the
middle to reduce the sag. When the camber numbers were good, you welded up
all the seams in the crossmember the general had missed, a good permanent
fix. They were pretty scary with only a short sloppy weld every few inches
allowing things to move around a bunch. We would always wonder how they
stayed together in the first place........especially in accident scenario.

 

[gungatim]

Years ago, there was a funny write up about a guy restoring a Corvette, planning to duplicate every factory screw up right down to the last detail.

Damn, maybe some Corvette owner has that story....it's freaking hilarious!

just head over to the corvette forum, half the guys on the C3 section can't do anything without the proper chalk marks on their frames...for some reason these models owners are owned by a level of restorer that just makes me scratch my head...which presents a dillema for the OP. if he doesn't leave those ugly welds as they left the factory, he'll never be able to resell it for anything more than scrap a donor car...

 

[justanengineer]

Here's the giggle for this thread - I messaged a friend who happens to be a long term GM employee, Corvette development engineer, and enthusiast, to inquire about manufacturing methods and issues. Those frames were an outsourced component that were manually welded by a human, and yes the quality on many of them did ****. The long and short of it is that it was an angry time between the UAW and GM management, and seeing **** work being accepted by union inspectors was common at GM.

 

[countryroad82]

Not trying to bash anything, just showing my observations. Corvettes, Camaros, Firebirds imo were some of the most shoddy slapped together hot rods that ever left GM plants. My biggest gripe? Caulk. The way they caulk the things from the factory was terrible. Other cars suffered pretty bad, but EVERY 70s-80s 'vette or mulletmobile had just gobs of caulk built up in the trunk, firewall, and every other seam. They threw that stuff at them by the gallons from what I've seen. I can see doors not lining up all that well, same for the hood and trunk. It's a production car. Overspray is fine by me, if it bothered you back in the day you could wipe it off. But the gawd awful caulk monster standing up under the trunk lid on Camaros/Firebirds under the back glass would have drove me insane!! Same goes for the shoddy work on the firewall. If you want 'correct' you got to throw it on thick 'n sloppy!! Me, I let the owner know I'm cleaning that up because if I paint over that mess they tend to forget and then I get yelled at. Just my observations from working on waaayy too many cars over the years, that stands out the most for me. All of them were never close to the standards we expect today, but sheesh some just bug the heck out of me.

 

[darwyn]

We would always wonder how they
stayed together in the first place........especially in accident scenario.

Early crumple zones?

 

[Modern Jess]

just head over to the corvette forum, half the guys on the C3 section can't do anything without the proper chalk marks on their frames...for some reason these models owners are owned by a level of restorer that just makes me scratch my head...which presents a dillema for the OP. if he doesn't leave those ugly welds as they left the factory, he'll never be able to resell it for anything more than scrap a donor car...

A wise man once said:

I don't want my car to be exactly as it was in 1967. I want it to be as I imagined it in 1967.

I think most restorers would do well to remember that phrase.

 

[theoldwizard1]

So .... it lasted 33 years without a problem ? What's the gripe ?? I doubt that any of the car manufacturers care about what the welds on the chassis look like.

TRUTH !

That was likely NOT robot welded. The guy on the line had to work fast and make sure it was strong, Those were the only requirements. Besides, who was ever going to see them.

Also remember at that time, MOST of the auto welding was done with big spot weld guns. Fast on flat lap or pinch joint, Very little welding flash.

 

[gungatim]

Not trying to bash anything, just showing my observations. Corvettes, Camaros, Firebirds imo were some of the most shoddy slapped together hot rods that ever left GM plants. My biggest gripe? Caulk. The way they caulk the things from the factory was terrible. Other cars suffered pretty bad, but EVERY 70s-80s 'vette or mulletmobile had just gobs of caulk built up in the trunk, firewall, and every other seam. They threw that stuff at them by the gallons from what I've seen. I can see doors not lining up all that well, same for the hood and trunk. It's a production car. Overspray is fine by me, if it bothered you back in the day you could wipe it off. But the gawd awful caulk monster standing up under the trunk lid on Camaros/Firebirds under the back glass would have drove me insane!! Same goes for the shoddy work on the firewall. If you want 'correct' you got to throw it on thick 'n sloppy!! Me, I let the owner know I'm cleaning that up because if I paint over that mess they tend to forget and then I get yelled at. Just my observations from working on waaayy too many cars over the years, that stands out the most for me. All of them were never close to the standards we expect today, but sheesh some just bug the heck out of me.

trunk? hmmm on a vette? caulk? guess my '68 427 didn't get that option...

 

[rbtempe]

Is that safe ??

 

[Zrexxer]

Go home, robot; you're drunk!

Not so sure that was welded by a robot... that looks like a bonafide REAL drunk.

 

[rbtempe]

and this guy told his friends he was a welder for GM

 

[rburke65]

Well I started at GM in 1981 as a maintenance electrician and was assigned to the body shop to maintain and repair the welders. There were not any robotic welders there at the Lordstown, Ohio plant at that time. And when we they did arrive they were in their infancy, hydraulic driven and very young in the software department, and the console had 50 toggle switches. Today, all electric, they can't be matched with their quality and repeatability within + or - a few millimeters. Those welds pictured were not applied by a robot. More than likely a 19 year old working his way through college.

 

[countryroad82]

trunk? hmmm on a vette? caulk? guess my '68 427 didn't get that option...

Sigh, I knew there would be a smarta$$ in the crowd. Did you miss the part where I said 70s-80s which I was meaning for the Camaro/Firebird!!??? I'm meaning look at your firewall/cowl area if your car is original, most of those that I have seen were slathered with caulk from the factory. Plus funny how you mentioned you have a 68, aren't those the ones that was considered one of the worst years of fitment/panel alignment when they were new? Guy that I used to moonlight for restores Corvettes for a living and he hates when he gets a '68+ car. He always says 67 was the last year for a Corvette. I do like the C3 myself. Like I said, just a casual observation that I have noticed from the 17 years that I have been steadily been doing paint/bodywork on cars. I wasn't trying to start a pi$$ing match just an observation I have noticed with a particular GM lineup that annoyed the living **** out of me when I get as I call an unfucked with car, as in original.

Were I to have been alive then to be a new car buyer, when I popped the hood or trunk on a new car and saw globs and globs of sealer, I probably would have went out and bought a Mustang.......... Probably not but it would have been fixed before it left the lot for me lol!

 

[gungatim]

Sigh, I knew there would be a smarta$$ in the crowd. Did you miss the part where I said 70s-80s which I was meaning for the Camaro/Firebird!!??? I'm meaning look at your firewall/cowl area if your car is original, most of those that I have seen were slathered with caulk from the factory. Plus funny how you mentioned you have a 68, aren't those the ones that was considered one of the worst years of fitment/panel alignment when they were new? Guy that I used to moonlight for restores Corvettes for a living and he hates when he gets a '68+ car. He always says 67 was the last year for a Corvette. I do like the C3 myself. Like I said, just a casual observation that I have noticed from the 17 years that I have been steadily been doing paint/bodywork on cars. I wasn't trying to start a pi$$ing match just an observation I have noticed with a particular GM lineup that annoyed the living **** out of me when I get as I call an unfucked with car, as in original.

Were I to have been alive then to be a new car buyer, when I popped the hood or trunk on a new car and saw globs and globs of sealer, I probably would have went out and bought a Mustang.......... Probably not but it would have been fixed before it left the lot for me lol!

hey you said it..."but EVERY 70s-80s 'vette or mulletmobile had just gobs of caulk built up in the trunk, firewall, and every other seam."

but whatever, as a C3 vette owner we hear the ignorant comments all the time..."used to have an '83, 68's were horrible, mine was a stingray not a vette, mine had the optional trunk, and was an experimental V6/10/12", that kind of stuff...

and yeah, I was being a smartass...but I do like the mulletmobile comment, may have to co-opt that one...I have a disc of 70's cheese rock I call "mullets and mustaches"...it's a Joe Dirt thing...

 

[Model A Fan]

TOO BIG TO FAIL!!!

 

[justanengineer]

Were I to have been alive then to be a new car buyer, when I popped the hood or trunk on a new car and saw globs and globs of sealer, I probably would have went out and bought a Mustang.......... Probably not but it would have been fixed before it left the lot for me lol!

You must not have looked at too many original Mustangs with that comment. Im working on resto-modding her '68 Mustang and Ford did some similarly funny things. Per your favorite gripe, her car has probably 10 lbs of factory caulk on every seam. Worse tho is that Ford did a VERY nice job painting the interior, floor pans and all with some decently thick and durable paint. Unfortunately either they didnt paint underneath the vinyl roof at all, or they painted with water colors bc there sure wasnt any left when we pulled the vinyl.

 

[Capt Chrysler]

82 Vette, or an 82 Omni. Both built by folks that didn't care. (Chrysler Dealership from 8/83-6/2000). Two tone cars painted with the doors out of alignment so bad the when you got the door to close correctly the paint line was off.

Seem sealer was their best friend. Jigs off and sealer poured in!

Capt. Chrysler

 

[Farmall450]

Thankfully, these are problems of the past, since a great majority of auto welds are now done with robots.

Now that your chassis is clean, OP, it won't take tons of prep time to re-do those welds. I bet you could grind down the nastiest of the welds, splatter and mig wire in a couple of hours. It'll be satisfying.

That was done with a robot!
I agree it won't take long to clean up.

Edit: Guys are saying it was a human now.

 

[paranoid56]

Was the metal used...poor metallurgy.. idiots toyota are. But at least they bought them back or replaced the frames. 99-06 tundras are the same way, but its all frame replacement.

more like Dana corp. they where the ones that fucked this up bad and ended up also paying a **** load of money for their fuckup. toyota fucked up by using a US manufacture

 

[StupidSheet]

Here's the giggle for this thread - I messaged a friend who happens to be a long term GM employee, Corvette development engineer, and enthusiast, to inquire about manufacturing methods and issues. Those frames were an outsourced component that were manually welded by a human, and yes the quality on many of them did ****. The long and short of it is that it was an angry time between the UAW and GM management, and seeing **** work being accepted by union inspectors was common at GM.

So what's their excuse now? LMAO!

more like Dana corp. they where the ones that fucked this up bad and ended up also paying a **** load of money for their fuckup. toyota fucked up by using a US manufacture

Lol, ain't that the truth!