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Bosch coming out with alternative to SawStop...

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kctyphoon

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AND THEN - there's this- which is WHY you will start to see change..

http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/25130/man-wins-big-money-in-tablesaw-lawsuit

http://www.schmidtlaw.com/table-saw-injury-lawyer/


im actually surprised to see so many negative comments about sawstop. really, which saw would YOU want your kids being taught on in school with 20 something kids running around and ******* off.. i dont have kids myself, but $100 in replacement parts sure seems worth it to me compared to possibly loosing a finger or two, especially since my ER co-pay is like $75 now anyway even if it was just for a stitch or two.

the way i see it, if the tech is there, it should be incorperated and then also be made available for the user to disable it, knowing the risks. (seatbelts anyone) as far as the inventor seeking money for his idea - ummm REALLY?? the guy came up with a device that can basically guarantee you or your kids would never lose fingers and you FAULT him for wanting to be compensated to making a 100+ yr old tool SAFE FOR THE FIRST TIME, the same way people do when they come up with a new idea to keep your coffee hot??

personaly - i think some of guys should consider yourselves lucky that your kids still have the opportunity to take a woodshop or autoshop class in HS.. the NYC public school that i went to lost those classes over a decade or 2 ago, which is a shame since 2 yrs of HS shop with an excellent teacher is what taught me most of what i know about actual wood working..
 
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jkwilson

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These cases are perfect examples of why the Saw-Stop owner is disliked. He's there testifying that other saws are unsafe because they don't have his technology. How can a competitor be allowed to testify in a case like this? Conflict of interest is insane. If he cared about safety as much as he acts like in court, he'd do like Volvo did when they invented the three point seatbelt.

AND THEN - there's this- which is WHY you will start to see change..

http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/25130/man-wins-big-money-in-tablesaw-lawsuit

http://www.schmidtlaw.com/table-saw-injury-lawyer/


im actually surprised to see so many negative comments about sawstop. really, which saw would YOU want your kids being taught on in school with 20 something kids running around and ******* off.. i dont have kids myself, but $100 in replacement parts sure seems worth it to me compared to possibly loosing a finger or two, especially since my ER co-pay is like $75 now anyway even if it was just for a stitch or two.

the way i see it, if the tech is there, it should be incorperated and then also be made available for the user to disable it, knowing the risks. (seatbelts anyone) as far as the inventor seeking money for his idea - ummm REALLY?? the guy came up with a device that can basically guarantee you or your kids would never lose fingers and you FAULT him for wanting to be compensated to making a 100+ yr old tool SAFE FOR THE FIRST TIME, the same way people do when they come up with a new idea to keep your coffee hot??

personaly - i think some of guys should consider yourselves lucky that your kids still have the opportunity to take a woodshop or autoshop class in HS.. the NYC public school that i went to lost those classes over a decade or 2 ago, which is a shame since 2 yrs of HS shop with an excellent teacher is what taught me most of what i know about actual wood working..
 

67King

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I just hope this brings the cost down to a point where folks who buy a table saw for one project (e.g. kitchen renovation) can afford it. I'd love something like a sawstop, but I just can't justify a $1200 table saw when I can buy one for $200 (and it is used once every 2-3 years).

That said, I was aware of the sawstop, but not of the tactics of its proprietor. I would disagree that it is common with large corporations. At least in the automotive industry, the OEM's license technology from each other all of the time (I used to be an engineer at Ford). Licensing is very common. There are also alternatives to the consumer if he doesn't like the business practices of one company. If litigation is a threat, then this guy effectively has a monopoly. If it were a product that sold in larger volumes, then he'd likely be faced with anti-trust activities.
 

neophyte

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AND THEN - there's this- which is WHY you will start to see change..

http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/25130/man-wins-big-money-in-tablesaw-lawsuit

http://www.schmidtlaw.com/table-saw-injury-lawyer/


im actually surprised to see so many negative comments about sawstop. really, which saw would YOU want your kids being taught on in school with 20 something kids running around and ******* off.. i dont have kids myself, but $100 in replacement parts sure seems worth it to me compared to possibly loosing a finger or two, especially since my ER co-pay is like $75 now anyway even if it was just for a stitch or two.

the way i see it, if the tech is there, it should be incorperated and then also be made available for the user to disable it, knowing the risks. (seatbelts anyone) as far as the inventor seeking money for his idea - ummm REALLY?? the guy came up with a device that can basically guarantee you or your kids would never lose fingers and you FAULT him for wanting to be compensated to making a 100+ yr old tool SAFE FOR THE FIRST TIME, the same way people do when they come up with a new idea to keep your coffee hot??

personaly - i think some of guys should consider yourselves lucky that your kids still have the opportunity to take a woodshop or autoshop class in HS.. the NYC public school that i went to lost those classes over a decade or 2 ago, which is a shame since 2 yrs of HS shop with an excellent teacher is what taught me most of what i know about actual wood working..

The Sawstop technology hasn't been around long enough to be fully vetted.

It doesn't just cost $100 if you accidentally trigger the device. The cost is the price of the Sawstop cartridge, and the price of your saw blade. Good carbide circular saw blades can cost between $100 and $200, which rings the cost of tripping the device to $200 to $300.

There have been a number of complaints about the Sawstop accidentally tripping due to wood that was too wet, or metal in the wood such as staples or brads, or a coating on the wood that may be conductive, or for reasons that can't be explained. How long do you think a saw that costs $200 to $300 each time the safety device is tripped is going to continue to be used. With older tablesaws the safety devices could be such a pain, users would just toss them in a corner.

There have been safer saws with riving knifes manufactured in Europe for decades. Inca was one brand. The Inca saws were sold in North America from at least the late 1970s, and the design and brand were around for at least a decade or more before then. Some of the safety features on the Sawstop saws are supposedly similar to the Inca saws. Given how long the designs were around I doubt there would have been patent issues using the designs, and they would have made saws safer, and easier to use.

Osorio, the guy who lost his fingers, in the tablesaw lawsuit, wasn't injured because the saw was unsafe. He was injured because he had no safety training, or other training at all with a tablesaw. His employer hadn't trained him with the saw or verified he knew how to safely use it. Osorio had removed all the safety guards, and the rip fence, and was freehand ripping a piece of flooring. There was nothing safe in the way he was using the saw, and if anyone should have gotten sued it was his employer.

There has since been another lawsuit involving the lack of a flesh sensing safety system, and that lawsuit went in favor of Ryobi.

http://www.woodmagazine.com/blogs/w...des-with-ryobi-in-tablesaw-liability-lawsuit/

The issue of Risk compensation should also be considered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation

There are plenty of ways to injure yourself when using power tools, and even hand tools. It's usually better to properly train people to the dangers inherent in the various tools than simply expect some safety system to compensate for a lack of training and expect it to work.

Has anyone checked what would happen if a piece of clothing, like a lightweight baggy shirt, got caught by the blade and pulled your arm in.
 

chiz1180

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good for Bosch, has anyone taken a look at how much sawstop's job site saw costs?
http://www.rockler.com/sawstop-10-in-jobsite-saw
$1300 seems a little bit steep when other saws in that category. Another thing that burns me about sawstop is the sense that it is a perfectly safe saw and nothing bad can happen if you use it, they always fail to mention kickback.
It will be very interesting what Bosch does with this tech.

chiz1180
 

Spudland_Dave

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a little bit of common sense and some training go a VERY long way. many many people make it through their lives without needing unnecessary guarding and extra little help here and there from killing themselves or maiming themselves.

i put the pushers and material holders in the same boat as other tools like material grabbers with suction cups and magnets. you NEVER stick your hand inside a die while the press is running and not blocked up, but some places insist on having guarding in place to prevent people from sticking their fingers in a place that they shouldn't. so instead of teaching people proper procedure and usage of heavy and dangerous machinery, they attempt to block off any and all dangers and avoid telling them how to operate machines safely.....

.......all in all. the answer is not more safeties, the answer is more knowledge and better operating practices. i would like to add that i would rather be sure that what i am doing is safe, than question it after something happens. if i have to reach into a press or other operating area, i will stop it, lock it out, and block the ram up so it can't come down regardless of how safe i think it is because i pulled part of the master start circuit out to prevent it from running or to prevent the brake from disengaging (even though most are supposed to stay clamped all the time). just the same that if i am cutting wood, i am ensuring that the path for my hands is clear and my work area is not cluttered and i'm not going to trip, stumble, or fall into the blade while working. i would rather sacrifice the piece i'm working on cutting than cut my finger off.

Best post of the entire thread!
I don't know how many safety videos or trainings I've been to where the moral of the story is 2 fold, with one root... A) The Most dangerous piece of equipment is the user themselves and B) Complacency is probably the worst.

Best to be scared of the tool, and use your head.

How reliable is a saw stop mechanism anyways? IMHO anything mechanical, anything electrical, etc. is prone to failure too. Having a "Safety" feature which causes you to work unsafely JUST Cause is not proper operating procedure.
 

Sal Bandini

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Look, I wish no one did this stuff but seriously if you said you were only going to purchase from honest companies what car could you drive. How many patent infringements are there when a car has some 30,000 parts. Did your car come from a manufacturer that screwed the guy that invented intermittent wipers, or just from the company that licensed the technology from the company that screwed the guy. That is just one example.

My point is simply this, business men have been screwing things over since the beginning of time. To say I won't do business with this company because the owner threatened to sue all the other manufacturers because they did not use his technology is short sighted at best.

I am all for someone standing on principle and not buying a product for principle reasons. I am just stating that if you apply that principle to everything you could not buy tools or cars or electronics or anything.

It is definitely not everyone else is doing it so whats the problem, I just found it curious that people hated this one guy; yet I would bet that if I looked in their garage they own several things produced by people that have screwed over people even worse.

Why single out SawStop? I have just come to a point where I accept the fact that stuff happens in business and I can not control it. Sometimes I decide to make a stand and not buy the product and sometimes I realize that the effort is futile and will not matter.

In the Table saw market alone I would bet you can not find one manufacture that has a "Clean" record and could match the standards of ethics that some in this forum are placing on SawStop. So what do you do. Use a handsaw?

I am just being practical that's all.

Fair points. I mostly agree with them.
 

purosananto

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I never knew sawstop generated such passion.

I am curious how so many posters know the details of the seemingly confidential licensing discussions that took place after the saw was invented.

My third hand understanding of the licensing discussions was that the hold up was unrelated to money. Instead, the manufactures wanted sawstop to indemnify them from liability for any failures (i.e. failure of the saw to prevent injury). Since sawstop would not be involved in manufacturing or quality control, it didn't feel it was realistic to indemnify the actual manufacturer.
 

Casey69

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interesting. i had heard about this stop system years ago, but didn't know much about it. always wondered why (like so many items), this didn't trickle down to lower-priced saws as the technology improved & become more efficient.

i'd buy one, but can't swing $1200+ for a saw i only use a few times/year tops. i'd guess that the sweet-spot for most occasional table saw users would be an extra $100 for a saw with this feature.
 

TheVintonZoo

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He nearly came to an agreement to license it to Ryobi for 3% royalty of the wholesale cost of any saw that was built with it. That percentage could increase up to 8% max if other manufacturers also came on board. No doubt this was based on the known phenomenon that the technology would be cheaper to produce as more players bought into the game. He's a patent attorney after all.

In terms of his refusal to license his patent now, he really doesn't have a choice. His stop mechanism is what makes his table saw different from the competitors. Licensing the technology now would be slitting his own throat. He is running a saw manufacturing business now. The time for licensing ceased as soon as he had to drop millions to make his own saw.

You wouldn't expect Coke to license their formula to Pepsi would you?

As I understand it, he attempted to license the technology and then decided to use the federal government and the court system to force it on the market when they weren't interested in his terms.

I believe his antitrust suit against them was in progress while he was attempting to license it to Ryobi.

In my mind it is one thing to develop an innovative technology and quite another to use the legal system to shake down your perspective business partners.

My personal preference is to keep my wallet and fingers well clear.
 

LLave

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Met the saw stop guys at the tradeshows many times. Very nice people, good product.
 
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kctyphoon

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The Sawstop technology hasn't been around long enough to be fully vetted.

It doesn't just cost $100 if you accidentally trigger the device. The cost is the price of the Sawstop cartridge, and the price of your saw blade. Good carbide circular saw blades can cost between $100 and $200, which rings the cost of tripping the device to $200 to $300.

There have been a number of complaints about the Sawstop accidentally tripping due to wood that was too wet, or metal in the wood such as staples or brads, or a coating on the wood that may be conductive, or for reasons that can't be explained. How long do you think a saw that costs $200 to $300 each time the safety device is tripped is going to continue to be used. With older tablesaws the safety devices could be such a pain, users would just toss them in a corner.

There have been safer saws with riving knifes manufactured in Europe for decades. Inca was one brand. The Inca saws were sold in North America from at least the late 1970s, and the design and brand were around for at least a decade or more before then. Some of the safety features on the Sawstop saws are supposedly similar to the Inca saws. Given how long the designs were around I doubt there would have been patent issues using the designs, and they would have made saws safer, and easier to use.

Osorio, the guy who lost his fingers, in the tablesaw lawsuit, wasn't injured because the saw was unsafe. He was injured because he had no safety training, or other training at all with a tablesaw. His employer hadn't trained him with the saw or verified he knew how to safely use it. Osorio had removed all the safety guards, and the rip fence, and was freehand ripping a piece of flooring. There was nothing safe in the way he was using the saw, and if anyone should have gotten sued it was his employer.

There has since been another lawsuit involving the lack of a flesh sensing safety system, and that lawsuit went in favor of Ryobi.

http://www.woodmagazine.com/blogs/w...des-with-ryobi-in-tablesaw-liability-lawsuit/

The issue of Risk compensation should also be considered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation

There are plenty of ways to injure yourself when using power tools, and even hand tools. It's usually better to properly train people to the dangers inherent in the various tools than simply expect some safety system to compensate for a lack of training and expect it to work.

Has anyone checked what would happen if a piece of clothing, like a lightweight baggy shirt, got caught by the blade and pulled your arm in.

pretty sure someone pointed out that you can test the material before cutting it to see if you need or may want to turn the safety device off. most people dont have a $200 blade on their tablesaw, and even IF they did - so be it.. my point wasnt that 2 people filed suit against someone who maked a tablesaw - my point was that there are commercials running on tv LOOKING for people that have tablesaw related injuries the same way they look to sue pharmaceutical companies and car manufactures. accidents happen, and regardless of what the circumstance, weather it be the user's fault or someone'e else's - the fact that a reasonable cost could prenevent them is acceptable in most people's eyes.. Bosch is asking more than sawstop cause they know they can get it, and they will now be the only established tool brand label offering that which helps them 2 ways - it gives them a model to offer a safer tool to the public, and it offers them an out to say "we offer a safer model, and you choose to buy another one" if they wind up in court..
also - lets remember, that you can turn it off (on the sawstop model anyway)... personalaly, mine would be in the "off" position most of the time unless i knew i was doing something extraordinary that made me HAVE to have my hands close to the blade.. those situations do occur, and even i dont like having my hands so close sometimes with 20+ years experience with the tool.. at least you would have the option to engage it.. would i ***** if the saftey tripped by accident? - you bet.. would i still ***** the day someone else knocked into me by accident while i was using a saw and it saved 3 fingers? - probably not..
options are never a bad thing to have, and the more people that offer this, the lower the price will come down. your only paying a premium because some people value a hand more than others, and the company knows they came make more money selling less units right now.. like a previous post pointed out - there shouldnt be a HS shop in this country without one of these - the schools know that, and so does sawstop. that is there target market right now.

edit - and just one thing to add. i know its really easy to make decesions when it comes to your own safety, but what about when it comes to someone else's? would you care then if your child lost a finger at HS and you found out "the shop teacher" said he wasnt going to show support to some slimely laywer trying to force everyone to buy his idea? OR, what if you were a contractor supplying tools to the 8 people on your crew? how do you think the workman's comp judge will react when a former employee points out that "you refused" to supply them with a safer model saw while he stands there missing 2 fingers off his right hand in court.. sometimes the extra money few $100 can save alot of people ALOT more money in the long run. but at least there will be options now..
 
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purosananto

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Not to beat a dead horse, but below is an article on the reason why saw stops technology wasn't licensed:

http://www.inc.com/magazine/20050701/disruptor-gass.html

Key quote "If we all stick together and don't license this product, the industry can argue that everybody rejected it so it obviously wasn't viable, thereby limiting any legal liability the industry might face as a result of the new technology."
 

kythri

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Yeah, and key context immediately preceding your key "quote", that you left out:

Then Dan Lanier, national coordinating counsel for Black & Decker, stepped to the podium. His topic: "Evidentiary Issues Relating to SawStop Technology for Power Saws." Lanier spent the next 30 minutes discussing a hypothetical lawsuit -- in which a plaintiff suing a power-saw manufacturer contended the saw was defective because it did not incorporate SawStop's technology -- and suggesting ways defense counsel might respond. Lanier recalls it as a rather dry exploration of legal issues. Gass heard something different. To his ears, Lanier's message was this:

Bolding mine. Your quote is Gass's interpretation. Not an actual quote from anyone present.

Lanier has a legitimate point, though. If they chose to license the tech, and incorporate it on one of their saws, and some half-wit chops his fingers off because he doesn't respect the tool and learn how to use it properly, then they're open to a lawsuit because they "quite obviously" recognized that the saws are unsafe, otherwise why would they have licensed the SawStop technology?

Seriously - if a table saw is unsafe, so is a radial arm saw, a jigsaw, a circular saw, etc. etc.

The massive amounts of people using table saws, or any other saws out there, compared to the number of people missing fingers is astronomical.

This whole SawStop hubbub is like the lawsuits against gun manufacturers for selling a dangerous item because, shocker, bullets come out the end and can/do kill people.
 

purosananto

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Yeah, and key context immediately preceding your key "quote", that you left out:



Bolding mine. Your quote is Gass's interpretation. Not an actual quote from anyone present.

Lanier has a legitimate point, though. If they chose to license the tech, and incorporate it on one of their saws, and some half-wit chops his fingers off because he doesn't respect the tool and learn how to use it properly, then they're open to a lawsuit because they "quite obviously" recognized that the saws are unsafe, otherwise why would they have licensed the SawStop technology?

Seriously - if a table saw is unsafe, so is a radial arm saw, a jigsaw, a circular saw, etc. etc.

The massive amounts of people using table saws, or any other saws out there, compared to the number of people missing fingers is astronomical.

This whole SawStop hubbub is like the lawsuits against gun manufacturers for selling a dangerous item because, shocker, bullets come out the end and can/do kill people.

I think the response of yours that I bolded is the whole point. Once the technology is used for table saws, it would be a legitimate question as to why it wasn't incorporated in other types of saws. The manufacturers didn't want to go down that path. I think you misunderstand Laniers point. The people that are going to sue them if they hurt their finger are going to sue them whether the saw has the technology or not. The difference is that if saws with the technology exist it will be harder to defend (in court) your saw not having it.

What has happened once Sawstop actually started building and selling the saw is that just as Lanier predicted the saws made w/o the technology have a harder time defending themselves in court from these types of lawsuits. These results have likely caused Bosch to now come out with their saw.
 

thieltech

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only time before they all have this tech . just like ABS and Air Bags .
all comes down to people with no common sense and proper training as said already.

and lets not forget all the sue happy people looking for a easy buck
 

Sal Bandini

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only time before they all have this tech . just like ABS and Air Bags .
all comes down to people with no common sense and proper training as said already.

and lets not forget all the sue happy people looking for a easy buck

But has anyone sued for not having ABS and won?
 

thieltech

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But has anyone sued for not having ABS and won?

i was refering to abs ,and airbags to the saw stop tech coming full circle in a matter of time.

and the sueing to the saw stop not being on one saw and not the other and people sueing because of it.
 

Sal Bandini

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i was refering to abs ,and airbags to the saw stop tech coming full circle in a matter of time.

and the sueing to the saw stop not being on one saw and not the other and people sueing because of it.

Right, and if ABS is available but not on my car can I sue if I get in an accident and expect a big payout?
 

purosananto

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only time before they all have this tech . just like ABS and Air Bags .
all comes down to people with no common sense and proper training as said already.

and lets not forget all the sue happy people looking for a easy buck

I don't agree that with the part in bold. I think the reason we have safety features is to reduce effects of accidents (i.e. not user error), not prevent misuse.

Also, cars and power tools are not particularly similar from a product liability stand point, since cars require a government license to operate. This absolves manufactures of most misuse type claims that exist with power tools (ABS was driven by insurance companies and airbags were required by the government).

If Bosch wants to sell power tools to the masses at home depot it can't then claim that its tools are only for professional use when a untrained user has something go wrong. That is why once sawstop started manufacturing it was inevitable that the technology would spread to other OEMs.
 

Sal Bandini

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At what point are individuals accountable?

I can hurt myself with table saw, miter saw, drill, nail gun, jig saw, router, chainsaw, lawn mower, weed whacker, hedge trimmer, hammer, etc. Heck, I can even hurt myself with kitchen appliances, like blenders, knives, toasters, waffle makers, even grills.

If the safety features reduce accidents then should we mandate them? Why not put sawstop technology in miter saws? Or if these tools are really that dangerous then maybe we should issue a government license.
 

thieltech

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I don't agree that with the part in bold. I think the reason we have safety features is to reduce effects of accidents (i.e. not user error), not prevent misuse.

Also, cars and power tools are not particularly similar from a product liability stand point, since cars require a government license to operate. This absolves manufactures of most misuse type claims that exist with power tools (ABS was driven by insurance companies and airbags were required by the government).

If Bosch wants to sell power tools to the masses at home depot it can't then claim that its tools are only for professional use when a untrained user has something go wrong. That is why once sawstop started manufacturing it was inevitable that the technology would spread to other OEMs.

good points , i was looking at it from the stand point of misuse / stupidity
but ur right it could save some ones body part and job/ trade
 

purosananto

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At what point are individuals accountable?

I can hurt myself with table saw, miter saw, drill, nail gun, jig saw, router, chainsaw, lawn mower, weed whacker, hedge trimmer, hammer, etc. Heck, I can even hurt myself with kitchen appliances, like blenders, knives, toasters, waffle makers, even grills.

If the safety features reduce accidents then should we mandate them? Why not put sawstop technology in miter saws? Or if these tools are really that dangerous then maybe we should issue a government license.

I get what you are saying. I guess I have a hard time seeing something that will reduce injuries as being a bad thing. At one time much of what we are completely used to, such as momentary switches on saws, were new fangled safety innovations.

I suspect if the internet existed before momentary switches the old timers could have read peoples complaints about the hassle of holding the switch on the whole time they made a cut on their miter saw and that they couldn't leave the saw running between cuts.
 

kctyphoon

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Yeah, and key context immediately preceding your key "quote", that you left out:



Bolding mine. Your quote is Gass's interpretation. Not an actual quote from anyone present.

Lanier has a legitimate point, though. If they chose to license the tech, and incorporate it on one of their saws, and some half-wit chops his fingers off because he doesn't respect the tool and learn how to use it properly, then they're open to a lawsuit because they "quite obviously" recognized that the saws are unsafe, otherwise why would they have licensed the SawStop technology?

Seriously - if a table saw is unsafe, so is a radial arm saw, a jigsaw, a circular saw, etc. etc.

The massive amounts of people using table saws, or any other saws out there, compared to the number of people missing fingers is astronomical.

This whole SawStop hubbub is like the lawsuits against gun manufacturers for selling a dangerous item because, shocker, bullets come out the end and can/do kill people.

i dont feel you can compare these other tools with a table saw.. the table saw is the only one where YOU are moving the material to the blade with your hands, and not moving the saw through material... if you slip with a radial arm or circular saw - you make a bad cut.. u slip with a table saw, you make a good cut - through your hand potentially..
you have control of the power switch in your hand at all tiimes, and you can easily guide the tool away from you.. its almost impossible to "fall" into the blade of a jigsaw while youre using it.

to the guy that said can he sue because his car doesnt have abs - you wouldnt win that case.. abs is widely available, and if safety was your concern you would not have purchased that car. you made a conscious decesion to forego a widely available safety option offered by every car maker today.... this is exactly why a company like bosch will offer a saw like this.. they see the blood in the water, they are doing what they can to protect themselves.. they now offer a "safe" version of a table saw, and if you "CHOOSE" not to buy it, you are on your own.. they offered, you declined - you cant sue under the pretense that there wasnt a safer option available and you had "no choice" when you decided to buy bosch.
 
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kythri

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So much for personal responsibility these days.

Maybe I'll find an ambulance chaser and sue Gass for not developing a SawStop for bandsaws.
 

Sal Bandini

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i dont feel you can compare these other tools with a table saw.. the table saw is the only one where YOU are moving the material to the blade with your hands, and not moving the saw through material... if you slip with a radial arm or circular saw - you make a bad cut.. u slip with a table saw, you make a good cut - through your hand potentially..
you have control of the power switch in your hand at all tiimes, and you can easily guide the tool away from you.. its almost impossible to "fall" into the blade of a jigsaw while youre using it.

to the guy that said can he sue because his car doesnt have abs - you wouldnt win that case.. abs is widely available, and if safety was your concern you would not have purchased that car. you made a conscious decesion to forego a widely available safety option offered by every car maker today.... this is exactly why a company like bosch will offer a saw like this.. they see the blood in the water, they are doing what they can to protect themselves.. they now offer a "safe" version of a table saw, and if you "CHOOSE" not to buy it, you are on your own.. they offered, you declined - you cant sue under the pretense that there wasnt a safer option available and you had "no choice" when you decided to buy bosch.

Trying to rationalize why a table saw is applicable but not other saws is silly. I know a guy who cut 2 of his fingers off with miter saw. I know a guy who cut his fingers off with circular saw. I know a guy who drilled a hole in his leg with a hand drill.

So I should have made a conscious effort to buy a car with ABS but the guy who cut off his fingers with Ryobi doesn't need to make a conscious effort?
 

neophyte

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Apr 23, 2012
Messages
9,783
Location
Pennsylvannia
i dont feel you can compare these other tools with a table saw.. the table saw is the only one where YOU are moving the material to the blade with your hands, and not moving the saw through material... if you slip with a radial arm or circular saw - you make a bad cut.. u slip with a table saw, you make a good cut - through your hand potentially..
you have control of the power switch in your hand at all tiimes, and you can easily guide the tool away from you.. its almost impossible to "fall" into the blade of a jigsaw while youre using it.

to the guy that said can he sue because his car doesnt have abs - you wouldnt win that case.. abs is widely available, and if safety was your concern you would not have purchased that car. you made a conscious decesion to forego a widely available safety option offered by every car maker today.... this is exactly why a company like bosch will offer a saw like this.. they see the blood in the water, they are doing what they can to protect themselves.. they now offer a "safe" version of a table saw, and if you "CHOOSE" not to buy it, you are on your own.. they offered, you declined - you cant sue under the pretense that there wasnt a safer option available and you had "no choice" when you decided to buy bosch.

Have you ever been in a professional woodworking shop?

There are plenty of different machines a professional woodworking shop were you feed items to, thru, or past a blade. The same applies to machinery in other types of shops.

Bandsaws:

Unless you're re-sawing large quantities of wood, bandsaws in woodworking environments almost always involve manually feeding stock thru the saw. In my experience in shops, the many of the more serious accidents the happened were people not paying attention and accidentally feeding their fingers into the blade. Otherwise people would sometimes try to cut odd shaped pieces were the work wasn't supported by the table and the blade would slam the workpiece and their fingers into the table. Neither of these situations is pleasant. Most didn't seriously maim the person for life though. It's also possible to have hair or clothing grabbed by the blade and torn off.

Jointers:

Again, this is a tool were stock is routinely manually fed into the cutter head. Most large jointers have very powerful motors that can literally tear clothing of a person if the clothing gets caught by the cutter-head. There are also plenty of instances of whole fingers being removed, or a large layer of flesh from a hand or arm. The USA and Europe use different types of guards for the cutter-head. I'm not sure whether the European guards are safer in use, but they do stay covering the blade in use unlike the USA version.

Planers:

These should be relatively safe since your fingers or hand don't come anywhere near the cutter-head. It is still possible to injury yourself if you try to manually free a too small piece of wood that has stopped feeding. The biggest danger on larger machines is if the feed rollers somehow fail. Industrial planers have motor that are very powerful. If you're standing in front of the planer feeding stock and the feed rollers fail. The stock can be driven back into the user with enough force to seriously injure or kill him. The force is far larger than what is typical experience from a tablesaw, but it's also more likely to happen in an industrial environment.

Sanders:

It's very easy to remove a large amount of flesh with a large manual belt or disc sander. I know this from personal experience. If you try sanding a piece that's too small or with the wrong shape and with proper support, the sander can pivot the piece drawing your hands into the abrasive. The abrasive can remove a hell of a lot of skin quickly. The coarse abrasive typically used for woodworking can also easily catch loose clothing or hair. Workpieces for small production and one off pieces are routinely manually fed into these sanders.

The Drill Press:

You may not manually feed work into a drill press but you do feed the drill bit into your work. If the piece you're drilling isn't properly clamped, its possible for the drill bit to grab the piece and spin it around like a helicopter blade causing impact or laceration injuries. It's also possible to get clothing or hair caught by the drill bit. If you're lucky the hair or clothing simply gets torn off rather than twisting your arm or head into the cutter or quill. Chuck keys also sometimes get left in the drill chuck and get flung across the room. At least this can be easily fixed with a keyless chuck, or a spring loaded chuck key.

Router Tables:

If you try feeding a small piece of wood thru a large bit, like a panel raising or rabbet bit, its possible for the bit to brag the workpiece and fling it across the room or into you. It's also possible your fingers can get pivoted into the bit. European designed router bits with antikickack features help prevent this but it can still happen. A lot of newer router table come with really good safety guards which can also help prevent this if the user actually uses them.

Hand held power tools:

The Jigsaw you mentioned:

It's not unknown for people to hold a workpiece with one hand and the jigsaw with the other for a cut. Some of these people have been known cut wind up cutting into their fingers. Resting the workpiece on the users thigh is also a way jigsaw users have been known to injure themselves when they actually slice into their thigh. This also apparently a major way people injure themselves using circular saws.

Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc.
 

PugetDude

ALLIANCE MEMBER
Joined
Mar 13, 2013
Messages
22,469
Location
Superstition Mountains, AZ
only time before they all have this tech . just like ABS and Air Bags .
all comes down to people with no common sense and proper training as said already.

and lets not forget all the sue happy people looking for a easy buck

I'm actually surprised SawStop hasn't been dragged into a personal injury lawsuit for depriving the other brands of their proprietary technology...Litigation-Lotto Lawyers and aggrieved "victims" don't seem to care about the facts, just show the jury the ****** stumps and wait for it to rain cash.
 
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