New home const & Security/multi-media questions

[C2 Turbo]

Hey Folks, Can I get some feedback here.

Just finished framing the house,well almost, and was wondering what all is involved in setting up a surround sound in a room?

Got a quote from a professional shop for various stuff but it seems quite a bit expensive.

Can some one give me few pointers or some basics as to what wires I need or how to set it up?

Tried the AVS forum but that site is not very user friendly so gave up.

Another question, would these big security companies (Select Security/ADT) etc, not install the system free if one was to sign an agreement with them?

Thanks

 

[inphx]

For new build - i'm a little ahead of you in my process.

On Audio i learned some tips from this thread: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=270539 Especially the 11/28/2014 parts list. i purchased stuff from parts-express. That would get you wires in the wall, volume controls remote from the stereo and ceiling speakers buying time for the electronics to power it. I am also pre-wiring Cable,Cat6 and power in each room at floor level and several feet up for wall mount led tv's.

For Security, i am going crazy with Cat6 cable. In house perimeter and garage endpoints ran for cameras (i am thinking hard wired versus IP based cameras and there are adapters to let you use network cat6 connectors. These will feed into a 16 channel DVR. Also for motion sensors in rooms i am running cat 6 with individual "home runs". A security company may run the motion sensors serially (any motion sets alarm) but i was going to eventually tie the endpoints into an Arduino based solution allowing me to set zones on/off like downstairs or guest bedrooms into a web interface (i am a programmer - Arduino is a multipurpose device not a commercial alarm product). I prototyped code to allow doorbell to ring to an app on all our cell phones via SMS. But for off the shelf alarms you can go with: http://www.homesecuritystore.com/ for fair pricing if you DIY.

All my CAT6 and coax cables terminate into a full size 19" computer rack cabinet. The in wall stereo wiring terminates by the planned entertainment center

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Hey Folks, Can I get some feedback here.

Just finished framing the house,well almost, and was wondering what all is involved in setting up a surround sound in a room?

Got a quote from a professional shop for various stuff but it seems quite a bit expensive.

Can some one give me few pointers or some basics as to what wires I need or how to set it up?

Tried the AVS forum but that site is not very user friendly so gave up.

Another question, would these big security companies (Select Security/ADT) etc, not install the system free if one was to sign an agreement with them?

Thanks

this really depends on what exactly u want.

Do u want home theater in one room, a whole house music system, or?

Ive installed both.

For home theater in a room you need to decide where u will put your components. And do u want in wall speakers or surface mount? Overhead surrounds or couch level? It takes a little bit of time to design. Once u figure this out, run speaker wire in wall to each location.

If it were my house, i would wire each room with coax and CAT5e or CAT6. U could do individual cables or buy a roll of structured cable(multiple cables in one jacket) and run it all to a central location such as a closet and install a media panel such as one of Levitons structured media panels:

http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/SectionDisplay.jsp?section=37666&minisite=10251

I highly doubt a security company is gonna do free work outisde of what they offer as part of a package...I would consult with the co of your choosing and either have them run the wire in wall now or find out what you will need and do it yourself in wall. A new house with surface mounted wire looks bad. Nothing like the ugliness of surface mounted alarm wiring in a brand new house.

 

[C2 Turbo]

^ thanks for your reply. I am definately looking into pre-wiring and have all the wires done now than later.

Here's what I am planning and you guys tell me if the quote is reasonable.

1)- Room 1 (Ground floor Family):

Surround sound (5 speakers/TV) with all the components (Receiver/Dish/Blue Ray DVD/CD etc) in a closet nearby.

2)- Room 2: (Family room upstairs)

Similar set up as ground

3)- Room 3: (Future theatre room in the basement):

Theatre room wiring with projector in the ceiling

4)- Internet access:

Wireless router/s along with hard line drops in atleast 7-8 rooms

5)- Game room:

I also made a small room (son's cave room ) where I plan on setting him up a game room. Told the guy, wire it for what ever (suggestions welcome) is needed in this room for him to play Xbox or any other future/possible games. Sorry for my ignorance here.

6)- House Speakers:

Pre-wire for ceiling speakers in all three floors plus garage )) and the covered porch

7)- Security:

Will be wiring the house for the security (motion detectors/cameras) etc

The estimate just for pre-wiring the house was close to $7500 or something like that including the wires (cat5/HDMI cables etc) + labor.

I would appreciate if you guys could give me a feedback as to the estimate and or any other suggestions?

Thanks

 

[LifeLongWNYer]

Be careful with the big conglomerates, they have been know to be tricky.

A lot of them will put in a "free" system but want to use wireless sensors. Those are motion sensors, or door position sensors with a low power RF transmitter which send a signal which is monitored by the central panel. Easy for them, they can "install" a system in a couple of hours. Be aware that you will be replacing batteries in the sensors forever. Some panel will send a "trouble" alarm when a sensor needs a new battery, but I would not trust it. If you go this way, set up a system for changing batteries on a regular basis. After changing them, test each sensor while watching the keypad to be sure each is sending "trip" and "reset" signals to the panel, AND the panel is receiving them.

This probably isn't a consideration is the normal house, but it might be in a high end home.... Since the transmitters in the sensors are pretty low power, any one familiar with the brand of your system will know what frequency it is on. There are only a few used. It is possible to swing by your house with a transmitter on the correct frequency and blast a continuous wave signal to overpower your receiver panel. Then, when the sensors trip, their signal is too weak to get through.

Also, with any "free system" the reason they install it for free, is to lock you in on the monitoring contract. That is the gravy for them.



JBP


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[offroadsteve]

I'm not in the business, but my gut says $7500 is a little high for just the pre-wire, unless they are including a lot of the actual speakers and such in that cost because they need to mount the housings.

I would get a detailed list of what exactly that quote covers, and what the final cost to complete would be.

You are basically looking at 4 complete theater rooms, a 3 story house worth of speakers and all the controls, etc to go with it, plus security wiring. With the HDMI runs to make all the components hidden, etc etc, you are talking about at least $1500 just in wire if they buy decent product, then there are the housings and panels to terminate it all.

I don't know what the going rate for an electrician to wire a house is these days, but you are nearly at the same level of labor for the install you are looking for, possibly even a bit more since they are doing the design work as well.

Conclusion... I am in the wrong business....

 

[Beemer533]

For new build - i'm a little ahead of you in my process.

For Security, i am going crazy with Cat6 cable. In house perimeter and garage endpoints ran for cameras (i am thinking hard wired versus IP based cameras and there are adapters to let you use network cat6 connectors. These will feed into a 16 channel DVR.....

All my CAT6 and coax cables terminate into a full size 19" computer rack cabinet. The in wall stereo wiring terminates by the planned entertainment center

What do you mean by "hardwired" vs IP? IP cameras are hardwired unless you plan on wifi...

If you are installing cat6 you should just use IP POE cameras and an NVR (a dvr is for analog cameras using coax). Then you don't need power at each camera, just the cat6...

 

[Beemer533]

^ thanks for your reply. I am definately looking into pre-wiring and have all the wires done now than later.

Here's what I am planning and you guys tell me if the quote is reasonable.

1)- Room 1 (Ground floor Family):

Surround sound (5 speakers/TV) with all the components (Receiver/Dish/Blue Ray DVD/CD etc) in a closet nearby.

2)- Room 2: (Family room upstairs)

Similar set up as ground

3)- Room 3: (Future theatre room in the basement):

Theatre room wiring with projector in the ceiling

4)- Internet access:

Wireless router/s along with hard line drops in atleast 7-8 rooms

5)- Game room:

I also made a small room (son's cave room ) where I plan on setting him up a game room. Told the guy, wire it for what ever (suggestions welcome) is needed in this room for him to play Xbox or any other future/possible games. Sorry for my ignorance here.

6)- House Speakers:

Pre-wire for ceiling speakers in all three floors plus garage )) and the covered porch

7)- Security:

Will be wiring the house for the security (motion detectors/cameras) etc

The estimate just for pre-wiring the house was close to $7500 or something like that including the wires (cat5/HDMI cables etc) + labor.

I would appreciate if you guys could give me a feedback as to the estimate and or any other suggestions?

Thanks

Apologies if I missed it, but what is the sqft of the house?

$7500 does sound like a lot, but the planning and materials for what you describe are not insignificant.

Is this a home theater company or a security company? Did they give you a plan, as that would help a lot...

Edit: I just noticed the "+ labor" comment; $7500 plus labor? That sounds like a lot if that price doesn't include anything but cabling.

I'd really like to see what they have in there for HDMI cable.. If they are quoting $300 Monster/super high end cable I would not accept that.

 

[C2 Turbo]

The price is $7500 (wires/cables/labor) and the house is close to 8500 sqft. Yes I have asked for break down and haven't heard anything back yet (5 days )

 

[Todd.Brock]

When you are closing in on that size house, I would expect there to be a boat load of wiring, and dedicated runs just keep it going up. . I'm sorry if Missed , but was this an A/v store? While it may seem strong , think about the material costs, design , and then just labor. While it *****, there may be a " it looks like they can afford it" markup in there as well. Good luck and let us know how it turns out. I would run like hell from a 3 yr 50 bucks a month ADt special. Around here local companies, smaller companies seem to have a good reputation without all the dog and pony ********

 

[C2 Turbo]

Here's what I got the quote from this Security/Media store and has since requested a break down.

Description:

Prewire

FT................. Description

2,000 ..........(2) RG6U and (2) Cat5e
600.............. Blue Cat5e
500 ..............Yellow Cat5e
1,000 ............Green Cat5e
1,500 ...........16/2 Speaker Wire
300 ..............White RG6 3Ghz
1,500 ...........22/4 Security Wire
1,500 ...........18/4 Fire Wire
19 ...............TV Box

1 Consumable Supplies-....... Nuts, Bolts, Tape, Anchors, etc
1 ................Labor

Note: This is for prewiring house for security system, camera's, access points, (2) surround sound rooms, speakers in house and
Tv/Phone/Data drops.

Added: (6) data drops and prewire for surround sound in basement


So does this quote seems sufficient or do I need to know further?

Thanks

 

[Holt]

Looks fair to me. You hqve a big house and all the lines should be home ran and for 8500 sf thats a lot of wire. Dont forget after the install they test everything. The amount of time spent in you house is a good chunk of cost. I would not let adt do the install. Have a low voltage co wire it up the choose your monitoring company. A lot of security monitoring cos have a 3rd party monitoring station around here called COPs so there effectivly 8 companys that use the same call center.

 

[justsam]

Here's what I got the quote from this Security/Media store and has since requested a break down.

Description:

Prewire

FT................. Description

2,000 ..........(2) RG6U and (2) Cat5e
600.............. Blue Cat5e
500 ..............Yellow Cat5e
1,000 ............Green Cat5e
1,500 ...........16/2 Speaker Wire
300 ..............White RG6 3Ghz
1,500 ...........22/4 Security Wire
1,500 ...........18/4 Fire Wire
19 ...............TV Box

1 Consumable Supplies-....... Nuts, Bolts, Tape, Anchors, etc
1 ................Labor

Note: This is for prewiring house for security system, camera's, access points, (2) surround sound rooms, speakers in house and
Tv/Phone/Data drops.

Added: (6) data drops and prewire for surround sound in basement


So does this quote seems sufficient or do I need to know further?

Thanks

Where, and on what is all of this going to terminate? Do you have some form of equipment closet? A structured wiring cabinet perhaps in master closet. This level of system and house you need some space to terminate all these home run cables, and provision for power for everything, including UPS. If using NVR as has been mentioned, there will be some fan (POE) and hard drive noise.

Also window security sensors are typically done at time of window install and/or into the window casing.

Price the ball park but you do need to know how it all terminates.

 

[MattN03]

Subscribing, lots of great info! Thanks!

 

[Beemer533]

Yeah, for an 8500sqft install I think that price is not out of line.
The only thing I. Would want to know now, as justsam mentioned, how are they terminating everything? Does the cost inlude jacks, panels, rack, cabinets etc..

This post edited by the NSA

 

[Todd.Brock]

That's almost 1.5 miles of wire .

 

[jeffmoss26]

Prewire would mean they are just running the wire and someone else is terminating, or you pay them to come back and do it.

 

[inphx]

What do you mean by "hardwired" vs IP? IP cameras are hardwired unless you plan on wifi...

If you are installing cat6 you should just use IP POE cameras and an NVR (a dvr is for analog cameras using coax). Then you don't need power at each camera, just the cat6...

Yes cat6 cable with analog adapter at both ends. NTSC video and power is passed through the cat6

 

[SLYDIT]

forgive this post its gonna be all over the place...

in most homes with relitively short runs of Cat5e/ cat 6 then go with which ever is cheaper (cat 6 is coming down in price a lot) however cat 6 is more expensive to terminate and generally more of a PITA than cat 5 due to its less flexible construction.)
Cat 6 theoretically has higher speed capability but in a house with short runs, im not sure youd notice
i ran about 2000' of cat five around my modest house to give you an idea. every bedroom has 2x cat 5 and also a draw wire on the opposite side for future cat 5.
master bed has 2x cat5 to each side of the bed and also 3x cat 5 to everywhere you may want a TV.
Basically you can run the cat5 yourself. its not hard. and remember cat 5 is cheap so go crazy and put it wherever you think you might want a piece of tech in the future

16 gauge is too small for your main front speakers. you need to run 12 gauge to those and preferably in 1" conduit so you can add another run in the future if you need to bi wire.
heres what i ran for my new build from my media cupboard to my lounge..

2x hdmi Thick gauge wire as it was a 36' run
3xRG6 aerial cables
2x screened 4 core for remote blasters etc.
4Xcat5e
1xSPDIF optical lead
2 core power cable for balun/splitter/converter power if needed
also ran..
14 gauge speaker wire for all speakers in room except main fronts which are 12 gauge in conduit.

also ran a conduit to the center position behind the TV for a random yet to known cable in the future.

there are plenty of places to get cheap speaker cable the names of which escape me at the moment...sorry. have a search on avs forums etc

all the "spare cables" not directly plugged into the tv are run down past the TV into hidden connection boxes just above the floor so that if you want to add a media cupboard in the future below the TV the wiring will be long enough, this also allows for the spares to be used as draw wires to pull stuff up from below TV to TV etc. dont forget that spare power cable for 12volt power to power any hdmi baluns etc that may be needed.

make sure you put plenty of timber in your walls for TV brackets!!!!
AND TAKE LOTS OF PHOTOS AND MEASUREMENTS so you know where stuff is once the wall lining goes on.
Im not sure what your house design is or what your code allows but i used lots of blue strapping tape as future draw wires in my walls so if ever i want to add a power point or whatever, ive generally got it covered. the packing tape is dirt cheap and saves $$$$$$ down the line in labour or having to pull off wall linings to add something

HDMI runs have a limited cable length so if your cable run for HDMI is over about 35' the use cable with thicker gauge strands(probably be ok up to 50') or then youll need 2xcat6 or cat5 per hdmi run you need and use baluns at each end.

heres my tv setup:







packing tape draw wires in wall next to media cupboard:

 

[toplessHO]

you sure thats enough cable?
I think Ive put about that much in a house half that size,if you include cat 6(or 5) at every room for LAN.Also add coax for cable tv and you use the wire up quick.
If your house is 100 Ft long thats only 20 runs and thats not including drops.

 

[fastrucken1]

Check out monoprice.com for some good prices on speaker wire and tv mounts.

Graham

 

[LouisianaRebel]

Yes cat6 cable with analog adapter at both ends. NTSC video and power is passed through the cat6

Don't do that. IP cameras are way better resolution and quality.
I didn't go all out like you are but I have surround sound and outdoor speakers. Along with cat5e ran to behind tv's, office and to corners where cameras are and then ran to my safe/media room.

Crappy phone shot of screen.

 

[SLYDIT]

i agree.dont use analogue cameras use a HIGH QUALITY poe ip camera. no point having a fuzzy useless pic of the perp. id rather give up frames per second for higher definition

 

[JustinS]

Here is a good resource for all things CCTV.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_10_17/...Table_of_Contents_in_OP____Updated_9_Oct.html

 

[inphx]

ok... studying "NVR" network video recorders - thanks for schooling me. I thought IP cameras were single unit endpoints and didn't think they would readily report to a dvr/nvr... is this 8 channel w/1080p cameras a good deal? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16881183054&cm_re=nvr_8_channel-_-81-183-054-_-Product

 

[Beemer533]

Re: New home const & Security/multi-media questions

ok... studying "NVR" network video recorders - thanks for schooling me. I thought IP cameras were single unit endpoints and didn't think they would readily report to a dvr/nvr... is this 8 channel w/1080p cameras a good deal? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...54&cm_re=nvr_8_channel-_-81-183-054-_-Product

Actually, that NVR almost looks like a re-brand of the one I got..

That deal seems reasonably priced depending on the cameras.

I will see if i can find out who makes them. I can also put you in touch with LTS, where purchased most of my equipment. They sell Hikvision and rebrand it. But they provide a good warranty and support, so even if the pricing is similar, it may be a better way to go.

One thing about that NVR, it has a built-in POE (power over ethernet) switch. I'm not a fan of that configuration for various reasons..
I recommend a separate POE switch.

I can provide links to what have used in several installations..
I will elaborate later as I am at work right now.

One comment about the IP camera as an end point ; it is true that most ip cameras can function on their own, but you really need an NVR to properly manage recordings and the system as a whole.

It also makes ot easy for remote access to the system, instead of trying to access each camera separately.

There are "hybrid" DVR, but these are only needed if you already have analog cameras and want to add IP cameras.

Starting from scratch, there really isn't any point; just stick with IP..

I highly recommend checking out networkcameracritic.com for all things IP camera. Very good info/reviews there

This post edited by the NSA

 

[LifeLongWNYer]

One thing to remember is that resolution ( image quality ) and image capture speed ( images per second ) combine to give you the bandwidth and storage capacity that you need. Lower resolution saves on bandwidth and the storage space needed, but also can give you an image in which your own mother won't recognize you.

On the other hand, a lower frame rate ( lower images per second ) also saves on infrastructure costs, but it you are only recording one image per second, you might miss an image of an intruder passing your camera. Full video is 30 frames per second, but as you decrease the frame rate the video gets "jumpier". That is where the bad guy is at a spot in your driveway, and in the next image he is 20 feet away. With a slow enough rate, you could miss the guy altogether.

Like many other things, it isn't rocket science, but if you have never done it before, it is easy to do things that defeat you in the end.



JBP


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