What size ground wire from panel to water pipe?

[RonRock]

OK I have been trying to figure this out myself, but can't come to a clear answer. From what I have read it looks like I need a #4 copper conductor from my panel to water pipe, within 5' of water pipe entrance. I've also read that #6 is ok.

I have a 200 amp service, #4 ground conductor coming from main disconnect. Ground rod at pole with disconnect.

I am on a well with plastic pipe coming in then copper pipe.

Also do I need to ground my LPG pipes? They are black pipe inside and copper underground to the tank.

 

[Mustang51js]

200 amp needs#4 to water pipe and as a jumper on the hot water heater. #6 is all you need for the ground rod

 

[RonRock]

I have a Siemens 200 amp panel. Do I add a lug to the ground bar for the #4? Don't look like that will fit like the rest of the grounds. Sorry for the stupid question, but I'll have to go after #4. So I'll try to make one trip.

I had the #6 on hand that I was hoping was suitable.

 

[Mustang51js]

You can try to see if it fits,if it doesn't you will need a lug made for that ground bar. If you don't have a store local I would just get the lug when you get the wire so no need for two trips.

 

[Mustang51js]

If you have a main disconnect that's separate from the panel the ground wires need to go from that disconnect not from the panel. Where does the #4 go now that you have

 

[sberry]

If its plastic pipe in to the building you don't need a 4 but a ground for the largest circuit. It only needs 4 if there is buried steel used as a grounding electrode, same for the 5 ft rule. You could ground the water from any convenient spot if its plastic entrance.
Any metal should be grounded including gas pipe. I just did insp and the guy ask me where the green 10 wire went, said gas pipe, ok. I used 6 going to water but had only 100A service. Not sure that it matters but if it did he didn't catch it.

 

[Speedy Petey]

If its plastic pipe in to the building you don't need a 4 but a ground for the largest circuit. It only needs 4 if there is buried steel used as a grounding electrode, same for the 5 ft rule.

Not true at all. The water bond for a 200A service must be #4cu minimum.
See NEC 250.104(A) which refers you to Table 250.66

 

[toplessHO]

I like to make it one continuous piece of #4
not easy but its the safest.
ground rod#1 to meter base,thru a lug thats on the neutral busbar in meter can out of meter can to ground rod#2 and then to water pipe.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I like to make it one continuous piece of #4
not easy but its the safest.
ground rod#1 to meter base,thru a lug thats on the neutral busbar in meter can out of meter can to ground rod#2 and then to water pipe.

Interesting. Out here u CANT run GECs through the meter base!

 

[sberry]

Not true at all. The water bond for a 200A service must be #4cu minimum.
See NEC 250.104(A) which refers you to Table 250.66

I will read that but as I recall,,, and its been a while but I remember going over this before somewhere, seems it had to only be 4 if it was used as an electrode?
Only reason I remember this is Keis went around with some guys on ETF over it.
In qany case Ron, the point is to have any metal pipe in the place that could become energized grounded. They allow a 6 to a metal building frame I believe.

 

[sberry]

But,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, 250.66 is a chart for grounding electrode conductor, doesn't say ground to water pipe.

 

[sberry]

250.64.F There isn't a conductor connected to it, he must have rods, he needs 6 unless he has a better electrode?

 

[RonRock]

In any case Ron, the point is to have any metal pipe in the place that could become energized grounded.

Please don't mistake this as argumentative, I'm trying to learn not argue. But I don't get the logic. I am on a well, the well water comes into the house through plastic pipe. It seems to me that the only way for my water pipes to become energized would be through the grounding electrode. Otherwise they are isolated from the electrical system completely. Same with the LP tank, and pipes.

I should mention that I have an LPG water heater, so no heating elements there.

Thanks guys for the help.

 

[Speedy Petey]

But,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, 250.66 is a chart for grounding electrode conductor, doesn't say ground to water pipe.

250.104(A) is for bonding of metal water piping. It specifically refers you to 250.66 for sizing.

 

[Speedy Petey]

250.64.F There isn't a conductor connected to it, he must have rods, he needs 6 unless he has a better electrode?

250.64(F) is for grounding electrodes. This has nothing to do with this situation because he has a well with plastic coming in. This is NOT an electrode. Even if it were, it would still need to be #4.
Again, see 250.104.

If we are talking about a connection to ONLY grounding electrode, then yes, #6 is the largest required. But if this also serves as the water bond then the #6 minimum goes out the window for over 100A services. 250.66(A)

 

[sberry]

Ron, this was the point I was wanting to make, to get the idea across or what the point is or was. The point is to have the metal water piping grounded. In this case it is NOT and I can repeat it I spose but the reason for this bond is to protect it from becoming energized thru a fault (short circuit or leak) to the pipe from a wire or appliance electrically connected to it. Should a wire chafe and wear against a water pipe it is grounded.
In this case the wire not need be larger than the largest potential circuit connected to it. Probably a number 10 for circuits to 60A but it is as easy to use a 6 similar to any building bond which is that, 6 for 200 to the steel, any internal piping is the same unless its being used as an electrode, same for the 5 ft rule, irrelevant here.
I personally would like to see it on a trunk if you are using a branch system but you can have it on any accessable point. It cant be hidden and a jumper from hot to cold isn't a bad idea and since you are on a well the meter requirements is irrlevent also.

 

[sberry]

As far as I know and as it was splained to me in lay terms (I am a simple installer) by a couple engineer types the idea of the 4 is to direct a lightnng strike to the primary electrode. Pretty much (for our purpose) as simple as it will follow the biggest wire with the least resistance to the best electrode.
The rest of this is moot to you, get clamp, stick on pipe somewhere. run wire to neutral bar in main service or if to a sub to the ground bar.
If you had modular home with steel frame it would need a 6 to that, 6 to rods, since the water comes in plastic you need ground for largest circuit fault to it. To make it simple use the same 6.

 

[Speedy Petey]

Ron, this was the point I was wanting to make, to get the idea across or what the point is or was. The point is to have the metal water piping grounded. In this case it is NOT and I can repeat it I spose but the reason for this bond is to protect it from becoming energized thru a fault (short circuit or leak) to the pipe from a wire or appliance electrically connected to it. Should a wire chafe and wear against a water pipe it is grounded.
In this case the wire not need be larger than the largest potential circuit connected to it. Probably a number 10 for circuits to 60A but it is as easy to use a 6 similar to any building bond which is that, 6 for 200 to the steel, any internal piping is the same unless its being used as an electrode, same for the 5 ft rule, irrelevant here.
I personally would like to see it on a trunk if you are using a branch system but you can have it on any accessable point. It cant be hidden and a jumper from hot to cold isn't a bad idea and since you are on a well the meter requirements is irrlevent also.

If you are going to make INCORRECT posts like this then I suggest you refrain from posting and leave it to those who actually know the code.

What you describe DOES NOT, repeat DOES NOT, apply to water piping. This is for "Other Metal Piping". This is 250.104(B).

 

[Speedy Petey]

NEC text:

250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed Structural Steel

(A) Metal Water Piping.

The metal water piping system shall be bonded as required in (A)(1), (A)(2), or (A)(3) of this section. The bonding jumper(s) shall be installed in accordance with 250.64(A), (B), and (E). The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.

(1) General.

Metal water piping system(s) installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or to the one or more grounding electrodes used. The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with Table 250.66 except as permitted in 250.104(A)(2) and (A)(3).

250.104(A)(2) and (A)(3) refer to multiple occupancy and multiple buildings.

 

[Speedy Petey]

Continued:

250.104(B) Other Metal Piping.

If installed in, or attached to, a building or structure, a metal piping system(s), including gas piping, that is likely to become energized shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure; the grounded conductor at the service; the grounding electrode conductor, if of sufficient size; or to one or more grounding electrodes used. The bonding conductor(s) or jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with 250.122, using the rating of the circuit that is likely to energize the piping system(s). The equipment grounding conductor for the circuit that is likely to energize the piping shall be permitted to serve as the bonding means. The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.

 

[toplessHO]

Interesting. Out here u CANT run GECs through the meter base!

Im sure installations vary with local conditions.
In New Mexico we couldnt use ground rods had to use chemical wells and test the system for less than 5 ohms.

also gotta ask what grounds the neutral in meter base? power co rod at Xmr?

 

[sberry]

BTW and for whats its worth,,,, Most of these guys are way ahead of me, I'm still eating dirt in this regard. Norcal, Ace, Speedy, Alfred and a couple others here know more about electricity than I ever will and that's a fact.

I have seen this wrong. Especially in regard to wells. If there is a steel well caseing it is the best you can get. There is a difference here in grounding and grounding "to". I see one recently where they assume it was a hit to the well and not so, the well was a termination point should have been delivered elsewhere in the sense that,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, the pipe, the drop pipe and the motor were electrically grounded thru the supply wire but there should really have been another wire from the service to the casing.
I had one "hit" and yes you look at it, plain as day but again MR well installer "doesn't understand" so he does it like he feels. When I service it and changed out the equipment. got a simple 120/240 I got to the rods etc I was still having my understanding issues and A guru from another forum finally asked me a couple questions and its 10 ft away and I will do better than a lug but weld a clamp to the sucker he says, do not use rods, it don't get no better than 160 ft of casing, you don't want or need suplimental.. duh...

 

[sberry]

You can get all out of breath and blow all the smoke you want. You can discuss, its a free forum and in fact you can do what you want but feel free to teach someone something anywhere along the way.
You are right it will get sorted out if I am wrong, along the way maybe you learn a little too.

 

[Speedy Petey]

You can get all out of breath and blow all the smoke you want. You can discuss, its a free forum and in fact you can do what you want but feel free to teach someone something anywhere along the way.
You are right it will get sorted out if I am wrong, along the way maybe you learn a little too.

If this is directed at me I am fine and not out of breath at all.
My point was "teaching something along the way" by posting the relevant code sections and explanations, but you repeatedly ignored this and posted incorrect info anyway.

 

[Speedy Petey]

also gotta ask what grounds the neutral in meter base? power co rod at Xmr?

The neutral lug in the meter base is connected directly to the meter enclosure. It is not isolated.

 

[sberry]

Ron asked whats the point, he asked why, he was looking at it becoming energizes thru grounding vs being grounded. Again, grounding, grounded to and bonding are different. A motor is grounded thru the supply wire and the parts within bonded by other mechanical connections.
I found a dryer the other day and corrected a faulty bond from 4 to 3 by a handyman type. At the point where my tool met the wire it could care less about a quote only that I fix it and take 10 minutes to work with a couple of my men towards a little understanding. The code compliance will make some sense for a lot of people following this.
Now the one I just did the house pipe was plastic but had incoming city metal, no meter.
It had a steel riser. I pulled a home permit on it, was there, the guy was super, we had very little conversation but I did ask if he would have accepted the 5 ft if I had clamped on top he said yes. I didn't mention the wire size, I asked here somewhere and was told to look it up, I didn't. It was 100 A and I used 6 to the only metal water pipe in the building.

 

[sberry]

Youre right. My only point was the reference to this chart says,,, grounding electrode conductor, there is no grounding electrode.

 

[sberry]

A couple guys here are full time trades, I am about 10%. I havnt failed a service entrance inspection in 25 years. I could have and maybe should have but inspectors almost always coment or ask if I am a spark or if I had help.
Let some amateurs try to pick me wrong instead of being the forum police on this and a half a dozen others some of these guys show up on and straighten the world. I seen some guys on trade forums been wiring for 10 yrs still got to look to see a 6 goes to a rod.
Look at the shoddy work posted here by real trades guys,,, ha. All the botched installs which are obvious done by electricians.
A lot of faulty installs done by amateurs in the sense of one thing. NUMBER 1 issue 10x the rest of all this and what old lazy inspectors used to look for is that there is the system bond and now days the concern that this separation from after this point be carried thru.
Hence,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Its kind of why they left the 3 wire as is grandfathered in. They knew as they were there was a fault path, once they modified it all bets were off. and we would like to see it replaced with 4 wire anyway so the requirement to change it out if you tampered with it.
Sometimes its hard to splain why someone needs to replace a fuse box. It often isn't needed but is not being used correctly as a sub type, they were service entrance equipment with a bonded neutral.

 

[sberry]

My neighbor drilled the pin out of his, the original guy used 4 wire but fed old 60A service box. I really don't like doing that, new is so cheap especially with the competition. 50$ for new 6 space and breakers, I seen them pay sparky to leave it all on.

 

[Speedy Petey]

It's a bit early to be drinking, isn't it?

 

[sberry]

Ron, you need a ground from the pipe to the panel in case of a fault or ungrounded conductor should come in contact with the pipe or equipment connected to it. Usually connected equipment is grounded with the circuit, water heater, humidifier, maybe furnace. If there was no ground this could all become energizes and with it is all at the same potential, no 2 pieces of equipment are at different potentials. The pipe is the same as the drill press, same as the work bench and ideally the same as the surface you are standing on.
A fault in a water heater element is delivered back to service main.
By using 4 wire to a sub this lets you insulate all the neutrals and keep all operating voltage off of chassis and allow for a non current carry bond thru the 4th wire (same cable or raceway) and keeps neutral off the metal gas line you describe. If we have a bond in wrong spot or none at all it wont carry a fault or may carry neutral currents across any metallic pathway,,, not just the wire but anywhere.


I don't know how they do forced air furnace other than the wire connected to it to assume the whole raceway is bonded? Its got metal gas pipe but as I recall I only served it with 14.

 

[sberry]

It was meant to be real iife app for the handyman/home types. My neighbor made it electrically correct but he used modified equipment. Personally would have tossed it in favor of a new panel.
So it don't matter to me if Ron makes it a little tuffer on himself and drives around looking for a lug and queer wire 2 sizes bigger than it needs. Aint no inspector worth a pinch of **** and forensics for that matter ever gonna convict Ron of negligence for using a 6 to bond this. Full short circuit for 200A, could provide another circuit with number 3 conductors and an 8 ground.

 

[sberry]

The main curiosity I have with it is that I seem to recall a couple guys smarter than both of us and maybe been on the code board discussing and its been so long ago but I thought I recall the consess was that it wasn't metal piping entering and it wasnt an electrode etc that it didn't apply but again in my case it would be well over a decade since I even read it.