Entire circuit must be brought up to current code when replacing outlets?

[checkthisout]

AFCI's required when replacing outlets?

Doing a remodel for some family members. Decided to get permits for moving a bathroom outlet, repairing a range outlet and moving/installing an outlet for the dishwasher.

We were going to replace all the outlets in the house to the more modern flat type in white and get rid of the old, ugly bisque ones....

The inspector said that if we replace outlets or switches the circuit must be brought up to current standards which means AFCI breakers for the circuit?


Did I hear him right?

I can understand on the circuits where I moved wiring and changed outlets, but just when you change out the plugs and switches themselves?

 

[Rock knocker]

The inspector said that if we replace outlets or switches the circuit must be brought up to current standards which means AFCI breakers for the circuit?

That likely doesn't even require a permit

 

[Norcal]

If you add a receptacle, light to a existing circuit, then AFCI's becomes a requirement, tamper resistant receptacles also become a requirement, as would GFCI's in the kitchen, bath(s), garage & anywhere else they are required. Inspector is making up rules or they have adopted the requirement above the NEC's requirements.

 

[checkthisout]

That likely doesn't even require a permit

Off of the L&I website:

Work that does not require a permit
■ Travel trailers.
■ Plug-in household appliances.
■ Like-in-kind replacement of a single circuit
breaker, fuse, residential luminaire, lamp, snap
switch, dimmer, receptacle outlet, thermostat,
heating element, luminaire ballast with an exact
same ballast, or 10 horsepower or smaller motor.
■ Like-in-kind replacement of a single thermostat
(not the wiring), contactor, relay, timer, starter,
circuit board, or similar control component.
■ Heat cable repair.

 

[checkthisout]

If you add a receptacle, light to a existing circuit, then AFCI's becomes a requirement, tamper resistant receptacles also become a requirement, as would GFCI's in the kitchen, bath(s), garage & anywhere else they are required. Inspector is making up rules or they have adopted the requirement above the NEC's requirements.

I just posted the rules off the L&I website that performed the inspection.

Pretty confused at the moment as to why he said that.

I made sure I asked him twice to make sure there were no communication errors

 

[checkthisout]

Ok, here is an excerpt from page before:

The like-in-kind replacement of lamps; a single set of fuses; a single battery smaller than 150 amp hour; contactors, relays, timers, starters, circuit boards, or similar control components; one household applicance; circuit breakers; single-family residential luminaires; up to five snap switches, dimmers, receptable outlets, thermostats, heating elements, luminaire ballasts with an exact same ballast; component(s) of electric signs, outline lighting, or skeleton neon tubing when replaced on-site by an appropriate electrical contractor and when the sign, outline lighting or skeleton neon tubing electrical system is not modified; one ten horsepower or smaller motor.

So does this mean I can do 5, or from the previous just one, or from the inspector said none?

http://lni.wa.gov/TradesLicensing/Electrical/BasicElectInstall/PermitBasics/default.asp

 

[Rock knocker]

So you're L&I, and not a muni inspection?

I would say you can do un unlimited number of receptacles and five switches as replacements.

 

[Mustang51js]

Just do the work that you have the permit on,which shouldn't require a afci unless your in 2014 code and then change the outlets after inspection.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Are you opening any walls during the remodel?

 

[APEowner]

The inspector said that if we replace outlets or switches the circuit must be brought up to current standards which means AFCI breakers for the circuit?

It really doesn't matter what the code is. It's the inspector that you need to satisfy. You could ask for clarification while citing the relevant code but but it's usually quicker, cheaper and less stressful to just comply with their interpretation.

 

[checkthisout]

It really doesn't matter what the code is. It's the inspector that you need to satisfy. You could ask for clarification while citing the relevant code but but it's usually quicker, cheaper and less stressful to just comply with their interpretation.

I put 3 AFGFCI's in the existing panel for the 3 circuits we modified already. These take up two breaker spaces

I'm out of room in the box now. I can't add anymore afci's without a panel change.

 

[checkthisout]

Are you opening any walls during the remodel?

Yes, inspector came and checked and signed off so I could enclose walls.

 

[Rock knocker]

It really doesn't matter what the code is. It's the inspector that you need to satisfy. You could ask for clarification while citing the relevant code but but it's usually quicker, cheaper and less stressful to just comply with their interpretation.

But you can't be their puppet either

 

[Whitworth]

Decided to get permits for moving a bathroom outlet, repairing a range outlet and moving/installing an outlet for the dishwasher.

That was your first mistake. Now your stuck "listening" to the inspector.

Who cares what the code says as long as the changes are done in a safe, workman like manner ?

Now you've got to spend more money and time on installing gimmick technology.

The "code" is written primarily by the manufacturers who have a vested interest in pushing new, more costly products.

The inspectors (many, not all) are just parroting what marketing literature they've been subjected to.

 

[Rock knocker]

That was your first mistake. Now your stuck "listening" to the inspector.

Who cares what the code says as long as the changes are done in a safe, workman like manner ?

Now you've got to spend more money and time on installing gimmick technology.

The "code" is written primarily by the manufacturers who have a vested interest in pushing new, more costly products.

The inspectors (many, not all) are just parroting what marketing literature they've been subjected to.

If you look up who makes the NEC committees, I think you'd find that wasn't true. Unless your tin foil hat is impossible to remove

http://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/document-information-pages?mode=code&code=70&tab=committee

That's the beauty of these allegations, how to you disprove a conspiracy?

 

[Ray-CA]

I believe that if you put a GFIC outlet as the first one in the circuit, it protects all the down stream outlets as well. You might ask the inspector if that would be satisfactory.

Ray

 

[Rock knocker]

I believe that if you put a GFIC outlet as the first one in the circuit, it protects all the down stream outlets as well. You might ask the inspector if that would be satisfactory.

Ray

That wasn't the question

 

[Ray-CA]

That wasn't the question

It does give the OP a different method of satisfying the inspector especially since he mentioned that the breaker box is full and there isn't any more room for GFI=breakers.

Ray

 

[Rock knocker]

It does give the OP a different method of satisfying the inspector especially since he mentioned that the breaker box is full and there isn't any more room for GFI=breakers.

Ray

Not GFCI's, the OP needs AFCI's, which are only breakers

 

[Whitworth]

If you look up who makes the NEC committees, I think you'd find that wasn't true. Unless your tin foil hat is impossible to remove

http://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/document-information-pages?mode=code&code=70&tab=committee

That's the beauty of these allegations, how to you disprove a conspiracy?

OMG !!

Did you read your own link? It's a who's who of the electrical industry.

 

[Rock knocker]

OMG !!

Did you read your own link? It's a who's who of the electrical industry.

Yes, who should write the code. To help your memory, you said:

The "code" is written primarily by the manufacturers who have a vested interest in pushing new, more costly products.

And if you look at the NEC committees, you'll see that they are composed of manufacturers, trades, UL, contractors, labs, insurance, university, instructors, fire departments, inspectors and officials. It's not manufacturers spoon feeding the trade and cities.

Sorry to burst your bubble

 

[straightupmad]

To the OP, the inspector stated this requirement at it is in the most current NEC (Section 210.12), so if your area is under the 2014 NEC, it is technically required. Any circuit that is replaced, modified, or extended in areas that require AFCIs under 210.12 shall have AFCI protection.

Not GFCI's, the OP needs AFCI's, which are only breakers

AFCI protection can also be met by installing a AFCI receptacle as the most up stream receptacle.

Just as an example: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-...AFCI-Receptacle-White-R02-AFTR1-0KW/204290242

 

[Rock knocker]

Wa L&I is using the 2014 code. Other locations in Washington being inspected by the locals can use earlier editions

 

[Lassen Forge]

Just a side note - you ONLY use ONE GFI plug; the first one in the circuit (as per Straightupmad's post above) Everything downstream of it is GFI'd. If you put 2 in it will defeat the GFI.

I don't think I've pulled a permit to replace a receptacle. That seems kind of overkill.

 

[Whitworth]

Yes, who should write the code. To help your memory, you said:




And if you look at the NEC committees, you'll see that they are composed of manufacturers, trades, UL, contractors, labs, insurance, university, instructors, fire departments, inspectors and officials. It's not manufacturers spoon feeding the trade and cities.

Sorry to burst your bubble

Anybody representing the consumer? Is it a cross section of the American population, or a skewed pool of interests? Is a senior officer at Eaton corporation or General Electric unbiased as to what benefits their company?

 

[KenC]

Anybody representing the consumer? Is it a cross section of the American population, or a skewed pool of interests? Is a senior officer at Eaton corporation or General Electric unbiased as to what benefits their company?

Lots of people there that either benefit from sale and/or installation or don't have any skin in the game at all (ie: universities/cities) and none that would perform or present a cost/benefit analysis for the consumer.

In my recent personal experience, I removed 12 GFCIs that had been installed for around 8-10 years. I was going to reuse them in my shop. NONE worked. And nobody knew that, since no periodic testing was performed. That is the sort of thing a thorough analysis, before implementation, should prevent.



Forcing installation of unreliable safety features just increases cost and may cause unsafe behavior since people think they are working. Why not try this old extension cord, the GFCI or AFCI will protect me, right??

IMO, no member or company that writes rules should benefit monetarily from the implementation of said rule. The temptation is just too strong to represent self instead of the general well being.

 

[gregtwojeeps]

Then, there are the "gray" areas to deal with. When we were looking at a house to buy we found one that had been "lipsticked" to the max, with new windows, doors, woodwork, paint, cabinets, on and on....

The home inspector passed all of the electrical. The house had all new white switches, outlets, fixtures and new GFCI's where needed.... As we walked through the house with the realtor I thought to myself, cool, this old house has ALL new electrical in it...

Every outlet tested o.k. so the old romex must have had a grounding conductor in it ? Right ? The flipper had installed all new devices in the house but, did not update any wiring or the 1959 electrical service it had....

Who was to catch him making the upgrades on devices and not upgrading the old wiring/service ? Was he going to call a electrical inspector in ...on his own flip ? Noooo freakin' way.. What he did is happening out here in a house somewhere EVERYDAY .... and then put up for sale. jmo

 

[Norcal]

Then, there are the "gray" areas to deal with. When we were looking at a house to buy we found one that had been "lipsticked" to the max, with new windows, doors, woodwork, paint, cabinets, on and on....

The home inspector passed all of the electrical. The house had all new white switches, outlets, fixtures and new GFCI's where needed.... As we walked through the house with the realtor I thought to myself, cool, this old house has ALL new electrical in it...

Every outlet tested o.k. so the old romex must have had a grounding conductor in it ? Right ? The flipper had installed all new devices in the house but, did not update any wiring or the 1959 electrical service it had....

Who was to catch him making the upgrades on devices and not upgrading the old wiring/service ? Was he going to call a electrical inspector in ...on his own flip ? Noooo freakin' way.. What he did is happening out here in a house somewhere EVERYDAY .... and then put up for sale. jmo

Home inspectors are not code inspectors, & in a lot of cases are worthless.

Houses sold by "flippers" should be required to disclose it in the real estate disclosures required by many States as a defect.

 

[checkthisout]

Forcing installation of unreliable safety features just increases cost and may cause unsafe behavior since people think they are working. Why not try this old extension cord, the GFCI or AFCI will protect me, right??

I have heavy anti-government leanings, at the same time, I can see why there is a strong push for things like GFCI's and AFCI's. I definitely share you concerns that the things probably won't work anymore in 20-30 years when they would be needed the most.

Here is a wire I pulled from the wall on my current project:

View media item 50119
It was in this wall cavity shown below which I rewired to move the bathroom outlet. I was originally going to fish the wire but noticed the wall cavity wasn't as deep as it should be....it was filled with mouse and rat ****. The mice had bared the wire which lead to the arcing (black spot) shown in the above photo. This wire was embedded in thousands upon thousands of dried seed casings and ****.

I don't have a before pic but this was after I removed the wallboard and cleaned it up and put some paint on it to lock in the stink. The inspector passed this rewire I closed it in today.

View media item 50122
The below pic gives you an idea of what the above cavity looked like before. This one is behind the kitchen sink....thankfully no damaged wires here:

View media item 50124
The below picture is of the range plug. I can only hypothesize, but the original rough-in must have been off so someone cut a hole out of the drywall, clipped the last wire strap, notched the stud, brought the wire through the notch and installed it in a different box. They wrapped the wire around the ground screw which I didn't think was to code. The range plug was also charred and pulled right off the wires without loosening the screws.

If you look closely you can see the damage to the black wire where it had been abrading on the box which wore the insulation which of course then contacted the innards of the metal box and then box pop....damaged wire. This was an in in-law I hardly knew but I guess he had always complained that only part of the stove worked....

Anyways...in this pic I moved it back over to the original box, restrapped the wire and put a ground connector on the wire before attaching it to the ground screw in the box.

View media item 50121

 

[checkthisout]

Then, there are the "gray" areas to deal with. When we were looking at a house to buy we found one that had been "lipsticked" to the max, with new windows, doors, woodwork, paint, cabinets, on and on....

The home inspector passed all of the electrical. The house had all new white switches, outlets, fixtures and new GFCI's where needed.... As we walked through the house with the realtor I thought to myself, cool, this old house has ALL new electrical in it...

Every outlet tested o.k. so the old romex must have had a grounding conductor in it ? Right ? The flipper had installed all new devices in the house but, did not update any wiring or the 1959 electrical service it had....

Who was to catch him making the upgrades on devices and not upgrading the old wiring/service ? Was he going to call a electrical inspector in ...on his own flip ? Noooo freakin' way.. What he did is happening out here in a house somewhere EVERYDAY .... and then put up for sale. jmo

I disagree here. What's wrong with replacing the ratty old outlets but not upgrading the wiring?

The bank's inspector should have noted that none of the grounds in the outlets were functional.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Yes, inspector came and checked and signed off so I could enclose walls.

That's how he got ya,around here when you open walls it puts you into whatever the current code is.

 

[checkthisout]

To the OP, the inspector stated this requirement at it is in the most current NEC (Section 210.12), so if your area is under the 2014 NEC, it is technically required. Any circuit that is replaced, modified, or extended in areas that require AFCIs under 210.12 shall have AFCI protection.

AFCI protection can also be met by installing a AFCI receptacle as the most up stream receptacle.

Just as an example: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-...AFCI-Receptacle-White-R02-AFTR1-0KW/204290242

I put the 3 in that he stated we needed. Looks like I got room for 2 more.

I think they call this a split buss panel? The upper part is always hot and the range, dryer and a couple baseboard heating loops are there. The rest is isolated by a 100 amp breaker.

I assume I have the slots but I assume the upper part of the panel is off limits to 110 volts breakers????

View media item 50123

 

[bczygan]

Why in HELL did you pull a permit?

 

[checkthisout]

That's how he got ya,around here when you open walls it puts you into whatever the current code is.

He didn't state that as the deciding factor.

I specifically asked him about changing outlets and switches in the rest of the house and if we needed a permit.

He said yes and that we would then need to upgrade any circuits in which we change out outlets or switches with AFCI's.

And I asked him twice for clarification.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

I disagree here. What's wrong with replacing the ratty old outlets but not upgrading the wiring?

The bank's inspector should have noted that none of the grounds in the outlets were functional.

So were the grounds jumped to the neutral on the outlets to make them look legit when testing them?

 

[Norcal]

Why are Siemens breakers in a GE panel? Unless they are UL classified for GE panels, they have no business there.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

He didn't state that as the deciding factor.

I specifically asked him about changing outlets and switches in the rest of the house and if we needed a permit.

He said yes and that we would then need to upgrade any circuits in which we change out outlets or switches with AFCI's.

And I asked him twice for clarification.

Id say hes really pushing it then,what does he expect you to do about existing circuits sharing neutrals?

 

[checkthisout]

Why in HELL did you pull a permit?

Were selling the house. Permits are all the rage these days....ya know...Holmes on Holmes and those two incestuous remodel brothers.

The cost of the permit will more than be recovered when we sell the house.

 

[gregtwojeeps]

I disagree here. What's wrong with replacing the ratty old outlets but not upgrading the wiring?

The bank's inspector should have noted that none of the grounds in the outlets were functional.

It is all about perception I guess and doing what is right. A person makes new just about every aspect of a 1959 model home that is easily visible to the suspect buyer. Then, leaves the 1959 electrical system in it, the 1959 plumbing IE: cast iron drains and steel pipes, galvanized water pipes in it...

It is called "lipsticking" a home for resale whether it is done by the PO or an investor as a flip. If the suspect (prospective) buyer does not get a sharp inspector or knows nothing about the aspects of home construction/mechanical/electrical components... then they are the ones that get taken. I for one, could not sleep at night knowing that I had "lipsticked" a house and had left the 1959 electrical/plumbing systems in it. Each to their own I guess. jmo

 

[checkthisout]

Id say hes really pushing it then,what does he expect you to do about existing circuits sharing neutrals?

I guess you're not allowed to replace outlets and switches without permits and upgrade unless it's 1 at a time as they fail?