Halon Fire Extinguishers. How old is old?

[abstamaria]

In the 1980s, I bought several Halon fire extinguishers for my cars then. I now have some cars with no fire extinguishers and thought of using them. They have no gauges, but are still quite heavy. One can feel the fluid sloshing around inside. They were made by Chubb, a good manufacturer.

It's not that I'm trying to save money. It is just that Halon has been to me the best extinguishing agent, especially for collectible cars. Outside the U.S., Halon is no longer available. The substitute clean agent is Halotron, although Halon I understand is more efficient and preferred (for instance, in aircraft).

Would it be foolhardy of me to use these 30-year-old fire extinguishers? Advice much appreciated.

Andy

 

[txvwnut]

While they may fine I wouldn't use them.

One for the fact that Halon is a dagerous chemical as it ***** out all the oxygen in the area. Which is the reason its not made anymore.

Two for the fact that the gauge may say it has pressure but it may not and you don't even know if the chemical agent would still be effective in fighting a fire.

 

[Zrexxer]

While they may fine I wouldn't use them.

One for the fact that Halon is a dagerous chemical as it ***** out all the oxygen in the area. Which is the reason its not made anymore.

Two for the fact that the gauge may say it has pressure but it may not and you don't even know if the chemical agent would still be effective in fighting a fire.

Some misinformation there...

Halon is actually a remarkably safe firefighting agent with respect to human exposure. It's a common misconception that it "***** out all the oxygen the area." And unlike CO2, it requires such a small volume to extinguish a fire that it doesn't even displace the air out of the area where it's dispensed.

It is no longer produced in the US not because it's dangerous, but because because it's a CFC - an ozone depleting substance. Its manufacture was halted by 1994 amendments to the Clean Air Act

 

[rlitman]

One for the fact that Halon is a dagerous chemical as it ***** out all the oxygen in the area. Which is the reason its not made anymore.

Two for the fact that the gauge may say it has pressure but it may not and you don't even know if the chemical agent would still be effective in fighting a fire.

1) Halon does not **** any oxygen. Total BS. It's byproducts in a fire are toxic, but not nearly as toxic as the byproducts of the fire itself. You'll die from smoke inhalation long before the halon has any effect on you.

2a) Yes, the gauge may indeed be bad. If it has no pressure, it may not work. That is true. Though these tanks should be fed through a siphon, so if the valve (and not the stem or gauge) were leaking, the liquid would be lost, and the tank would lose weight.

The real question is what type of Halon system is it? Some halon is gaseous halon over liquid (when the pressurizing gas does not liquidify in the tank), while some is liquid only (there is gas, but it's the same composition as the liquid; much like a CO2 extinguisher). If the latter system is used, only the weight of the cylinder needs to be verified to know that it is still full. However those systems WILL NOT HAVE A GAUGE. So if you do not have a gauge, you just need a scale to verify that your extinguisher is full.

2b) The chemical agent will still work. Halon does not decompose when stored pressurized in a steel cylinder.

 

[rlitman]

Some misinformation there...

You beat me to it.

 

[pepi]

Halon is a dangerous................ NOT, only in a closed environment, every data center uses it, with big warnings about the not being in the room.

Bed wetter, everything is dangerous if the user practices are ignored. Like driving a train twice the speed thru a curve.

Back on the subject, I would think that Halon extinguishers have been around long enough that you can get a real answer to your question.
Is there not a manufacture label with contact information on the extinguisher, a real knowledgeable resource? Forums…………. Have no verifiable credentials in regards to the competency of a peculiar poster, and always needs to be considered when reading some of the **** written.

 

[LifeLongWNYer]

....not to mention that if a Halon extinguisher is used to put out a fire, there is no cleanup required, as there is with a dry powder extinguisher.

Try cleaning out a car after one of those has been used in it!




.

 

[1redTA]

I'd use the Halon extinguisher, you have it and are familiar with its "clean" properties.

 

[abstamaria]

Thank you, all. I knew this was the right place to ask.

I did check the manufacturer's pages, as they have no presence here, pepi. Their basic advice is turn all the halon extinguishers in, because they have become illegal.

I won't quarrel with the rationale for the ban, but do wish there were as good an agent as halon available.

rlitman, yes, the extinguisher has no gauge, so your advice is quite useful. Here is the actual bottle.

Many thanks, and regards,

Andy

 

[rlitman]

I don't see the picture, but there should be a stamped name-plate that indicates the tare weight (empty weight, possibly marked TW), and the weight of the contents, the makeup of the contents (see below), plus possibly the full weight.

Straight halon 1211 is a liquid under nitrogen pressure (though it has a vapor pressure of around 22PSI on its own, it cannot rely on that to operate). These would have a gauge.
Halon 1301 is a gaseous pressurized halon. Systems that use a blend of 1211/1301 do not require a gauge, as their vapor pressure is sufficient to expel the liquid contents (just like CO2 extinguishers).

Oh, and Halotron 1 is not the only clean agent still available (and it is being phased out BTW).
FE-36 is the newest clean agent on the market (with no sunset date yet).

 

[Gerald O]

Halon has not become illegal. You can still get halon extinguishers and legally use them. They just can't manufacture new halon anymore.

 

[Zrexxer]

Their basic advice is turn all the halon extinguishers in, because they have become illegal.

Much like R-12 refrigerant, since it's not manufactured anymore the available supply of Halon consists entirely of recovered and recycled material. SO yes, I'm sure they'd love for you to "turn them in..." Free Halon supply for them.

 

[mossyboy6]

Firefighter here.
Honestly, halon is the best ABC extinguishing agent that there is. Unfortunately, old extinguishers are highly unreliable. I would suggest getting the can inspected.

 

[dutchgray]

My advice would be keep it and use it if the need arises, but also buy a new extinguisher of which ever type you prefer, as its one of those items where having more on hand is a good thing.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

While they may fine I wouldn't use them.

Blah, blah, blah............

TOTAL misinformation there...

Fixed it for you................

 

[reader2580]

Computer rooms have been using FM200 as an alternative since the 1990s. My employer's old building had two computer rooms built in the 1990s and they both have FM200. A computer room from the early 1970s still had halon. I think the halon was original, but it had been inspected regularly.

 

[abstamaria]

Glabal Ban

Halon has not become illegal. You can still get halon extinguishers and legally use them. They just can't manufacture new halon anymore.

Thanks, Gerald. I’ve done some reading on this. It may depend on where you live. The USA might be the only country where it is still lawful to refill Halon extinguishers. On the UK extinguisher company Chubb’s site, Chubb advises-

"31 DECEMBER 2002
The last day that existing Halon systems may be recharged with recycled or reclaimed Halon. After this date, if a Halon suppression system discharges it is effectively useless. The equipment it is designed to protect will be vulnerable until a new system can be purchased, installed and commissioned."

"31 DECEMBER 2003
By this date all existing Halon systems must have been decommissioned and the Halon itself must have been disposed of by an approved contractor. Halon portable extinguishers must also be taken out of service by this date. Although Halon systems are still permitted in certain specialist applications (mainly military*) the export of Halon is severely restricted. Halon therefore now has a negative value, requiring certified disposal."

It seems mandatory decommissioning and proper disposal is required, so that may mean possession is unlawful in many countries.

The incidental effect of this is that Chubb, the manufacturer of my fire extinguishers, will not advise on how to check existing units.

 

[abstamaria]

Weight

I don't see the picture, but there should be a stamped name-plate that indicates the tare weight (empty weight, possibly marked TW), and the weight of the contents, the makeup of the contents (see below), plus possibly the full weight.

Straight halon 1211 is a liquid under nitrogen pressure (though it has a vapor pressure of around 22PSI on its own, it cannot rely on that to operate). These would have a gauge.
Halon 1301 is a gaseous pressurized halon. Systems that use a blend of 1211/1301 do not require a gauge, as their vapor pressure is sufficient to expel the liquid contents (just like CO2 extinguishers).

Oh, and Halotron 1 is not the only clean agent still available (and it is being phased out BTW).
FE-36 is the newest clean agent on the market (with no sunset date yet).

Many thanks, rlitman. Your advice is consistent with what I've read on the Net, but more specific and detailed. Many thanks. I must have 1301 (the label doesn't say), as there is no gauge on the bottle.

The total mass figure that must have been written on the label has long since disappeared, I am afraid. The weight of each of the two bottles (1.5Kg models) is identical, 2.4Kg.

Chubb adds, "there is no drop-in substitute for Halon," clearly the best extinguishing agent yet, but bad for the atmosphere.

 

[abstamaria]

Can't have too many.

My advice would be keep it and use it if the need arises, but also buy a new extinguisher of which ever type you prefer, as its one of those items where having more on hand is a good thing.

I agree, Dutchgray. The only problem is that I have to choose which one to carry in the car!

Andy

 

[abstamaria]

Firefighter

Firefighter here.
Honestly, halon is the best ABC extinguishing agent that there is. Unfortunately, old extinguishers are highly unreliable. I would suggest getting the can inspected.

Many thanks, Mossyboy6. It's good to hear from a firefighter. An inspection service is no longer available here and most likely anywhere outside the USA. From the weight, it seems the bottles are full, but I worry the mechanism might be defective by now. So your point on reliability of old extinguishers is well taken.

Best,

Andy

 

[txvwnut]

While they may fine I wouldn't use them.

One for the fact that Halon is a dagerous chemical as it ***** out all the oxygen in the area. Which is the reason its not made anymore.

Two for the fact that the gauge may say it has pressure but it may not and you don't even know if the chemical agent would still be effective in fighting a fire.

Sorry for the mis-information, I was just going off of what I was told when we quit using halon in our transit bus suppression systems and our aircraft fire fighting equipment.

I would still be sketchy about using a thirty year old fire extinguisher.

Hell I'm sketchy about using a two minute old extinguisher as I have been handed a brand new out of the box extinguisher and it was dead on pressure even though the gauge read go-to-go.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

While they may fine I wouldn't use them.

One for the fact that Halon is a dagerous chemical as it ***** out all the oxygen in the area. Which is the reason its not made anymore.

Not so. Halon was discontinued from NEW manufacturing as it is an ozone depleting chemical. You can still get it and Halon is still in wide use. ALL gaseous fire extinguishers displace some amount of oxygen, along with cooling and smothering action of the chemical. Halon also disrupts the actual chemical reaction that creates fire. There's more to it, but that's the base.

Tommy

 

[racingtadpole]

Threads like this scare me. A fire extinguisher is a piece of safety equipment that you hope you never have to use. Im not sure why anyone would consider using a 30yr old unit full of a substance that is banned in pretty much every civilised country in the world when for under $30 you can have a brand new one. When in doubt...throw it out (responsibly).

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_s...684181,k:dry+chemical+fire+extinguisher&ajr=0

 

[rlitman]

Because you cannot replace a halon fire extinguisher for $30.
Because GOOD fire extinguishers are made to last many decades, and still work reliably.
Because the international ban on halon extinguishers has NOTHING to do with how well they work or how dangerous they are or are not.
Because cheap brand new fire extinguishers are just as likely to fail.

When in doubt, GET IT CHECKED OUT. A quality extinguisher is not disposable.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Threads like this scare me. A fire extinguisher is a piece of safety equipment that you hope you never have to use. Im not sure why anyone would consider using a 30yr old unit full of a substance that is banned in pretty much every civilised country in the world when for under $30 you can have a brand new one. When in doubt...throw it out (responsibly).

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_s...684181,k:dry+chemical+fire+extinguisher&ajr=0

As noted in several other posts, the halon in that fire extinguisher has not been banned from use, it simply has been banned from further manufacture. The extinguisher has a published weight. I suspect it is on there in the fine print somewhere, and if it is of the proper weight then it is properly charged. There is no real reason to expect it not to work when discharged. As noted, they are designed to last for many years.

Charles

 

[racingtadpole]

Because you cannot replace a halon fire extinguisher for $30.
Because GOOD fire extinguishers are made to last many decades, and still work reliably.
Because the international ban on halon extinguishers has NOTHING to do with how well they work or how dangerous they are or are not.
Because cheap brand new fire extinguishers are just as likely to fail.

When in doubt, GET IT CHECKED OUT. A quality extinguisher is not disposable.

As noted in several other posts, the halon in that fire extinguisher has not been banned from use, it simply has been banned from further manufacture. The extinguisher has a published weight. I suspect it is on there in the fine print somewhere, and if it is of the proper weight then it is properly charged. There is no real reason to expect it not to work when discharged. As noted, they are designed to last for many years.

Charles

You obviously see things differently to how I do, thats cool..

 

[plow]

Firefighter here.
Honestly, halon is the best ABC extinguishing agent that there is. Unfortunately, old extinguishers are highly unreliable. I would suggest getting the can inspected.

No Sir. Halon has very little class A fire fighting ability.

 

[plow]

Re: Firefighter

Many thanks, Mossyboy6. It's good to hear from a firefighter. An inspection service is no longer available here and most likely anywhere outside the USA. From the weight, it seems the bottles are full, but I worry the mechanism might be defective by now. So your point on reliability of old extinguishers is well taken.

Best,

Andy

**** can it. You need to have pressure on it weather it's 1301 or 1211. The weight could be dead on, but very little pressure. You cant verify that without a gauge. Back in the day halon was dirt cheap. They actually preformed discharge tests when installing new systems. hauling that POS around will only give you a false sense of security. Not only that it's not intended for class A fires. And if memory serves, Not that much better on class b fires. Dry Chemical ABC makes a mess, but you want to put the fire out before it gets away from you. Using the wrong extinguisher could easily make a bad situation worse.

FWIW, I've been in the fire protection biz 23 years now. alot of that time has been recharging and inspecting portable fire extinguishers as well as installing special hazard systems(FM200, Ecaro, Novec, Low and High Pressure Co2, Dry Chem, Wet Chem etc) and inspecting them.

Good luck.

 

[rlitman]

No Sir. Halon has very little class A fire fighting ability.

It's true that it is a lousy class A extinguisher, but is -slightly- superior to the current clean-agent choices. CO2 by comparison has nearly zero class A ability. In fairness, if you're only going to have one extinguisher in a garage, a drychem ABC is a much better choice.

**** can it. You need to have pressure on it weather it's 1301 or 1211. The weight could be dead on, but very little pressure. You cant verify that without a gauge.

Really?!? So show me a CO2 extinguisher with a gauge. Halon extinguishers without a gauge do not need one.

 

[NUTTSGT]

In the 1980s, I bought several Halon fire extinguishers for my cars then. I now have some cars with no fire extinguishers and thought of using them. They have no gauges, but are still quite heavy. One can feel the fluid sloshing around inside. They were made by Chubb, a good manufacturer.

It's not that I'm trying to save money. It is just that Halon has been to me the best extinguishing agent, especially for collectible cars. Outside the U.S., Halon is no longer available. The substitute clean agent is Halotron, although Halon I understand is more efficient and preferred (for instance, in aircraft).

Would it be foolhardy of me to use these 30-year-old fire extinguishers? Advice much appreciated.

Andy

Since you have it, I'd use it.

Better yet, buy your new ones and mount both in car. If the need arises, attempt to use the older halon extinguisher first. If it fails, grab the new one. If the halon one works, bravo, job well done and you can discard the old cylinder. Problem solved.

 

[abstamaria]

Many thanks, all. Quite a quandary for me really, as my only reasonable alternatives to Halon are Halotron and AFFF. If I could buy a brand-new Halon extinguisher, that would be an easy choice.

I used a plumbed-in AFFF system in my race car, and wonder sometimes whether that is preferable to Halotron (I read that one would need 50% more Halotron than Halon.) AFFF will leave a mess in the interior, but, yes, of course preferable to the mess left by a fire.

Andy

 

[plow]

It's true that it is a lousy class A extinguisher, but is -slightly- superior to the current clean-agent choices. CO2 by comparison has nearly zero class A ability. In fairness, if you're only going to have one extinguisher in a garage, a drychem ABC is a much better choice.



Really?!? So show me a CO2 extinguisher with a gauge. Halon extinguishers without a gauge do not need one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by plow View Post
**** can it. You need to have pressure on it weather it's 1301 or 1211. The weight could be dead on, but very little pressure. You cant verify that without a gauge.






Read my post. I'm not referring to a Co2 extinguisher here. Halon type extinguishers most certainly need a gauge. They are what we call stored pressure types and rely on being pressurized with nitrogen to be able to operate. Co2 makes it's own pressure. If you had a cup full or a gallon in a container the pressure would be the same.

I suspect what the op has is a crappy low end type. Remember the crappy Dry chemicals that you pressed the button to tell if it was any good? They were meant to last a finite amount of time sitting on the shelf and then thrown away. If you did have to use it, It was not serviceable.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

**** can it.

This would be the LAST thing you would want to do with it. Considering that the extinguisher companies empty out old extinguishers that are otherwise unusable, for reclaiming and reusing the Halon, the stuff is like gold. When one is accidentally discharged on an airliner, someone "cries" due to the loss of the agent.

http://www.halon.us/

Top dollars paid for your Halon 1301

We overnight all shipping documents
We pay for all transportation costs
We can supply shipping crates to for ease of transportation
We pay on gross agent weight recieved and checks are sent imediately upon delivery.
No deductions for nitrogen or loss during transfer
We will meet or beat any competitve offer.
All Halon is purchased for Essential uses only in accordance with all applicablie evironmental regulations
We purchase Halon on behalf of Meggitt Safety Systems for use in production of Aircraft Fire Safety Systems

Charles

 

[abstamaria]

Gauges

Quote: Halon type extinguishers most certainly need a gauge. They are what we call stored pressure types and rely on being pressurized with nitrogen to be able to operate. Co2 makes it's own pressure. If you had a cup full or a gallon in a container the pressure would be the same.

Hello, Plow. From the research I’ve done, I believe rlitman is right. In his earlier messagea, which was quite instructive to me and which I appreciate, rlitman distinguishes between two types of Halon agents, 1211 and 1211-1301. 1211 fire extinguishers require a gauge for the reasons he explained. Extinguishers that use 1301 or a blend of 1211/1301 don’t need and, as far as I can tell, usually don’t carry a gauge.

From a FAQ on the net on halon – “The Halon 1211-1301 fire extinguisher does not require a gauge, whereas the Halon 1211 fire extinguisher requires a gauge and ongoing maintenance and recharging.”

By the way, “Halon 1301 is a flooding agent that is stored as a gas and discharges as a gas. But according to H3R, there are no 1301 portable extinguishers in use except in the military, and you can't buy one.”

H3R, a manufacturer of Halon and other extinguishers, adds – “H3R's line of Halon fire extinguishers for light aircraft includes a mix of straight 1211 units (with pressure gauges) and blended 1211-1301 units (disposable units without gauges).” Usually, experimental and high altitude aircraft use 1211-1301 blends.

I appreciate your comments, though, Plow.

Andy

 

[abstamaria]

Not crappy, which is the problem

Quote:
I suspect what the op has is a crappy low end type. Remember the crappy Dry chemicals that you pressed the button to tell if it was any good? They were meant to last a finite amount of time sitting on the shelf and then thrown away. If you did have to use it, It was not serviceable.

They were not the supermarket-variety, Plow, but were made by either Quell or Chubb, Australian and UK companies, both well known in the industry. We also used them in our rally cars then, when we were a factory team with a good budget.

Here’s a photo.



The yellow ones are the old Halon units, and the chrome one is a new Halon H3R (obviously a 1211 with a gauge; it came with a car, but cannot be imported on its own). The old ones are much heavier and actually inspire more confidence than the new one. If they were crappy to begin with, I wouldn’t even consider them. It is that they seem to be good quality units, plus the fact that Halon is probably the best extinguishing agent for cars, that has posed the problem.

My handful of old cars have been with me for a long while, and have their old Halon fire extinguishers still. I wonder whether to replace them all.

 

[abstamaria]

In trying to read up as much as I can, I came across this, from the manufacturer H3R’s site. Let me just contribute it here. –

“Another advantage of the 1211-1301 blend is that the extinguisher itself is virtually maintenance free, with no pressure gauge. Gauged units (like straight Halon 1211 extinguishers) are subject to maintenance regulations determined by the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA): monthly visual inspections, a six-year maintenance check and a 12-year hydrostatic cylinder test are required. Both maintenance procedures involve removing the extinguisher from the aircraft and taking it to an appropriate service company.”

From another site - “The 1211/1301 blend does not require a six year maintenance, hydrostatic testing, or recharging. The units should be visually inspected to ensure the extinguisher is fully charged and operable. Fullness is determined by weighing or "hefting" the unit.”

 

[abstamaria]

Maintaining 1211-1301 Halon Extinguishers

In trying to read up as much as I can, I came across this, from the manufacturer H3R’s site. Let me just contribute it here. –

“Another advantage of the 1211-1301 blend is that the extinguisher itself is virtually maintenance free, with no pressure gauge. Gauged units (like straight Halon 1211 extinguishers) are subject to maintenance regulations determined by the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA): monthly visual inspections, a six-year maintenance check and a 12-year hydrostatic cylinder test are required. Both maintenance procedures involve removing the extinguisher from the aircraft and taking it to an appropriate service company.”

From another site - “The 1211/1301 blend does not require a six year maintenance, hydrostatic testing, or recharging. The units should be visually inspected to ensure the extinguisher is fully charged and operable. Fullness is determined by weighing or "hefting" the unit.”

 

[plow]

I wish you would heed my advice. Good luck.

 

[justanengineer]

Re: Gauges

By the way, “Halon 1301 is a flooding agent that is stored as a gas and discharges as a gas. But according to H3R, there are no 1301 portable extinguishers in use except in the military, and you can't buy one.”

I wasnt going to comment on an already argumentative thread that I admittedly know little about nor care about, but since the military was mentioned as a user and folks might use that as justification for halon I feel obligated....

A dozen'ish years ago now my guys spent a week pulling ALL halon extinguishers from the fire suppression systems in military vehicles and disposing of them, even on <1 year old vehicles. The reason for it was that a Stryker had rolled and caught fire, the suppression system kicked on, and most of the crew died bc they couldnt escape nor breathe. I dont know if it displaced the oxygen, chemically combined with the oxygen, or other fumes were caused bc of it, but I do know it caused an Army wide mandatory work order and the halon was blamed for what wouldve been an otherwise minor fire/accident with a high/total survival rate. IIRC we replaced the halon with standard ABC canisters, regardless, the systems werent modified otherwise.

I dont know if halon is considered dangerous or not, or if that was a rare/special situation. Regardless, I havent touched a halon extinguisher since nor will I willingly.

 

[abstamaria]

Thanks, plow. I'm still undecided, but appreciate your advice. Many thanks, justanengineer, all.

Best,

Andy