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Should a Torque Wrench Be Used When Changing Brake Pads

Chevy-SS

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I was told that not having the rotor fastened down would lead to inaccurate readings, is this not correct?

The reason I am asking is that I have the "acorn" style nuts on my cars so I would have to buy sets of "regular" open ended nuts to accomplish this.



You can put washers under your nuts...... :lol:

I guess I didn't explain very well in my post, but on the vehicle in pic (Ford F150 2WD) the rotor is NOT loose. If it was loose, then you are absolutely right...... the rotor must be solidly fastened. I usually use lug nuts and washers.

Some folks will say checking runout isn't necessary (and it isn't, not many techs do it), but IMHO this ensures that you will have smooth brakes for as long as possible. It's very easy to have a piece of rust or other debris stuck between the hub and rotor, and by checking the runout you are verifying that braking action will be smooth as silk, which is the way I like it........

I also clean the rotors with plenty of brake cleaner. Again, I see techs that don't do this....

And I still see techs jamming the lug nuts on with impact wrench - thus they really don't know if torque is correct, AND they often don't use criss-cross tightening pattern.

Bottom line - it takes almost no extra time to do a terrific job, versus an 'adequate' one.

-
 
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jacob_coulter

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I use one for the caliper bolts, but I'm just a shade tree hack. I like knowing exactly how much and this is one of those areas where a screwup can be costly.
 

Anarius

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if rotor runout is bad, remove rotor and clean the goobers off the wheel hub.:beer:

Clean every wheel hub :)!

Properly cleaned hubs are essential to a good brake job. Properly cleaned caliper brackets are essential to a good brake job.

This thread made me check the sales-by-item database at work today. We did 1388 brake jobs last year between myself and another tech at my location.

Not a SINGLE comeback. Haven't had a comeback for anything other than a parts defect in 3 years.
 

d.mcfarland

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That's awesome right there!

The only thing I can add here is that replacing caliper slide pins when necessary is mandatory. I've seen some on used cars that were pretty bad.
 

bahcoswed

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Mar 12, 2013
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Sweden
Why could you not use it for brake pads? I use my torque wrenches so much I can on my cars! Fore some weird reason I like to see my expensive tools get dirty and do what they are build for:)
 
OP
A

AR15Texan

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Jun 13, 2007
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82
Whats the matter OP, you dont trust the collective wisdom of ARFCOM GD? :lol_hitti

Oh you mean the same guys who will tell you that you don't really need a torque wrench to tighten the barrel nut on your AR15 build. That's only 65,000psi going off in microseconds 10" away from your face.
 
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AR15Texan

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You can put washers under your nuts...... :lol:

I guess I didn't explain very well in my post, but on the vehicle in pic (Ford F150 2WD) the rotor is NOT loose. If it was loose, then you are absolutely right...... the rotor must be solidly fastened. I usually use lug nuts and washers.

Some folks will say checking runout isn't necessary (and it isn't, not many techs do it), but IMHO this ensures that you will have smooth brakes for as long as possible. It's very easy to have a piece of rust or other debris stuck between the hub and rotor, and by checking the runout you are verifying that braking action will be smooth as silk, which is the way I like it........

I also clean the rotors with plenty of brake cleaner. Again, I see techs that don't do this....

And I still see techs jamming the lug nuts on with impact wrench - thus they really don't know if torque is correct, AND they often don't use criss-cross tightening pattern.

Bottom line - it takes almost no extra time to do a terrific job, versus an 'adequate' one.

-
I helped a friend with a brake job on his 2WD F-150. He bought new rotors and pads at all four corners. I just bought I new dial indicator and clamp base so we checked the runout. I thought there was no way it would hold the tight spec, but it was good to go.
 

zkling

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Jan 23, 2007
Messages
16,939
I torque everything. Maybe i'm just ocd about things like this. I work at Toyota and i know 2 tech, Tech A is slower but takes the time to torque everything down to spec. Tech B is really fast and zaps everything in(unless its in the engine or lug nuts, thats the only 2 things he torques to spec). Well guess who has zero comebacks and who gets them all the time?

:lol:
For some reason this reminds me of the ASE tests. "Technician A uses a torque wrench, technician B says that is not necessary for xyz. Who is correct?"
 
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ssbtech

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2) Threads, mating parts, and the interface between the underside of the head and the bolt or screw head must all be CLEAN and lubed with something. DRY torque means factory lubrication (like when the parts were brand new). WET means coated with paint, sealant, grease etc. There are no torque values for chalky, corroded, rusted bolts. The friction associated with the threads and the area under the head could react more than HALF of the total torque you apply. Forget about good torque wrenches or good torque wrench technique. If your hardware isn't clean and slightly oily, your torque values could be WAY off (i.e. zero preload- see next point)

Great post!

I posted in another thread asking about adjusting torque values for bolts with anti seize applied. In the example, I referenced suspension bolt torque specs from my factory service manual. The manual didn't indicate the use of any anti seize, so I assumed the spec was for a dry bolt and nut. One poster said that if the manual doesn't call for anti seize, then the spec is for a bone-dry fastener.

Looking at your post, it seems that there should be at the very least a light application of light oil to the fastener, then torque to the dry spec in the manual, correct?

And a question of mating surfaces - my understanding that part of the strength of a joint (such as between a strut clevis and steering knuckle, or a wheel and wheel hub) comes from the friction between mating surfaces generated by the preload of the bolt holding them together.

Would lubricating these surfaces as suggested not cause this friction value to be incorrect?
 

Adam.C

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Great post!
I posted in another thread asking about adjusting torque values for bolts with anti seize applied. In the example, I referenced suspension bolt torque specs from my factory service manual. The manual didn't indicate the use of any anti seize, so I assumed the spec was for a dry bolt and nut. One poster said that if the manual doesn't call for anti seize, then the spec is for a bone-dry fastener.

There's no such thing as a torque spec for a "bone dry fastener". "Dry" means whatever was on the fastener in the bag from the manufacturer. If the original finish was black oxide, the manufacturer will have applied some sort of additional protective coating (typically mineral oil). A "wet installed" fastener can mean wet with primer, or sealant. If anti-sieze is specified, or grease, wet torque values would be used by the factory. But most of the time, we specify torque explicitly. We don't often ask the shop to look up a torque value.

When the repair or maintenance manuals are written, the authors (not typically design engineers) reference whatever torque spec was called out by engineering. So likely what you see in whatever publication you have access to, is the spec used by the factory and assumes new hardware, clean parts etc.

And a question of mating surfaces - my understanding that part of the strength of a joint (such as between a strut clevis and steering knuckle, or a wheel and wheel hub) comes from the friction between mating surfaces generated by the preload of the bolt holding them together.

I guess I would need to see exactly what you are talking about. Typically, in an A arm style suspension, the joints at the steering knuckle squeeze up elastomeric bushings. The torque there needs to preload the elastomer to the right amount, not crush it, and not so loose that joint will knock. Lube in the joint would only help preserve the components. Friction won't change the dynamic response of the system for long.

In aerospace, we would never use friction as a structural load path as it changes with temperature etc.

Just remember- if it is important to the safe operation of the car, the hardware should be new or clean, the mating surfaces should be clean, a thin film of oil is often a good idea, and the area under the head is just as importnat as the threads are. Bolts should be torqued to factory specifications. If you aren't doing this, you are corner cutting and potentially creating problems down the road. Just because no one comes back to complain about your brake job doesn't mean what you did caused no harm. It can be difficult to understand every possible implication of not following the factory manual. Over torque can be just as bad as under toque so "killing" every bolt with an impact gun is not a reasonable mitigation plan.
 
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Crazy_Pilot

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a thin film of oil is often a good idea, and the area under the head is just as importnat as the threads are.

Excellent points, just want to add one small gotcha: Some folks go nuts with the anti-seize (particularly up here where they make the roads out of salt in the winter), especially between the rotor and hub face. Overdoing this can basically form a liquid gasket between the rotor and hub. The lug nuts will torque down, but as the parts warm up and the compound softens it will run out of the gap, reducing the preload on the studs.

I never torque bolts on the brakes, mainly because it isn't possible to get a ratchet on the upper caliper bracket bolt on my car. Doubled up wrenches all the way.
 

ssbtech

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There's no such thing as a torque spec for a "bone dry fastener". "Dry" means whatever was on the fastener in the bag from the manufacturer. If the original finish was black oxide, the manufacturer will have applied some sort of additional protective coating (typically mineral oil). A "wet installed" fastener can mean wet with primer, or sealant. If anti-sieze is specified, or grease, wet torque values would be used by the factory. But most of the time, we specify torque explicitly. We don't often ask the shop to look up a torque value.

When I did my suspension, I used new hardware but there wasn't any form of lubrication on the bolts sourced from the manufacturer. I think they were zinc plated (had a dull silver colour to them). I assembled with no anti-seize or lubrication.

If removing and reinstalling and the bolts are in good condition, would you then recommend light oil or just reinstall "dry" again? Oh, and they're a self-locking nut by way of what looks like a "cross thread" at the top of the nut. What about temporarily loosening something like this in order to turn the cam-bolt for alignment?


I guess I would need to see exactly what you are talking about. Typically, in an A arm style suspension, the joints at the steering knuckle squeeze up elastomeric bushings. The torque there needs to preload the elastomer to the right amount, not crush it, and not so loose that joint will knock. Lube in the joint would only help preserve the components. Friction won't change the dynamic response of the system for long.

So in this case it was a macpherson strut. Knuckle from the wheel hub is held captive between the clevis bracket on the strut, secured with two bolts. One regular bolt, the other a cam-bolt for camber adjustment.

Because the bolts don't fill the holes entirely (especially the camber bolt), there is potential for slip of the knuckle in the bracket. I suppose the knuckle could also spin the camber bolt out of alignment too. So it would appear that the friction between the clevis bracket and knuckle generated by the bolt preload forms at least part of the joint.

There's paint on the strut and clevis bracket, but no anti-seize or oil.

Cheers :)
 

Qualitytools

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Yes. In each example given no mechanical locking is typically used. The fasteners maintain their torque only via their stretch, which functions like a spring washer.

Loss of torque in caliper bolts can lead to catastrophic failure of the system. Were the system to fail, and injury or property damage resulted, a design defect lawsuit between the injured party and the vehicle manufacturer would very quickly include the repair shop. In that moment, the repair shop must be able to say they replaced the system components with suitable parts in accordance with the factory manuals. In short, if you are aren't torquing fasteners in your shop, you are taking shortcuts to save yourself money, and you are providing your shop a competitive advantage at the expense of the customers' safety. That is where every attorney and judge will go.

Beside the risk of system failure, which I personally believe to be SUPER rare, under torquing and over torquing can lead to corrosion, and or reducing the lifespan of the components.

Regarding lug nuts, improper torquing can lead to premature rotor warppage and failure of other components.

Here's what you need to know about torque:
1) Formula 1 teams torque everything. Its the right thing to do. It's what good mechanics do.

2) Threads, mating parts, and the interface between the underside of the head and the bolt or screw head must all be CLEAN and lubed with something. DRY torque means factory lubrication (like when the parts were brand new). WET means coated with paint, sealant, grease etc. There are no torque values for chalky, corroded, rusted bolts. The friction associated with the threads and the area under the head could react more than HALF of the total torque you apply. Forget about good torque wrenches or good torque wrench technique. If your hardware isn't clean and slightly oily, your torque values could be WAY off (i.e. zero preload- see next point)

3) Engineers don't care about torque. We care only about bolt preload. And we really do need what we say we need. We preload bolts to prevent parts from seperating. Technically, if you applied no torque (bolt head just touching or hand tight) ANY load would seperate the parts. In a head, when you have 20,000lbs (force) from cylinder pressure trying to lift the head off the block, the mechanic must produce 20,000lbs of clamping force by preloading the fasteners to keep the head on the block.

Some parts can fail mechanically when seperated. They are bolted together because they are stronger together. Some parts require contact pressure for sealing (water pumps). Sometimes we need contact pressure to keep moisture, which causes corrosion, out.

4) Think of bolts as a row of buttons on a tufted sofa back. Pull the buttons too hard, and the material festoons between the buttons. That can happen with metal. Too much preload can produce gaps. So more isn't better,

5) Now think about your lug nuts/bolts. When you are driving and turn the steering wheel, the lugs keep the outside wheels on the car. Each lug in turn will see a greater percentage of that total load. The tighter bolts loads will be higher. Under torqued bolts could go from no load to load, no load to load. This is tremendously worse for the fatigue life of the bolt. Its better to have fatigue cycles above zero, than tension and compression (positive and negative load). All the components that fastener is attached to feels this same sensation.

Conclusion:
Improper torquing is a big deal about to get bigger. Manufacturers are designing lighter weight engine componnents to save weight. They are using more non-ferrous materials in cars. Composites, especially carbon, are very sensitive to torque, corrosion, and require careful sealing.

If you are a pro, suggest your shop hosts a "Torque Stand Down". Spend one hour of shop time to reinforce the importance of working clean, using your torque wrenches, and knowing where to find the correct torque specs. You could easily put a poster on the wall with the basics - dry torque vs socket size. Pretty sure I have already posted such info. Entitle your poster "We take longer to fix your car because we care about your family's safety".

No mechanic has hands sensitive enough to produce reliably torqued fasteners. Any mechanic who resists, challenge him to torque a bolt to 65 NM. Give him a generous +/-10Nm (way too much). Check the torque by tightening with a Snap On digital. If it moves at 55 he failed. Now loosen it. If it doesn't move at 75 he failed. (this is slightly unscientific but it will make the point).

Couldn't have said it better myself. I learned early on working with my dad that torquing is the safe and proper method. Now you need to make sure you have a proper (as in precise and accurate) torque tool.
 

MGmachine

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Apr 22, 2015
Messages
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For the guy checking the run-out above, it looks like you have your dial indicator on a magnetic stand that is on a drive on lift? That is incorrect way to mount. How are you sure that your wheel assembly is straight? Your rotor should be secured with lugs and your magnetic base on the hub itself.
 

franzdom

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Yes I do, and apparently from reading this thread a lot fewer people do than I would have thought.
For me this only reinforces the yearning to work on my own cars and not entrust them to others.
 
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