Putting a basement under my garage (& back yard) ?

[someguy11]

Here is an A300 loading a truck with loam.

Here is an A770 loading a truck with sand.

Here is another A300 video.

The bucket on the machine I'm looking at has a piece of grate added to the top so it holds a lot more. It also has knock on teeth on it.

A skid steer is obviously a lot slower than a wheel loader, but I thought the A300 was really good for being a skid steer. It seems to be about the most powerful machine I could work in my space.

I think the A770 is 10-15% more productive than the A300. Its a bit heavier and 91HP versus 80 something on the A300. I've read 85HP and 81HP for the A300. My friend says the A300 is really good on fuel and economical to run.

One of these JCB mini loaders would be super nice, but I'm not sure if they are maneuverable enough for my job.

Here is the brochure for the JCB 406.
http://www.wajaxequipment.com/pdf/products/brochures/Wheel_Loader_406B.pdf

They weigh nearly 11,000 pounds and are only 58/62HP. Would ride a lot better though ! Looking at the specs, the A300 is much closer to the 406 than I thought it would be.

The nice thing about the A300 is that if its tight for space you can flip the switch and it reverts to full skid steer mode for maneuverability.

I think its a non starter to try to dig the basement with any skid steer less than 6 foot/3,000 pound machine.

 

[ez-duzit]

...it seems a shame that I'm not planning for a way to get a car down in the basement...
And if we are going to use the basement as shop space for vehicle projects, I should probably go with 10 foot ceilings rather than 9 foot. Once we are doing the excavation and pouring concrete, an extra foot isn't going to make a lot of difference in the cost, but it sure is nice to have a tall ceiling when working with engine hoists, lifting car bodies, etc.

Because gasoline fumes are heavier than air, what you would have is basically a large bomb waiting for sufficient fumes to build up. So you'd have to work around that.

And increasing ceiling height greatly affects the difficulty in getting heavy equipment and materials in and out of the excavation. And may increase the depth of back-filled walls and shoring. Stairwells require more floor space.

 

[someguy11]

Luckily I've got a lot of time to think about this before the project starts.

I'm wondering how limiting I'd find a 5' x 10' 5,000 pound lift. I could take a lot of car parts down to the basement with it, but not a whole car. Could even get some car bodies and truck cabs down with that, but not easily.

Where is the 80/20 line here ?

 

[someguy11]

Here is another little thing I haven't figured out yet.

Let say that I install the 5x10 (12?) lift using the fork lift mast. Lets say I have it lowered to the basement floor and I've got the removable stairway installed in the lift hole.

Lets say its -20F outside. Lets say I want to keep the garage basement at 55 or 60F because I'm working down there or there is something I don't want to freeze.

Lets say I want to save some heat and only keep the main floor of the garage at 20F or 35F.

How do I prevent all the heat from going between the two floors ? Without building walls around the lift shaft ? Keep the lift parked at the main floor level and always use it for going up and down ?

With ICF walls and spray foam in the ceiling, its going to take very little energy to heat the basement. It will take a lot more to heat the garage and if its just being used to store vehicles, its better for rust prevention to store them below freezing rather than above freezing.

I wonder if I would find going up and down on the lift all the time to be inconvenient. I wonder if I could make it safe for my wife to use on a regular basis. Until now I was thinking it would just be used occasionally to shuttle equipment between floors.

I don't want to frame out a permanent stairwell because that will make it hard to get equipment on and off the lift platform.

A standard stairway for a 9' ceiling needs an opening in the floor of 11' 6". My opening might be a little less because the concrete will be 8" thick versus a floor joist that is thicker. Say 11 feet. An opening for an 8 foot ceiling is 10 feet.

I could use one of the roll away staircases like the workers at Home Depot use for checking stock on the shelves ? Not good for my wife to use ?

The lift would definitely take up less room if it can be made safe enough for the rest of my family to use. I have the contact of a person who is an expert in this area. I'll call him tomorrow.

Lots to figure out here...

 

[someguy11]

I'm not posting anything right now, but there is a lot going on with this project.

The deadline for our permit application is early to mid July if we are to start excavation in September.

I've made contact with a guy that has put several basements under garages for himself and members of his family. His next one is pretty much what I am planning to do, ie most of the back yard with a passage to the basement of a house.

We are going to proceed with the design and permitting stages, even if we don't actually do the build this fall. That component will then be ready for when we do go ahead with construction. I'm not saying it won't happen this fall, I'm just saying there is a possibility it won't, even if we do all the leg work of getting the permits.

Interestingly, there is a house under construction a few blocks away that has a 20 foot under ground bunker on the back of it. They are covering it with grass. I spoke with the construction crew and learned a lot about water proofing, etc. I get to watch how they are doing things. It should be done before I start mine.

 

[JamieK]

Here's an idea you could incorporate into your build.

 

[someguy11]

Here's an idea you could incorporate into your build.

Where does one get reasonably priced mechanics for something like that ?

 

[someguy11]

Here's an idea you could incorporate into your build.

http://www.hardingsteel.com/carparx_g.shtml

I don't know if I want to give up a bay in the basement so that i can lower a car down there. I haven't seen a 4 post design that would do what I need and the scissor models take up a lot of space in the basement.

I gave it a lot of thought and I think I'm fine working on a project car on the main floor and doing all the sub full car projects in the basement. I had in my mind how nice it would be working in the basement in winter. It would be warm and dry and well lit. But I have since installed a bunch of lighting in my garage and its very comfortable working on the main floor too.

One nice thing about working on the main floor is the friendly neighbor factor, as I found out recently. On nice days you open one of the garage doors and all sorts of friendly neighbors seem to drop in. Its pretty fun, you get to know your neighbors and before long they are lending a hand. That wouldn't happen if I was working in the basement.

 

[someguy11]

There was a HUGE crane working on a new house build down the street. I mean huge ! It had a blinking light on the top of the jib.

It was hoisting material onto the second floor of a house from the back alley. So at least one crane operator in the area can fit a big crane in the back alley and isn't afraid to work in close proximity to the power lines back there.

I didn't get a close look at it as I had to go to a meeting. I'll follow up on the site and get the name of the crane company.

 

[AndyCBR]

I'm subscribing to this thread for no other reason than to see the progress pics.

Nothing is impossible.

But just because you can doesn't mean you should.

One thing is for certain, this project will not fail due to lack of analysis...

 

[MG David]

Rather than a lift you could just have a trap door in the floor with a crane above it to lower and lift things through the hole.

 

[pstnbly]

But just because you can doesn't mean you should.

One thing is for certain, this project will not fail due to lack of analysis...

LOL, analysis paralysis.

 

[bczygan]

Guys sure like to solve problems!

If you pull permits well in advance of actual construction, make sure the duration of the permit is adequate and it can be extended, if you need.

 

[someguy11]

LOL, analysis paralysis.

Sure are a lot of critics and experts on this forum. First they say you don't know what you are doing and then they say there is too much forethought. Proper preparation prevents p*ss poor performance.

 

[Strouty]

Ignore it, you just sink to their level.

 

[someguy11]

The permitting for this project happens in 2 phases.

The first phase is the conceptual development permit. We need that permit because we are adding a lot of structure and floor area in an unconventional manner, ie to a garage via a basement. The city wants to review developments like that. The concept will be posted and my neighbors will have an opportunity to comment. This process takes 8 to 10 weeks. At the end of that process you have the city's consent on the concept of what you are wanting to build.

The second phase is the building permit itself. This is where the technical plans get submitted and approved. In some cases the building permit can be submitted and approved simultaneously with the conceptual permit.

I'm expecting the conceptual permit to be a slam dunk because when all is said and done nothing about the property changes. There is no lasting impact on my neighbors.

I'm expecting the design permit to be a slam dunk as well because we aren't breaking any design rules, generally or city specific.

We are shooting to submit the conceptual application by June 15th. We will submit the building permit application once we receive the initial feedback on the concept, probably early August. If things go well, we should have a building permit by September 1st.

The conceptual permit is generally good for a long time. 3 years without a question. Should things not progress like I think they will, we can use it in subsequent years.

 

[ez-duzit]

...I'll make a go/no go decision for the fall of 2015 in early July. Excavation would start in September...I'd probably tie in the basement during the winter of 2015/2016, finish the landscaping in the spring of 2016 and finish the bunker interior in the winter of 2016/2017...

... we should have a building permit by September 1st...

You and your $20/hr helper are not going to do that job this year, starting after September 1st.

 

[someguy11]

You and your $20/hr helper are not going to do that job this year, starting after September 1st.

Thank you for your opinion on that.

 

[someguy11]

Just about to get one of these babies.
http://www.engineersupply.com/Pacific-Laser-Systems-PLS-HLE-1000-Rotary-Laser-Kit-PLS-60570.aspx

I need to get a bunch of elevations for the drainage drawings and surveyors want a fortune. Besides, we need to level and slope things throughout this project.

This particular model is nice because it does slopes in 2 directions, it has upper and lower plumb dots, it comes with a 16 foot grade rod (versus 8 foot), it has rechargeable batteries, it goes out to 1000 feet and it updates faster, 1000 RPM.

You can get a laser level for half this price, but they don't have these features.

I'm hoping to mount the laser receiver somewhere on my skid steer and use it like this guy is.

Would save a lot of time compared to staking things over and over.

 

[xtremek]

You and your $20/hr helper are not going to do that job this year, starting after September 1st.

Ignore it, you just sink to their level.

I usually like the threads where the guys redo an old collapsing structure. Every time there are at least 3 or 4 guys telling the guy to level it and start again, it's too much work. And pretty much every time, the guy pulls it off, it looks pretty good, and the guy saves a ton of money. So take Strouty's advise and keep trucking. Personally, I can't see how you're going to do it, so I'm subbing to this so I can watch how you do it. It sounds like you know the general direction to go, you just need to get the details down. Good luck

 

[someguy11]

I usually like the threads where the guys redo an old collapsing structure. Every time there are at least 3 or 4 guys telling the guy to level it and start again, it's too much work. And pretty much every time, the guy pulls it off, it looks pretty good, and the guy saves a ton of money. So take Strouty's advise and keep trucking. Personally, I can't see how you're going to do it, so I'm subbing to this so I can watch how you do it. It sounds like you know the general direction to go, you just need to get the details down. Good luck

I'm all for constructive feedback and insight. That is why I started this thread.

"Personally, I can't see how you're going to do it"

Do the project in general or get it done in 3 months ?

It doesn't really matter if I don't get it done in 3 months. If we had the walls up and didn't get the roofs poured, we'd just be out having a garage for the winter and we'd pour the roofs in the spring. It wouldn't be a huge deal.

But we definitely need to get the floor in and the walls backfilled so that the soil doesnt destabilize.

I'm starting in the fall because my wife doesn't want this project to interrupt our summer family time and we don't want to have a huge hole in the backyard for the summer. I'll finish the landscaping in the spring and plant it to grass ASAP. By the end of the summer the back yard will be respectable.

But I'm really hoping to get it closed in so that I can finish it out the garage over winter.

 

[xtremek]

I don't know how you're going to do it, period. But with your attitude, I'm sure you will. And when it's done, you can sit back and have a cold drink of your choice and enjoy having done what a lot of people said couldn't be done.

 

[someguy11]

I don't know how you're going to do it, period. But with your attitude, I'm sure you will. And when it's done, you can sit back and have a cold drink of your choice and enjoy having done what a lot of people said couldn't be done.

I'd like to hear more about what you think won't work. I might be missing something.

FYI, I had a building mover in for a quote last week. He says its very doable. We came up with a plan to lift and block the garage in its current position. The hangup came when I told him I needed his beams for 3 months. Looks like I need to get my own beams and we need to lift it ourselves. None of the movers want to give up their beams for that long.

This project has a ton of detail and complexity to it. I spent a lot of time this week working on "issues". I have a few more on my list and I think we are ready to submit the conceptual permit application. I'll continue to work on planning the project right until we begin construction later in the summer.

 

[Strouty]

I don't think he is saying it won't work, he is just saying he is not sure how it would be done at all. That is why he is interested.

 

[Strouty]

Kind of like when a guy rebuilds an automatic transmission, to me it is magic.

 

[someguy11]

When I was a kid, we dug, formed and poured the foundation and 9 foot deep manure pits for a big hip roofed barn and then moved it on. This project is more difficult because of the space limitations, but otherwise its a lot of the same techniques. Although I have never poured a suspended floor before.

We also poured the footings and foundation for a 50x150 foot machine shed. We'd do the work, but my dad always hired someone knowledgeable to oversee our work. We = me, my dad and a hired man. We'd pour 100 yards of concrete in a summer, in addition to all the other ******** work around the farm.

Truthfully, we usually mixed most of the concrete too, with a 1 yard mixer on a FEL tractor. One guy ran the gravel hopper and put in the cement powder. 1 guy ran the tractor and 2 guys handled the pouring.

One of the sons of my dad's friend who grew up on a farm doing similar stuff just built a 2 story house with ICF walls from the basement to the peak of the roof. He said he did it because he didn't know how to frame ! LOL.

 

[Strouty]

Believe me, the floor is going to be a cakewalk compared to the rest of it.

 

[xtremek]

I don't think he is saying it won't work, he is just saying he is not sure how it would be done at all. That is why he is interested.

Exactly.

 

[someguy11]

The structural engineering is done. The CAD work is done. I'm reviewing everything tonight.

We have requested a pre application meeting with the city to review everything prior to formally submitting the application. I'm hoping that meeting happens early next week.

I'm still waiting to hear on the local skid steer I want to purchase. There is another similar machine for a similar price, but its 700 miles away. I'm hoping to get the local one.

We have a meeting with the landscape designer tonight about the front yard. Ironically I'm running into more problems with getting those plans agreed to (by the city) than the garage project.

I captured a ton of elevations on the weekend to figure out drainage issues. Its so easy seeing the problem when you have a laser level. We'll see if the city agrees to the solution I'm proposing.

This has been a very time consuming project. But I expected that. There are a lot of details. I'm really happy with how its come together thus far.

 

[someguy11]

Thus far my expenditures are

- $1400 retainer for structural engineering and drafting. Total cost will be about $3K with site visits and stamped drawings.
- $860 for the laser level and a few survey odds and ends

The landscape designer costs $75 per hour, but she will probably cut us a package deal. This woman is amazing. She takes our ideas, looks at the property, asks a few questions and starts sketching. A couple hours later you have a complete plan, plant varieties, etc. This time will be a bit more because we need some scale drawings to present to the city.

I'm really happy with the SE because now I own the design and I'm not tied to a contractor or developer. Lots of contractors/developers would do that work for free and then claim they own the job because they did the engineering.

The geotechnical engineer is going to charge about $500 for the soil load bearing test site visit, analysis and report. That will be done during excavation. Soil stability analysis/reporting will be done on an as needed basis.

The conceptual permit application fee is about $500. The building permit is going to be about $1100.

The next step after that is putting all the stuff in the garage into storage, jack hammering out the garage concrete and putting the garage on beams. I'll also remove the stairs and concrete pad from the front yard. I want to have all that done prior to September 1st, so we are ready to move dirt on Sept 1st.

 

[bczygan]

Can't wait to see more photos of things demo'd and moved etc.

 

[someguy11]

Can't wait to see more photos of things demo'd and moved etc.

I like the action stuff too, but the reality is that a lot of "non action" work needs to get done on this sort of project before anything like that happens.

I can't wait to start digging and pouring concrete.

 

[xtremek]

This is the best thing since the concrete underground thread. I'm loving even the little details, so keep them coming when you can.

 

[someguy11]

This is the best thing since the concrete underground thread. I'm loving even the little details, so keep them coming when you can.

I forgot. I spent $125 to copy and scan the plans for my existing house. Ouch !

 

[little d]

Someguy,
my Dad had a saying, "Don't get in my way telling me I can't do something, while I'm doing it." Glad to see there are still those out there with the same mind set, please keep posting,
D

 

[someguy11]

Thanks for the encouragement. I really appreciate it.

We had a great meeting with the landscape designer last night. She is so good to work with.

She probably does 50 designs a year. She knows every plant and tree on earth and how to take care of them. First she walks our property and looks at all the trees and plants and comments on how they doing, how to improve their health, etc. Then we went to various areas and discussed how we could improve the landscaping, new ideas, concerns, etc. Then we sat down inside and she showed us various layout ideas, rock samples, etc.

She is doing full drawings for the front and back yards. She proposed way more than I envisioned and her ideas were great. She is very innovative with space. She is up on every landscaping material known to man and yet she is very practical.

Her fee ? $800, for everything, including full drawings and she is associated with several nurseries and quarries and we get pretty much wholesale pricing on what we buy.

I was so excited I couldn't sleep last night.

By far the best money we spend on our projects is on the designers. Its one thing to be able to build something, it another to be able to design something to be built. As a homeowner and DIYer, I pay attention to various landscaping and design trends, but its not the same as being a designer and doing many, many designs a year and watching them be built and used.

 

[Diesel Dan]

The geotechnical engineer is going to charge about $500 for the soil load bearing test site visit, analysis and report. That will be done during excavation. Soil stability analysis/reporting will be done on an as needed basis.

$500?
That's cheap!
It can cost us that much just to have a soil scientist punch a few holes and read the soil for septic installs.

 

[someguy11]

$500?
That's cheap!
It can cost us that much just to have a soil scientist punch a few holes and read the soil for septic installs.

The reason its cheap is because we are doing it at the time of excavation. The geotech just hops into the hole, takes a few samples and runs them in his lab.

There is a whole story about how we got to that point. Its one of the things that I mean when I say "there is a lot going on behind the scenes."

Long, long story short, the city stated that a geotechnical analysis needed to be done. The geotech said that the only geotechnical analysis that would make sense for the foundation was a soil load bearing test done at the footings level, which is 9 feet down.

Then he said we'd have to do a large number of samples because the area is known to have had river flows. Then he said the drill truck was a full tandem at $300/hr, 4 hours of drilling (minimum), 2 hours of transport, we are at $2500. Then I told him about site being small and where he wanted to drill was underneath my existing garage. Hmmm...

He asked why we needed to drill now. I said the city required it. He said to tell the city that he said that we'll do load bearing test during excavation. He gave the SE a number to work with in the mean time. The foundation got designed to his number, we'll modify the design before we pour any concrete if the soil conditions require it.

My backup plan to the drill truck expense was to put an auger on a skid steer and get the samples that way.

The geotech will perform site visits during excavation to monitor slope stability and excavation safety issues.

 

[someguy11]

Another little behind the scenes episode was when the city declared the planter along the street illegal and was about to order me to remove it. Which would have been great because removing the planter would have meant removing the trees, which would have mean the garage could have been moved off the lot. The mover wanted only an extra $1500 to move it off the lot versus just lifting it.

However, when I showed the city that the tree roots were in the illegal planter, they hesitated. And then they found the improperly filed permit that was used for the planter (and the illegal fence) in the first place. So all was well again.

But for a week the whole plan was in limbo while we straightened things out with the city. When I say the whole plan, it even involved whether I would buy a skid steer because if the planter was removed and the trees were gone and we moved the garage, we could use a decent sized excavator instead of the skid steer.

But then there is the issue of the slope and the retaining wall we want to build in the front yard !

Did I mention we need to move the gas line ? Actually, that isn't a problem, but we haven't figured out how to supply the house with gas while we are doing the project. And we have the same problem with the electrical feed - its right where we are excavating.

All in all, I'm probably spending 20 hours a week right now on design and planning issues. Luckily, thus far everything has had a reasonable and economical solution, but the path to that solution certainly isn't linear.

 

[fountain]

This is going to be awesome to watch. More power to you someguy11!