VISE REPAIR 101 all vise repairs, lubricants, sources for parts and the tricks to fix

[DRRummel]

Thanks. I guess I will untank my parts this weekend.

 

[Shiftless]

All :
Anybody want to weigh in on what my next step should be with a locked up Wilton bullet vise?
I got a good deal $60 on a Chicago era 9400. Looked like not much use. Original jaw inserts in mint condition. No saw or grinder marks or weld splatter. No cracks or repairs. Some rust and peeling paint. But frozen. I knew this before cash changed hands.
I got the swivel base off and the main screw out and the back cap removed. It has been standing on its back end with periodic squirts of PB Blaster down the slider. The jaws are locked in place with about 5/8 inch gap. I have "tapped" it a few times a day to try to close the jaws. 3 pound BFH. I cut a short bolt and put a nut on it to make a spreader between the jaws to try to force them open. No movement at all. Others online have had success so I'm optimistic about a successful result and I'm in no hurry.

So...soak the whole thing in a bucket of diesel fuel for a couple of months?
Soak in a bucket of 50-50 ATF and acetone?
(How do you get rid of the used chemicals?)
Go directly to electrolysis?
What do you think?

 

[CwazyWabbit]

I'd do electrolysis for a few days first, try and get electrodes all around the vise, the process isn't as line of sight as people make out. Once out of the tank give it a real good pressure wash, then if it still doesn't move back in the tank for a few more days. Once the vice looks really clean if still no movement then chuck it in diesel.

 

[drivesitfar]

Shift: i was able to pull this Prentiss 19 apart after sitting in 3 gallons of vinegar for about 10 days. if you decide to do that you need to make sure to rinse all the vinegar off and also dry it. since it's summer sitting out in the sun all day should hopefully do the trick or you could stick it in the oven.

I've heard the diesel dunk and the 50/50 with Atf works too, but i haven't tried them. if you know how to do electrolysis that might work too.

good luck

 

[vintage nut]

Atf acetone is real good stuff. I've been using it a lot lately. I'd mix up a little bottle of that, and every morning and evening, give it a light beating with a wooden mallet or lead hammer, then squirt some penetrant on. A bucket of atf and acetone won't work as it separates really quickly, and you have to shake up the bottle before every use.

you can never have too many tools

 

[Shiftless]

Thanks for all of your quick replies. When I get back from vacation, I will dive into this project and let you guys know what happens. If it takes a couple of months, that's OK. Who know how many YEARS it's been sitting around siezed up? Patience is a virtue, right? Somebody in the past evidently had tried to use the handle to crank it out and break it free. Predictably, the 3 little screws holding the collar broke off and the collar got lost. I was able to extract the remainder of the screws and clean up the threaded holes with a tap.
It will be a glorious day when it comes apart and I have a date code photo to post for the 200+ list. Being a 1948 baby myself, there's a chance that the vise might be older than I am.

CW: That sounds like a logical approach. I've been toying with the idea of building an electrolysis rig ever since I learned of the technique. As a retired chemistry teacher, I'm quite comfortable with the concept. Think about electroplating!

Drives: Your Prentiss was WAY rustier than my bullet, but I'm sure that Wilton's precision fit (what is it, a few thousandths) is working against me here. How much (little) rust does it take to seize up that small a gap? The vinegar approach sounds logical. Only risk there for me is if it remains stuck after the soak, the parts can't be thoroughly rinsed.

Vintage: Thanks a lot for the feedback regarding ATF and acetone. I certainly don't want to buy all of those ingredients, fill the bucket, and watch it separate!
I'll go with the spray bottle idea. I assume the magic mixture doesn't slowly disintegrate a plastic spray bottle, or does it? BTW, is Kroil a lot better than PB Blaster which is what I've been using for years, or do you find the ATF/acetone better than either one. It would certainly be less expensive!

 

[drivesitfar]

Shift: you might be right about the vinegar getting inside the Wilton and if it doesn't open up conceivably it could start eating cast. i'd probably still do the vinegar just because it's easy for me and if for some reason it didn't open up the Wilton i'd dump the vise in a bucket of diesel.

you are right that Wilton has pretty tight fitting vises, but Prentiss vise can rub the paint off if you paint the slide so not a lot of room on them either.

one thing for certain their isn't a lot of rust in that tight space so if you can get something inside there it will probably do the job. Kroil is the best I've used for penetrant and rust removal for nuts and bolts, but i haven't tried the ATF mix yet. I see the pros on TV and videos using their torches. i'm guessing a little heat with a mapp gas plumping torch might even do the job.

good luck and what part of the world did you decide to go and relax for few days?

 

[Outlawmws]

SNI
Vintage: Thanks a lot for the feedback regarding ATF and acetone. I certainly don't want to buy all of those ingredients, fill the bucket, and watch it separate!
I'll go with the spray bottle idea. I assume the magic mixture doesn't slowly disintegrate a plastic spray bottle, or does it? BTW, is Kroil a lot better than PB Blaster which is what I've been using for years, or do you find the ATF/acetone better than either one. It would certainly be less expensive!

Pay attention to what plastics Acetone will eat. That is the most volatile component.

 

[Shiftless]

Pay attention to what plastics Acetone will eat. That is the most volatile component.

Thanks for reminding me Outlaw. I have a metal oil can with the trigger on the side and a long flexible metal nozzle. That tool sounds a lot safer than a thin plastic bottle full of flammable solvent!

 

[jakemac]

I keep most of my Acetone in it's original can, and a small amount in a plastic glue bottle from HF. I check the bottle often to make sure it's still in one piece.

 

[vintage nut]

A low density polyethylene bottom (ldpe) will be unaffected by acetone. I have one of the little clear bottles you get in camping stores for straight acetone, and use it for cleaning. Won't touch the bottle. I use one of the plastic push bottom oil cans for the atf mix. Doesn't effect it.
I haven’t used kroil, but my favorite penetrant out of a can is seafoam deep creep. Seems better than pb blaster to me. Crc freeze off can be really useful, but it's expensive and really for special jobs

you can never have too many tools

 

[JZiggy]

Shiftless,

Give Kroil a try. I've used it for a few years now and it really goes a great job.

http://www.kanolabs.com/penLub.html

Comparison:

PB blaster MSDS: http://blastercorp.com/images/PB-Pe...English-Mexico-OSHA-HazCom2012-2014-05-26.pdf

- Oil and naphtha

Kroil MSDS: http://www.kanolabs.com/MSDS2015/Kroil(liquid) SDS 2015.pdf

- Oil, ketones, aliphatic alcohol, and "proprietary ingredients" (ie, the really evil stuff)

I actually need to buy some more Kroil soon, so if you want to go in on an order with me just say the word.

I know lots of folks have good luck with ATF+acetone. But it seems to me that the acetone will just gas-off after a short while. A true penetrant can stay there and soak.

Take all this with a few grains of salt, I ain't no chemist.

 

[va.grouseman]

Continued from page #22.


And some without page.

SABER
Ace Hardware
Steel Craft---Japan
Chicago tool
Franklin
Majestic
Production Devises
Richard Wilcox
Tesco
Twistite
US Lock & Hardware
Wizard
Lehigh
Howe & Fory Co.---Littco
Universal
Van Products
Milwaukee Hay tool Co.
Mohn Machine Co.
Rapid
Scout
G. L.---Japan
AC Brand-----Japan
United-----China
Mighty-----ChinaP
Bonny----Garage vise

I will move these to the upper list as I find them in the Journal.

------------------------

Post vises

Arthur J. Oleary & Son
Peter Write
Fisher Norris---Eagle--Double-screw, post vise---------------Page 1816
Indian Chief-----------------------------------------------------Page 18, 19
Keenkutter
Columbian
Iron City---------------------------------------------------------Page 495
D.C. Cummings-------------------------------------------------Page 495
Wagon Tongue Blacksmith Vise--------------------------------Page 1060
Petinghause
????????
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Drill Press and Milling vises


Kurt D-80-------------------------------------------------------Page 1, 400
Kurt D-60-------------------------------------------------------Page 16
L.W. Chuck-----------------------------------------------------Page 20
Enco------------------------------------------------------------Page 77
Cardinal 3B Speed Vise----------------------------------------Page 80
Atlas Mall Vise--------------------------------------------------Page 81
Atlas Shaper----------------------------------------------------Page 81
Brown & Sharp-------------------------------------------------Page 81
Dayton----------------------------------------------------------Page 160
Columbian------------------------------------------------------Page 218
Lion-------------------------------------------------------------Page 226
ACVOKE----by Accles & Shelvokel Tool----England----------Page 373
Gibralter--------------------------------------------------------Page 333
Palmgren-------------------------------------------------------Page 440, 444
Parkinson's Perfect Vise---------------------------------------Page 448
Bridgeport------------------------------------------------------Page 455
HYLO Speed Vise-----------------------------------------------Page 455
Wilton-----------------------------------------------------------Page 536
GROZ-----------------------------------------------------------Page 569
M. H. Universal-------------------------------------------------Page 643
Simplex---------------------------------------------------------Page 751
Atlas Cross Slide-----------------------------------------------Page 909
Yankee----------------------------------------------------------Page 954
TECO------------------------------------------------------------Page 954
Palmgren
------------------------------------------------------------------------



Home Made Vises


Metal Fabricated------------------------------------------------Page 110
1980 lb. Vise----1230 lb. Anvil---------------------------------Page 164
Customized Morgan---------------------------------------------Page 421
Hydraulic, 608 Columbian---------------------------------------Page 117, 118, 119
Bullet Vise--------------------------------------------------------Page 523
Art-Deco Vise----------------------------------------------------Page 593
Railroad Track Anvil Vise----------------------------------------Page 564
Vise Made of Pipe------------------------------------------------Page 599, 601
Smallest Machinist Vise------------------------------------------Page 646, 741
372 lb. Plate Steel Vise------------------------------------------Page 673
Another Plate Steel Vise-----------------------------------------Page 700

Continued on Page No. 200

 

[Shiftless]

Shiftless,

Give Kroil a try. I've used it for a few years now and it really goes a great job.

http://www.kanolabs.com/penLub.html

Comparison:

PB blaster MSDS: http://blastercorp.com/images/PB-Pe...English-Mexico-OSHA-HazCom2012-2014-05-26.pdf

- Oil and naphtha

Kroil MSDS: http://www.kanolabs.com/MSDS2015/Kroil(liquid) SDS 2015.pdf

- Oil, ketones, aliphatic alcohol, and "proprietary ingredients" (ie, the really evil stuff)

I actually need to buy some more Kroil soon, so if you want to go in on an order with me just say the word.

I know lots of folks have good luck with ATF+acetone. But it seems to me that the acetone will just gas-off after a short while. A true penetrant can stay there and soak.

Take all this with a few grains of salt, I ain't no chemist.

Ziggy : Can you get a killer deal on large quantities? Unless I decide to fill a bucket with the stuff $$$ and soak a vise, I can't imagine buying more than one or two big aerosol cans. Do you buy larger cans?
Here is an offer from the manufacturer for 2 cans shipped to your door. (Looks to be 12 oz. cans)

 

[Fretters]

I know lots of folks have good luck with ATF+acetone. But it seems to me that the acetone will just gas-off after a short while. A true penetrant can stay there and soak.

Most penetrating sprays tend to use a solvent, so it's likely little different. The main thing is thinning it initially so that it can wick/creep into all areas. Doesn't matter too much if the solvent evaporates then. Personally though, acetone is not something I'd use. White, (mineral), spirit or preferably gum turpentine would be my preferences as the solvent. I'm not a fan of acetone at all, and the others likely wouldn't separate either, as acetone does. I might actually test that separation theory in the near future.

 

[jakemac]

Decals

Just for SnG's, I'll post two images I've made to recreate the decals on some vises I haven't gotten around to restoring yet.

The first is for a Columbian 804 steel plate vise (post here).
It should be printed on white decal paper and trimmed with a white border.

The second is for a Luther 93 clamp vise (post here)
It should be printed on gold paper and trimmed tight to the black border.

The images have been converted to 72ppi by GJ from their original 300ppi and may need to be resized for your use.

 

[JZiggy]

Not sure if this has been posted before, but I know some folks like to use anti-seize to lubricate the power screw on vises.

I have found that Blue Moly works really well:

http://www.bostik-us.com/sites/default/files/NSBlueMoly.pdf

Perfect for sliding, high-pressure applications. It is basically an anti-seize though so it makes a mess if you're not careful with it.

 

[jakemac]

I don't use anti-seize on anything that is supposed to move. I don't like the thought of the grit acting like an abrasive. I only use it on fixed bolts or screws that I might need to remove later.

 

[Outlawmws]

Jake, I don't think Anti-seize has grit in it. it's a barrier to dissimilar metal corrosion. That of course does not necessarily make it a lube however...

 

[JZiggy]

Different kinds of lube. Oil film is one kind. Solid lubricant (graphite, moly, etc) is another. They all have different applications. Solid lubricants in a grease carrier (what we know as anti seize) is great for slow, sliding friction like screws and thrust washers.

 

[Shiftless]

I don't use anti-seize on anything that is supposed to move. I don't like the thought of the grit acting like an abrasive. I only use it on fixed bolts or screws that I might need to remove later.

It's logical to avoid adding grit to the main screw. No more conventional anti seize for me!

 

[Carla]

It's logical to avoid adding grit to the main screw. No more conventional anti seize for me!

The simplest and most practical lubricant for a vise screw is 'ultra-fine' graphite, as sold for lock work, and DTE or machine spindle oil (not automotive motor oil), mixed into a thick 'slurry'. The viscosity of the 'slurry' is important....not a paste, but not too 'runny', either.

There is still 'no free lunch'.....to preserve the screw and nut in a vise, you really must clean and relubricate it every few months time, or more often, if it sees a lot of use. Old vises are found 'worn out' as metal and abrasive particles from the work done mix with the oil on the working parts, to form an 'abrasive slurry', aka 'valve grinding paste'.

(if you could find a small tin of the old-style 'white lead', which is not easy to find, these days, make a mixture of 2 parts graphite and 1 part white lead, stir well to mix, then add the oil, stirring thoroly. This mixture is an old machine shop standard, known, years ago, as 'seagull dung'.....or some similar terminology)

cheers

Carla

 

[JZiggy]

Hold the phone guys... anti-seize is not full of "grit" nor is it abrasive. It simply is a grease suspension of fine particle of solid lubricant. These particles squish and slide between metal interface surfaces, and can hang out there longer than oil - which lets them be a better lube in some cases.

You just don't want solid lubricants in tight-tolerance rolling elements like bearings. Those are designed only to work with oil and grease. But for sliding elements solid lubes work great.

From Bostik Never-Seez product description: "Especially effective under extreme pressures involving heavy loads and slow speed resulting in boundary lubrication conditions" [boundary lubrication means metal sliding against metal]

If you had grease full of steel, iron, silicon carbide, dirt, etc. then yes, it would be a *polishing compound* or a grinding compound, and not an anti-seize lubricant.

Sorry for preaching. I'll leave it alone. Reference bobistheoilguy.com

 

[Fretters]

Hold the phone guys... anti-seize is not full of "grit" nor is it abrasive. It simply is a grease suspension of fine particle of solid lubricant. These particles squish and slide between metal interface surfaces, and can hang out there longer than oil - which lets them be a better lube in some cases.

To be pedantic, it's not actually lubricant particles. Take Coppa-Slip, for example. Copper is not a lubricant in itself. It is there however for two reasons.

1) It's softer than most metals, hence will wear away before causing damage to the mating/sliding surfaces it is being used upon. I suppose that could technically be classed as a lubricant, depending on ones take on things.

2) The galvanic process. The copper, (and its zinc counterpart), are metals which are used for good reason. Those are both sacrificial metals, if I recall correctly. (A search for galvanic corrosion on Google will bring up the table listing reactivity).

The whole grit in anti-seize paste thing is just a bit of a misnomer which has become widespread. It's like the "line of sight" thing with electrolysis. They both have some tenuous relation to reality, but they've been taken out of proper context over time.

The problem with any grease based product is a simple one. Grease has the edge over straight oil for longevity simply due to the fact that it's holding oil in suspension in a semi-solid. That is also its downfall too, however, as it will also hold onto anything else which touches it, hence why grease eventually becomes akin to a lapping compound when used in locations which aren't completely enclosed to contaminants. Grease will also lose its oil over time too, hence becoming more of a hindrance than a help at some point in time, if it isn't either refreshed or replaced.

 

[drivesitfar]

VA: should i be editing our vise company thread with your new list you posted or at least making a note in post #2 with your new post? nice work as always and I (we) all thank you for your hard work. Tell me do you ever get tired of looking at pictures of vises, catalog pages or just reading about vises (vices)? well done.

Carla: i added your 'seagull dung' mixture to the lubrication post that is the #5 post of this thread. thanks for sharing and did you really pull apart and clean your vises every couple months?

ALL: so if all of you talking about the anti seize grease and other types would list your favorite grease or several if you use a few i'll add any new ones to the list on post #5 because i (we) get asked all the time how to lubricate a vise and which grease or oils to use. not all of us are able to make Seagull dung which is the best description. i bet old bacon grease might even be better than nothing, but not my first choice.

anybody else have a favorite grease? i just bought maybe the last few tubes of TriFlow's red grease and after i use it i'll post up some pictures of the ingredients. i love TriFlow's other products and not sure why they are discontinuing their red grease inventory.

 

[Fretters]

I merely use a couple of old greases I have here. Both Shell, one is Alvania, but can't remember what the other is offhand. I seem to think it's Retinax, but I'll check. When it comes to grease for vice use, anything will work fine. The loading placed on any of the surfaces isn't even coming remotely close to stressing any grease. The grease drying out and retaining **** over time is of far more concern than grease type, and that leads back to Carla's point of stripping and refreshing the lubricant periodically.

 

[DRRummel]

I don't have a machine shop, but I do have basic hand tool and drills. My drill press does not have a reverse, but my hand drills do. I have reverse drill bits and easy outs.

To drill out the set screw in the collar, I think you want to drill in the middle of the set screw. Since half the set screw top broke off I can't drill the center. I tried to break off the other side of the set screw with a cold chisel, but that was just buggering up the collar. Suggestions?

 

[Fretters]

Centre punching it heavily may give you enough for a small drill bit to bite and stay centred, else go in at an angle with the drill bit until you've weakened the remaining part of the slotted section enough to shear it off.

 

[CwazyWabbit]

Perhaps grind it flat with a dremel if you have one

 

[DRRummel]

CwazyWabbit & Fretters:
Both good suggestions. I will start with the dremel. I have a dremel, but cheap tips. It is a good time to buy some quality tips. My son is suggesting a carbide tip. I don't know if they come in dremel sizes.

 

[Outlawmws]

Mostly these days I use Mobil 1 synthetic grease, but it depends on application also. M1 like the "wet" greases is a grit magnet. Beeswax, spray lithium grease, graphite in its various forms, gun grease.... depends on the app...

The screw on an machinists vise you can get away with almost anything generally. For the slide you want something dry. There used to be a spray graphite (Goes on wet, the the carrier dries...) I was fond of for some apps, and if someone is still making such a critter, that would be good on the outer slide.

 

[LG63]

There used to be a spray graphite (Goes on wet, the the carrier dries...) I was fond of for some apps, and if someone is still making such a critter, that would be good on the outer slide.

Dow Corning makes a moly based spray-on product but it was very expensive years ago, I'm sure it hasn't got any cheaper. I use Saf-T-Eze Dry Moly for these type sliding applications.

 

[Fretters]

There used to be a spray graphite (Goes on wet, the the carrier dries...) I was fond of for some apps, and if someone is still making such a critter, that would be good on the outer slide.

I think that stuff is still readily available. I have some stuff here which is just called dry lubricant, and I think that one's graphite based. An aerosol which stinks to high heaven when applied, but just leaves a black film on evaporation.

 

[jreb10]

The screw on an machinists vise you can get away with almost anything generally. For the slide you want something dry. There used to be a spray graphite (Goes on wet, the the carrier dries...) I was fond of for some apps, and if someone is still making such a critter, that would be good on the outer slide.

I have an aerosol product for car door locks called "Lock-Ease" that advertises itself as having a special carrier that evaporates, "leaving a graphited long-wearing film". It even comes with the thin tube for snaking into car door locks.

I am sure other producers make similar products. I'll have to put some on a flat piece of metal and see what it leaves behind.

 

[Shiftless]

Good to hear from you Carla

Regarding slippery lubricants:
Maybe 25 years ago, my son was in the cub scouts and wanted to compete in the Pinewood Derby. Unlike many other dads, I tried to stay out of the design and construction but I did jump in for the modifications of the wheels and axle pins. I helped my son angle trim the plastic wheels so they would ride on a very narrow center portion. On top of this modification, we micro polished the little nails that the wheels turned on and used some solvent carried molybdenum disulfide spray lubricant on the axles.
That was the slipperiest stuff anybody was using at the time. A winning car!

What does this have to do with vise screws? Probably nothing. That molybdenum disulfide spray was super slippery but when you touched it, black residue got on everything. I wouldn't want it on any of my exposed vise slides. A Wilton bullet might be an exception since its slide is not exposed.

 

[Shiftless]

More on Molybdenum Disulfide :

from Google...

Molybdenum Disulfide Coatings (MoS2 coatings) , also known as Moly Coatings are commonly used in applications where load carrying capacity, operating temperature and coefficient of friction are primary concerns. This coating provides effective lubrication in a wide range of loads, in many cases exceeding 250,000 psi. Moly coatings lubricate sacrificially by transferring lubricant between the two mating surfaces, which helps to reduce wear and coefficient of friction. Molybdenum Disulfide (MoS2) coatings are a dry film lubricant.

Does anybody know if pressures on a main vise screw exceed 250,000 psi?
That sounds extreme to me.

 

[JZiggy]

I could try to do some math for you, Shiftless, but at least you'd know IF you DID reach 250ksi you'd have good lubrication behind it

 

[Outlawmws]

More on Molybdenum Disulfide :
SNIP

Does anybody know if pressures on a main vise screw exceed 250,000 psi?
That sounds extreme to me.

Someone made a piston and gauge setup that measured the compression force that vise jaws induced. from that you could calculate and get close.

for the threads, the issue is muddied by number of threads engaged, how much that particular thread has per thread revolution, the thread design, (acme, square, screw threads...) etc. etc...

Bottom line is moly is very good, but you really need to review moly vs. other lubes, and then pick performance vs. mess vs. its natural ability to collect ****...

 

[JZiggy]

Yes, I made one. My 6" Paramo will generate 9000 lb of clamping force. It has a 1" diameter screw, so you could get some estimates starting from there.

 

[bagged89s10]

VISE REPAIR 101 all vise repairs, lubricants, sources for parts and the trick...

Here is my first attempt at using simple green to strip paint off a vise. Actually off anything.

You just need a few gallons of simple green and a container. I used a little under 2 gallons this time. I could have used more but for $10 a gallon, I will just flip the parts around. My understanding is that you can filter the simple green through coffee filters or similar and reuse it just like evapo-rust.

Parker no. 33 disassembled and in the container


Poured about 2 gallons of simple green in the container.


Covered the container and letting it soak


The paint is bubbling after only soaking for a little less than 2 hours.


It pretty much falls right off


The paint is coming off easily. I will let it soak overnight and see what happens.