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Replacin two 15 amp breakers with 20 amp breakers.

mickeyrory

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Jun 2, 2015
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I have two 15 amp breakers in my main panel that don't have any wires attached. I have run 12 gauge wire for some outlets and also a run for a GFI in a new bath. As I've learned from a previous thread these 15 amp breakers are on different phases, so I'm wondering if it is a simple matter of replacing them with 20 amp breakers for the new wiring. Are there any other considerations I should be aware of?
 
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wyliesdiesels

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I have two 15 amp breakers in my main panel that don't have any wires attached. I have run 12 gauge wire for some outlets and also a run for a GFI in a new bath. As I've learned from a previous thread these 15 amp breakers are on different phases, so I'm wondering if it is a simple matter of replacing them with 20 amp breakers for the new wiring. Are there any other considerations I should be aware of?

What kind of wire did u run? 12/3? Did u run a MWBC? If not, then the 2 breakers being on different phases is not applicable...
 

Speedy Petey

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I ran 12/2 wire for both the gfi and the run of outlets.
Then yes, you would use the spare spaces where the 15's are now and install your 20's. It's not really that you are "replacing" 15's with 20's, you're just using the available space.
 
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mickeyrory

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You are correct Speedy Petey; I just want to use the spaces when I remove the 15 amp breakers. Just to clarify, one breaker is for the 12/2 wiring for the outlets and the other breaker is for the 12/2 wire for the gfi. Thanks to all for responding.
 

alfredeneuman

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New code(2011 and up) is you have to use a double pole breaker if you run a mwbc, but since he didn't two single pole breakers are fine

You don't have to have a double pole (although it's not prohibited) for a multiwire circuit. The same is true with a split-wired receptacle.


NEC 2011

210.4 Multiwire Branch Circuits

(B) Disconnecting Means.
Each multiwire branch circuit shall be provided with a means that will simultaneously disconnect all ungrounded conductors at the point where the branch circuit originates.


240.15 Ungrounded Conductors
(1) Multiwire Branch Circuit. Individual single-pole circuit breakers, with identified handle ties, shall be permitted as the protection for each ungrounded conductor of multiwire branch circuits that serve only single-phase line-to-neutral loads.
 

Zeke

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You don't have to have a double pole (although it's not prohibited) for a multiwire circuit. The same is true with a split-wired receptacle.


NEC 2011

210.4 Multiwire Branch Circuits

(B) Disconnecting Means.
Each multiwire branch circuit shall be provided with a means that will simultaneously disconnect all ungrounded conductors at the point where the branch circuit originates.


240.15 Ungrounded Conductors
(1) Multiwire Branch Circuit. Individual single-pole circuit breakers, with identified handle ties, shall be permitted as the protection for each ungrounded conductor of multiwire branch circuits that serve only single-phase line-to-neutral loads.

By double pole I think Mustang was referring to a breaker that is tied, which most are if they occupy both busses. Realizing that there are double breakers that are not tied as in the slim ones that can serve 2 circuits off one leg The point here is to inform the OP on how to proceed and what to look for. Sounds like he has run 2 new circuits and simply needs 2 new breakers rated for the panel nad wire size he has. Doesn't sound to me like a MWBC so the whole discussion on tied breakers is moot.
 

alfredeneuman

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I didn't bring up the subject.
I was just clarifying some obviously wrong information.

A double pole breaker is completely different than 2 single pole breakers with handle ties, so he was mistaken in the need for a double pole.

As you said, it doesn't make any difference at all in this instance.
 

Mustang51js

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All I know is if I ran a 12/3 feed and used two single breakers, I would fail inspection every time,and I would rather use a 2 pole breaker than try and rig a tie between 2 single pole breakers
 

Speedy Petey

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All I know is if I ran a 12/3 feed and used two single breakers, I would fail inspection every time,and I would rather use a 2 pole breaker than try and rig a tie between 2 single pole breakers
This!

The information was not "obviously wrong". It's pretty silly to suggest that. Maybe it's not 100% accurate, but IMO that's OK. It is simply easier to suggest to a DIYer to use a DP breaker.

A) Finding a handle tie can be tricky, especially for odd or older breakers.
B) Handle ties are not at all fool proof; sometimes they fall off easily.
C) Double pole breakers are typically readily available in pretty much every incarnation, and pretty much are foolproof.
 
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Mustang51js

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This!

The information was not "obviously wrong". It's pretty silly to suggest that. Maybe it's not 100% accurate, but IMO that's OK. It is simply easier to suggest to a DIYer to use a DP breaker.

A) Finding a handle tie can be tricky, especially for odd or older breakers.
B) Handle ties are not at all fool proof; sometimes they fall off easily.
C) Double pole breakers are typically readily available in pretty much every incarnation, and pretty much are foolproof.

Thank you, some guys on here always have to try and prove me wrong. I try to make it less confusing and simpler for people to understand,because a lot of times it's to difficult to explain everything. It may not always be the best info but it's always safe info.
 

zmaxmotorsports

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You don't have to have a double pole (although it's not prohibited) for a multiwire circuit. The same is true with a split-wired receptacle.


NEC 2011

210.4 Multiwire Branch Circuits

(B) Disconnecting Means.
Each multiwire branch circuit shall be provided with a means that will simultaneously disconnect all ungrounded conductors at the point where the branch circuit originates.


240.15 Ungrounded Conductors
(1) Multiwire Branch Circuit. Individual single-pole circuit breakers, with identified handle ties, shall be permitted as the protection for each ungrounded conductor of multiwire branch circuits that serve only single-phase line-to-neutral loads.

Id say its a lot easier to just buy a 2p breaker at the box store for the average person than to figure out how to tie the handles together.
 

Norcal

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Id say its a lot easier to just buy a 2p breaker at the box store for the average person than to figure out how to tie the handles together.

Big box stores can be real stingy w/ accessories for panels & circuit breakers they sell, as Speedy said, handle ties can fail to do their job, a 2 pole makes it easy, the KISS principle applies.

Keep
It
Simple
Sir

Yes, I know the other version. :D
 

alfredeneuman

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The Code is the Code is the Code, and the Code doesn't require a 2 pole breaker.

"New code(2011 and up) is you have to use a double pole breaker" is wrong
If HE hadn't brought up the Code, then there would be no issue.

No matter how impractical it is for Homeowners that buy their supplies from the Big Box Stores, I stand by my statement. :)
 
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Zeke

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Once again, the 2 pole breaker is the simplest way to protect a MWBC which is the center of this debate. And tied handles are required for all MWBC's. I can't tell you which issue of the NEC made that mandatory but I do know that the OP ran NEW wires for circuits so now he has to adhere to whatever version of the code his AHJ is enforcing for any new work. He didn't just replace some outlets, he added some outlets and is using existing space to protect them.

That having been said, why are we not talking about AFCI's (again)?

Alfred, are you Mad? :lol_hitti
 
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Gerald O

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OP didn't say whether the new wiring was in the garage or house. He just said "GFCI to bath." AFCI's are not required in the bath or garage, but the rest of the house, yes.

I hope that makes you feel better. ;):D

Hey, this is "The Garage Journal", so any non-garage related questions are cannon fodder. ;)

Guess what happens when you decide to have the convenience of air-conditioning in your garage building? By some convoluted train of logic it magically becomes 'living space' and falls under all the rules for AFCIs in living spaces (in many jurisdictions). Ask me how I know...:wtf: :headscrat

I'll see if I feel better every time my mandated AFCIs trip from running a sawsall or drill or other brushed motor driven tool on the circuit.

(just wanted to give you your $5 worth of AFCI talk ;))
 
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Zeke

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While we are digressing and having fun, I can't see how the garage becomes a conditioned living space... unless... it has been converted, e.g., close up the vents and seal off the drive-in door. I've seen where enclosed patios became condiitioned living spaces because I used to build them back in the crazy days of the 80's when you could get a tax credit by installing a sun room with a tile or concrete floor that qualified as a solar heating device coupled with a through-the-wall fan. Obviously said room needed windows to let the light in and hold the heat and these had a tinted but transparent plastic roof. They were literally hot houses.

Here's the kicker, the feds only wanted the sun and room while the state said all such rooms had to remain 60% open on 2 walls. Screens OK but no windows glass, plastic or otherwise. So we built the rooms, got signed off and took the windows out of storage and installed them for pics for the federal tax credit.

Kicker #2, now remove the typical slider that went from the house interior to the new 'patio' and it becomes a room. Can't build a 'room' w/o the usual footings, engineering, and now energy calcs, blah, blah.

The tax credit disappeared and so did 95% of the companies building the enclosed patios. So, I know a bit about conditioned live space. I know we're way OT but how in the world did the AHJ decide your garage was a CLS?
 

Gerald O

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Start with a loft area in the garage. Say this is intended as storage/workshop area but you want it air conditioned. Can't air-condition it without meeting new energy code rules for insulation. The slab is not insulated so the loft area has to get closed off from the garage with a door and walls and have its own separately insulated conditioned envelope. Now that it's conditioned and separated by a door it is deemed 'habitable space'. So it now needs drywall for fire separation. It happens to have windows and now otherwise meets the physical characteristics for a habitable space and so it is deemed that it is a living space, even though that was never its intended use. Because they've forced you to make it so nice that someone might actually want to spend a lot of time or even sleep in there. Just because you wanted to heat or cool it. Oh yeah, and it needs smoke and CO detectors.
 
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wyliesdiesels

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Start with a loft area in the garage. Say this is intended as storage/workshop area but you want it air conditioned. Can't air-condition it without meeting new energy code rules for insulation. The slab is not insulated so the loft area has to get closed off from the garage with a door and walls and have its own separately insulated conditioned envelope. Now that it's conditioned and separated by a door it is deemed 'habitable space'. So it now needs drywall for fire separation. It happens to have windows and now otherwise meets the physical characteristics for a habitable space and so it is deemed that it is a living space, even though that was never its intended use. Because they've forced you to make it so nice that someone might actually want to spend a lot of time or even sleep in there. Just because you wanted to heat or cool it. Oh yeah, and it needs smoke and CO detectors.

What a f'ing can of worms... :lol_hitti :monkey_po
 

Mustang51js

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Start with a loft area in the garage. Say this is intended as storage/workshop area but you want it air conditioned. Can't air-condition it without meeting new energy code rules for insulation. The slab is not insulated so the loft area has to get closed off from the garage with a door and walls and have its own separately insulated conditioned envelope. Now that it's conditioned and separated by a door it is deemed 'habitable space'. So it now needs drywall for fire separation. It happens to have windows and now otherwise meets the physical characteristics for a habitable space and so it is deemed that it is a living space, even though that was never its intended use. Because they've forced you to make it so nice that someone might actually want to spend a lot of time or even sleep in there. Just because you wanted to heat or cool it. Oh yeah, and it needs smoke and CO detectors.

Don't forget the arc fault breakers now too
 
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