Techs: How to Get a Better Wheel Balance?

[BQuicksilver]

I'm going to a shop for mounting a new set of wheels/tires Monday and over the years have come to realize over the years that slight vibrations bother me more than the average bear.

So my question for those who do alignments: How do I get the absolutely best possible balance?

- Is there a "best" machine to look for a shop having that would give optimal results?
- Is there a certain mode on these machines that more experienced/better techs use to tweak balance?
- Any other tips/tricks that the average person may benefit from knowing?

 

[NorCalWrenchin]

Just make sure the tire and rim assembly is clean. A balancer technically should be calibrated every day also. If the machine is calibrated and the tech knows what's going on they will be balanced no problem. If you get the tire and rim assembly and there's weights directly across from each other, ie 12 and 6 o'clock, the tech didn't know what he was doing. It's also possible to get real close, using the least amount of weights by doing a 'match mount'.

Also, look for a shop that has a road force balancer, those things are awesome.

 

[Fedwrench]

Hunter GSP9700 Road Force balancer.

http://www.hunter.com/wheel-balancers/road-force-touch

The best machine for performing OEM matching and detecting rim/tire issues.

Many tire chains don't use them because it will fail their crappy tires.

 

[_Stang_]

Road force or nothing

 

[softailgarage]

Make sure that balancer has been calibrated.

 

[royslead]

The average person isn't going to know if the machine was calibrated that day or not, sure you could ask...none of that matters if the person doing it lacks in training or attitude. Equally important to making sure the machine was just calibrated - make sure the person doing the job balances the assembly to zero. I've seen countless guys think that .25 oz is " close enough" - it isn't. I've also seen many (and this shouldn't apply to the op, since they stated they are getting new wheels) guys leave the old weights on and then balance the new tires. Unacceptable.

 

[rice rocket]

Hunter GSP9700 Road Force balancer.

http://www.hunter.com/wheel-balancers/road-force-touch

The best machine for performing OEM matching and detecting rim/tire issues.

Many tire chains don't use them because it will fail their crappy tires.

Still doesn't mean the person operating it knows what the hell they're doing.

I had my truck tires balanced on a GSP9700, and while the software walks you through everything step by step, something was still effed up and they vibrated like crazy.

Took it to Costco, which has normal Coats machines iirc, but they take the time to train all their techs at Michelin's training facility, and they came out perfect.


So yeah, YMMV.

 

[sberry]

I think most new tires are pretty good, seems when I have one done the weights go back on the same place anymore, tire good, wheel not so much.

 

[lilredex]

After reading some stuff on "Balancing Beads", I used some air gun ammo on a couple of rear tires on my old Dodge......seemed to do the fine tuning that I was after.

Anyone had experience with the real thing??

 

[Exit 61]

air soft beads.................... use in all my tires..... no balance issues.

After reading some stuff on "Balancing Beads", I used some air gun ammo on a couple of rear tires on my old Dodge......seemed to do the fine tuning that I was after.

Anyone had experience with the real thing??

 

[Shadowdog500]

I worked in a fleet shop years ago and actually sat through the demo when we got a new digital balancer in the mid '80s. don't ever remember anyone saying anything about a daily calibration. Heck, I don't remember doing regular calibrations on the thing. I just looked at the Coates manual and it says it only needs calibration when it it first set up or moved. It specifically states that it don't need daily calibration.

Big thing is to make sure the person knows what they are doing, and actually gives a **** about balancing your tires. I always tried to nail the things to get them perfect. Then would respin to recheck(like you are supposed to). Some people dont give a **** and go through the motions to do the minimum to get it good enough, and send them down the road.

Chris

 

[volleyball]

The skill of the balancer is by far the biggest issue. even as a teen with a very cheap balancer, I could balance a tire good for 100 mph. And I tested several.

 

[Charlief]

You didn't say what type of car/rims

Lots of new cars today need to be balanced using a pin/plate/collett system. Many new rims (AL CLAD wheels) are lug eccentric not hub. This means you balance them through the lug nut holes and not through the center hole.

Most shops have no idea this needs to be done or they just deny it because of the cost of the system ($2500)

My high end shops all have these in place and never have a come back for balance issues. Nor do they damage any rims. One of my dealerships just replaced 3 rims for a car at a cost of $1900 but they still refuse to buy this kit. I just can't fix stupid.

Charlie
Snap-on Tools

 

[WhiffySpark]

The average person isn't going to know if the machine was calibrated that day or not, sure you could ask...none of that matters if the person doing it lacks in training or attitude. Equally important to making sure the machine was just calibrated - make sure the person doing the job balances the assembly to zero. I've seen countless guys think that .25 oz is " close enough" - it isn't. I've also seen many (and this shouldn't apply to the op, since they stated they are getting new wheels) guys leave the old weights on and then balance the new tires. Unacceptable.

Well to be honest .25 won't make a difference. If you're wheel doesn't require any weights I will put a .25 on so you don't ***** I didn't balance them

 

[WhiffySpark]

You should also only have one weight on each side. 3 weights of vary amounts is no good.

We have a road force machine and it gets used once every 6 months. It's a waste of time if you have the slightest idea of how to balance. I personally only use it for the printout when a tire is out of round

 

[WhiffySpark]

You didn't say what type of car/rims

Lots of new cars today need to be balanced using a pin/plate/collett system. Many new rims (AL CLAD wheels) are lug eccentric not hub. This means you balance them through the lug nut holes and not through the center hole.

Most shops have no idea this needs to be done or they just deny it because of the cost of the system ($2500)

My high end shops all have these in place and never have a come back for balance issues. Nor do they damage any rims. One of my dealerships just replaced 3 rims for a car at a cost of $1900 but they still refuse to buy this kit. I just can't fix stupid.

Charlie
Snap-on Tools

We have it and don't use it.

The only rims you need to be careful with is the chrome clad wheels. Steel wheels with a cover to make them look chrome. If you put the balancing come through the front it can crack the cover

Like said before the person balancing the tire makes a bigger difference than the machine

 

[nafterclifen]

You should also only have one weight on each side. 3 weights of vary amounts is no good.

Not trying to debate this comment but if something is balanced, then it's balanced. If I see weights in more than one location, I do think "laziness" but it doesn't mean that it isn't balanced.

 

[redwrench60]

We have a Hunter road force balancer and we have ran into problems with road force balancing and match mounting many new tires. Even high end brands. Due to being new and stiff and having been stored or transported in funny positions, barrel stacked, flat spotted along with the sensitivity of the machine they can exhibit the traits of actual problems and the machine attempts to correct them only to have them change when the tire breaks in, or it outright rejects a perfectly good tire.

Our equipment trainers and some service info suggest to balance a new tire like normal but to not attempt road force measurements until a tire has 300-500 miles on it to really seat in the beads, warm and break in the tread, soften the sidewall and work out imperfections from storage and handling. Then after that if a tire still has vibration then road force measurements and match mounting can be a magic pill to make a tire be perfectly smooth or actually identify a bad tire that's needs replacement under the tire manufacturers warranty.

 

[rlitman]

Make sure that balancer has been calibrated.

A lot of BS on this thread, and this is one of the biggest misunderstandings of balancers. Calibration has NOTHING to do with the wheel ending up in balance. It only has to do with the weight recommendation the balancer computer spits out. However, when the balancer is showing zeroes, the wheel is in balance, regardless of the calibration.

The skill of the balancer is by far the biggest issue. even as a teen with a very cheap balancer, I could balance a tire good for 100 mph. And I tested several.

The best insight here. This is quite true!

The comment about 1/4 oz not being close enough is more BS.

You didn't say what type of car/rims

Lots of new cars today need to be balanced using a pin/plate/collett system. Many new rims (AL CLAD wheels) are lug eccentric not hub. This means you balance them through the lug nut holes and not through the center hole.

Most shops have no idea this needs to be done or they just deny it because of the cost of the system ($2500)

My high end shops all have these in place and never have a come back for balance issues. Nor do they damage any rims. One of my dealerships just replaced 3 rims for a car at a cost of $1900 but they still refuse to buy this kit. I just can't fix stupid.

Charlie
Snap-on Tools

VERY few OEM rims require this (and NEVER OEM car rims, only some light trucks), so if I were the customer at a dealership, and my factory new rims couldn't be balanced on a cone, I'd be right to be pissed.

If you're running aftermarket rims, then that's possibly a different story.

 

[dodgejunkie]

Jeez, we used a bubble balancer and never had an issue way bac when! The shop owner would never let us stack weights on a single point, but rather what he called isolating it by spacing weights equally on either side of the unbalanced spot! Like 30 degrees off on either side! Don't know if it was the right way, but we never had an issue unless the rim was bent!

Never used a computer balancer but have turned around many times to have them re-balanced after getting new tires!

 

[ex-x-fire]

On a wheel/tire combo that seems to be taking a lot of weight I'll first mark where the weights & valve stem were, then I'll dismount the wheel. I'll check the balance of the wheel. If the wheel needs weight, I'll mark the wheel. Now I take the heavy side of the tire & put 180 of the heavy spot of the wheel. All the marks tell you where the wheel was originally sitting. This might knock off a ounce or two.

 

[WhiffySpark]

Not trying to debate this comment but if something is balanced, then it's balanced. If I see weights in more than one location, I do think "laziness" but it doesn't mean that it isn't balanced.

No. I can tell you from experience. It counter balances. Sometimes it doesn't matter sometimes it does

I won't allow it in my shop. Even if on the check spin it's off by .50 we won't use another weight. Moving the previous weight will fix it

 

[CJM8515]

The road force balancer can do a great job IF the tires your using werent stored funny. If they were all flattened out or something, as someone else said the machine can report problems that really dont exist.

As for balancing with special adapters for lug centric wheels: Toyota is one of the few that use that sort of method to mount the wheels to a car. If you pay attention to a toyota alloy and lug nut, the lug nut actually centers the wheel on the vehicle. You do need a special adapter to balance they right. Its more noticeable on truck tires when they arent balanced right b/c they are much heavier and take a good bit more weight than your typical car passenger tire. Steel wheels dont matter on a toyota.

 

[WhiffySpark]

Nope still don't need them on Toyota trucks. I've hub balanced every single one and Never had an issue.

Doesn't matter if it's hub or lug centric. The hole is still round

 

[nafterclifen]

Nope still don't need them on Toyota trucks. I've hub balanced every single one and Never had an issue.

Doesn't matter if it's hub or lug centric. The hole is still round

There has to be some truth to the lug centric method. I have an 06 Tacoma with factory 265/65/17. I've probably had my wheels/tires balanced by at least a handful of shops, sometimes multiple times. There hasn't been one time that I've been completely satisfied with the ride quality. On some occasions, the truck felt great until I rotated them 5k miles later. I know a lot can happen in 5k miles but once I had them road force balanced, the ride was MINT from day one and still very good after thousands of miles after multiple rotations.

 

[2oolhound]

Jeez, we used a bubble balancer and never had an issue way bac when! The shop owner would never let us stack weights on a single point, but rather what he called isolating it by spacing weights equally on either side of the unbalanced spot! Like 30 degrees off on either side! Don't know if it was the right way, but we never had an issue unless the rim was bent!

This is an interesting concept. I don't know squat about wheel balancers but I know crank shafts can be balanced for optimum rpm ranges. You can get smoothness at 4-5000 rpm or smoothness at 6500 - 7500 rpm but not the whole range. I realize this is a whole different thing as cranks are balancing rotating masses with reciprocating masses but if you could photograph a rim and tire with an infra red camera to detect areas of mass you may see some dense areas. These dense areas will exert different forces to different areas (like where the weight is on the rim) at different rpm's. Splitting the weights may create a zone where heavy mass areas can balance acceptably at varying rpm's.

 

[shockwave]

Definitely a road force balance it will detect high and spot in tire and wheel and best placement for wheels

 

[volleyball]

Sometimes a single weight will do it, sometimes it takes 5. It all depends on the tire and wheel.
I don't know all but toyota truck alloys use mag style lug nuts, not the cone style. They rely on the hub to center.

 

[DTE]

Jeez, we used a bubble balancer and never had an issue way bac when! The shop owner would never let us stack weights on a single point, but rather what he called isolating it by spacing weights equally on either side of the unbalanced spot! Like 30 degrees off on either side! Don't know if it was the right way, but we never had an issue unless the rim was bent!

Never used a computer balancer but have turned around many times to have them re-balanced after getting new tires!

I came along when things were simple, we had Hunter spin balancing equipment where the head clamped on the rim and you spun the front wheels with a machine and you ran the car for the rears. Back in the day that was the best. But then cars weren't made out of plastic either.

 

[wafrederick]

Don't put the wheel weight across each other.Have rebalanced wheels done by tire shops after having tires replaced,come in vibrating like hell.If the wheel requires 2 1/2 ounces or more each side,the wheel is likely bent which will need to get replaced.This a common problem with steel wheels a lot.

 

[kiatech]

Spoiler: nobody road forces brand new tires.
And hontestly I don't believe it when I did use it. A spin of the tire with the hood open and a good set of eyes will go along ways. You can feel a lot with your hands if you know what your looking for.

 

[wafrederick]

I have found bent steel wheels balancing them,take a lot of weight is one way to tell and you can see it in plain sight when it turning.

 

[Zeke]

This is an interesting concept. I don't know squat about wheel balancers but I know crank shafts can be balanced for optimum rpm ranges. You can get smoothness at 4-5000 rpm or smoothness at 6500 - 7500 rpm but not the whole range. I realize this is a whole different thing as cranks are balancing rotating masses with reciprocating masses but if you could photograph a rim and tire with an infra red camera to detect areas of mass you may see some dense areas. These dense areas will exert different forces to different areas (like where the weight is on the rim) at different rpm's. Splitting the weights may create a zone where heavy mass areas can balance acceptably at varying rpm's.

And tires will 'grow' at speed. Radials not so much but if the overlap in the lamination has a bit more mass the tire can go OOR at speed. I too have no experience with the HRF but I do have experience shaving tires to a perfect round. Good enough in most cases to the tire's rated speed limit.

From that point on you need to take a look at your rotors and rims. What you can do is balance them separately the best you can being practical and then balance the whole ***'y on the car with a strobe.

 

[srmofo]

Jeez, we used a bubble balancer and never had an issue way bac when! The shop owner would never let us stack weights on a single point, but rather what he called isolating it by spacing weights equally on either side of the unbalanced spot! Like 30 degrees off on either side! Don't know if it was the right way, but we never had an issue unless the rim was bent!

Never used a computer balancer but have turned around many times to have them re-balanced after getting new tires!

Many new balancers still have this function. Its called split balance. The only time I ever used was with large wheel off-road tire combo being mounted on a mall crawler. The ****** mud tires usuallly required an excessive amount of weight and by splitting it (Equal on both sides at locations marked by the machine) you could place less weight on it.

The only vehicle I have encounter that absolutely required the pins was those ******* toyotas the had that raised center around the hub with a huge hole in the back. The cone that fit the hole wouldnt go deep enough. Aftermarket wheels excluded.

You'll know the balancer is off calibration if the tech is "chasing weights".

Ive also placed .25 weights on customers wheels that I have none to be ignorantly picky to avoid the comeback. Whats funny is because of the rounding of the machine most of the time it still says zero after the new weight.

Road force balancers are a waste unless you are trying to locate a problem.

I never counter balanced (intentionally, sometimes those fuckers hide or the previous dickbag did and I only pulled off the first weight I saw, lol) but I cant recall ever seeing someone have a comeback because of it.

 

[bczygan]

Interesting thread for a consumer type like me to read.

I recently hit a pothole at speed, denting a steel wheel enough to chip out a piece of the plastic wheel cover, and leave a permanent depression in the wheel.

Will this throw the balance off and cause tire or handling problems (Including pounding at about 65MPH)? Techs at the tire store just said to rotate tires on the other side and leave this on the left rear.

Bill

 

[kiatech]

Interesting thread for a consumer type like me to read.

I recently hit a pothole at speed, denting a steel wheel enough to chip out a piece of the plastic wheel cover, and leave a permanent depression in the wheel.

Will this throw the balance off and cause tire or handling problems (Including pounding at about 65MPH)? Techs at the tire store just said to rotate tires on the other side and leave this on the left rear.

Bill

right rear, but it should balance fine.

 

[BQuicksilver]

Thanks for all the replies and good discussion.

FWIW, I'm mounting up 275/40/20 and 315/35/20 non-runflats on BMW 336 style wheels. The wheels are used with some unfriendly marks from a previous installer. Relly hoping for zero vibrations.

 

[NC-Shaun]

FWIW, the BMW wheels are always bent, add in the fact that they have a O ring sized sidewall and getting a smooth ride is mostly dependant on if your wheels arent bent yet which is a rare find....

 

[blackwire]

The machine makes it pretty easy, it tells you where to put the weights and how much to put on. If wheel is out of balance, the only thing to remember is to remove the old weights. Don't put new weights on in addition to the old ones.

 

[BQuicksilver]

Old weights are off, and wheels are well-cleaned. I figure it shows the tech that I care about doing a good job when I bring in clean wheels.