A few proposals for the 2017 NEC.

[Norcal]

Just read a few proposals for inclusion in the 2017 NEC that if adopted will affect shops & garages. This is not a complete list.

New: 110.14(D) – Electrical Equipment – Tightening Torque

A new requirement was recommended to mandate the use of a torque tool to achieve the indicated torque value at electrical equipment.


Revision: 210.8(A) – GFCI Protection – Dwelling Units

GFCI protection has been proposed to be expanded in dwelling units to include not only all 125-volt, but all 250-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in 210.8(A).


210.11(C)(4) – Dwelling Units – Garage Branch Circuits

A new requirement has been proposed to require at least one 20-ampere rated branch circuit to supply dwelling unit garage 125-volt receptacle outlet(s).

I have mixed feelings about 15A & 20A 240V receptacles being added because of A/C adjustable speed drives (VFD's) not playing well w/ GFCI's & I use several in my own shop. The rest of the above are good additions if adopted, another is dwellings will use AFCI's for all 120V circuits, that was coming still think they are snake oil.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Interesting. Where do u look up the proposols?

I wonder if 210.8(a) includes 125v/250v outlets as well aka NEMA 14-xR receptacles...

Also, requiring GFCIs for 250v circuits is gonna definitely add to building costs!

 

[Slowgsr]

I can only begin to imagine what has happened to introduce these rules.....

 

[Norcal]

Here is the link.

http://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/2015/04/30/analysis-of-changes-2017-nec/

 

[MTW]

From what I read on other forums, in many European countries and elsewhere, it has been mandatory to include ground fault protection (30mA) on the service main, 240V 2W.

I'm pretty sure that after they've sold enough branch circuit GFCI devices (5mA) here to fill the country's panels. They will become obsolete by requiring protection at the Main instead.

The VFD on a GFCI is already an issue for them, but on a Main. I bet you can guess what they do to get around this already.

MTW Ω

 

[MTW]

I took a look at the IAEI link, looks like the AFCI requirement is coming already.

Revision: 210.12(A) – Whole-House AFCI Protection

The GFCI protection for whole house will probably come in the next cycle, if not in a combined listing of the same main device...

MTW Ω

 

[tfi racing]

Love it.Lives saved-neglible, Rich men getting richer-countless...

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I took a look at the IAEI link, looks like the AFCI requirement is coming already.



The GFCI protection for whole house will probably come in the next cycle, if not in a combined listing of the same main device...

MTW Ω

Ugg. GFCI protection and or AFCI protection on a main breaker for a residence is gonna be stupid!

Yes theyre required for services 1000a and up and i agree with that.

But a residence? Come on!!!

I agree with TFI- the rich get richer!

I share the same opinion as Norcal- AFCIs are snake oil!

 

[dutchgray]

From what I read on other forums, in many European countries and elsewhere, it has been mandatory to include ground fault protection (30mA) on the service main, 240V 2W.

I'm pretty sure that after they've sold enough branch circuit GFCI devices (5mA) here to fill the country's panels. They will become obsolete by requiring protection at the Main instead.

The VFD on a GFCI is already an issue for them, but on a Main. I bet you can guess what they do to get around this already.

MTW Ω

Yes we do that here in the UK, but usually have a separate 100mA on the lighting side of the panel otherwise the whole lot goes out every time an incandescent blows, not that you're allowed to install them in new builds anymore now.

 

[sberry]

The 20A for a garage should have been in a long time ago.

 

[67carl]

Not being in the industry and knowing nothing about the process I'm curious: are the new additions based on a need to fix a real, existing problem or is it "make work", let's add something because we're expected to or some imagined future issue they are trying to prevent?

 

[PaulyC]

I believe that a lot of the proposals are "encouraged" by manufacturers, but i do know that some of them are suggestions that are sent in my ordinary electricians. You can fill out a form and send it to the NFPA and they will review it and let you know of their decision. The NFPA will actually publish a book that has all of the proposals that they received, along with who submitted it and where they are from, and will also state weather they passed or rejected it.

 

[reader2580]

A lot of what goes into the NEC seems to be to protect us from problems with really old wiring. A modern building built since 1990 (or even 1980) is unlikely to suffer an electrical fire if built to code at the time. A building built in 1990 would not have arc fault breakers.

 

[alfredeneuman]

are the new additions based on a need to fix a real, existing problem?

It's a solution desperately in search of a problem, not a solution to a problem.

It may even take 1st place in a snake oil competition.

 

[Norcal]

A lot of what goes into the NEC seems to be to protect us from problems with really old wiring. A modern building built since 1990 (or even 1980) is unlikely to suffer an electrical fire if built to code at the time. A building built in 1990 would not have arc fault breakers.

Bingo! By the time the wiring has aged sufficiently the AFCI's will have failed or been replaced w/ a circuit breaker because they did not want to pay the $$$ for a new one. One of these days a fire will occur in a AFCI equipped home & they will fail do what is claimed and w/ loss of life, the trial lawyers will make a mint. No one but the lawyers will win in that situation.


The requirement to use torque tools on terminations is good, there will be inspectors asking to see the tools at inspection time, too much torque is as bad as not enough.

 

[sberry]

We don't need no dam ground wire, its been fine all these years.

 

[theoldwizard1]

A lot of what goes into the NEC seems to be to protect us from problems with really old wiring. A modern building built since 1990 (or even 1980) is unlikely to suffer an electrical fire if built to code at the time. A building built in 1990 would not have arc fault breakers.

I don't know what the data really is, but <sarcasm> how could we have LIVED this long with millions of home WITHOUT arc fault protection and tamper resistant outlet ! </sarcasm>.

I raised 2 kids and now have 5 grandchildren. None of them have ever even tried to stick something in an outlet. I really believe that most of the NEC changes in the past 10-15 years have been to increase sales for manufacturers.

How many years did it take to get "in wall" splices/taps approved and even now, how many non-professionals know they exist !

 

[MushCreek]

I just installed the required AFCI breakers in my new house, and they are already causing trouble, tripping with my nail gun compressor. Haven't tried them yet with the wife's vacuum cleaner. The TR outlets are a pain with certain plugs, but I'm getting better with them. For some reason, my wife's laptop is almost impossible to plug in.

 

[CJ7VFR]

The TR outlets are a pain with certain plugs, but I'm getting better with them. For some reason, my wife's laptop is almost impossible to plug in.

I know what you mean!!

I just replaced a few older outlets in my home with the new TR ones. I figured they are code now, so why not.

But my god, any device with a cord that has a plug with those little round holes in the prongs are almost impossible to plug in like you said!!

I think the little holes in the prongs are getting hung up on the plastic tamper resistant stuff inside the outlet. They are a lot harder to plug in and take out.

Jim

 

[justsam]

Yes we do that here in the UK, but usually have a separate 100mA on the lighting side of the panel otherwise the whole lot goes out every time an incandescent blows, not that you're allowed to install them in new builds anymore now.

I am not in the trade, but I am curious what is the theory behind the tripping of the GFCI due to a failing incandescent? I have never observed this in my residence when a bulb fails.

I can see it if an AFCI is in play since there may be arcing before the filament opens.

 

[alfredeneuman]

I can see it if an AFCI is in play since there may be arcing before the filament opens.

That would a series fault.
One of the most, if not the most, common causes of fires occurs due to a glowing high resistance connection at receptacles, switches and the like.
AFCI sees that as only a load. AFCI does nothing at all to address these.

The AFCI only trips after a sustained series arc of 5 Amps, long after the connection has heated up enough to cause a fire.

 

[86turbodsl]

Thank god I got my house built before all this nonsense kicked in. Im replacing afci breakers with standard as they fail. ***** I had to put them in to start.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk

 

[sberry]

One thing I figured out from the internet, I really aint smarter than the guys that invent most things like that and that I wouldn't have made a pimple on Edisons cousins azz. I am still working on all the schemes they can design in to the common recep.

 

[reader2580]

Aren't arc faults supposed to deal with things like a screw that penetrates NM cable, but doesn't actually cause a direct short? I have AFCIs in my house and the only problem I have had to date is that my Milwaukee Sawzall trips the AFCIs. The Sawzall is fairly new so the brushes and such should not be worn out.

I hope we never go to GFI at the main breaker. Imagine losing power in the entire house because a little water got into an outside outlet during a bad storm. What if you were out of town and this happened?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

That would a series fault.
One of the most, if not the most, common causes of fires occurs due to a glowing high resistance connection at receptacles, switches and the like.
AFCI sees that as only a load. AFCI does nothing at all to address these.

The AFCI only trips after a sustained series arc of 5 Amps, long after the connection has heated up enough to cause a fire.

Thats why many in the industry consider them snake oil!

Aren't arc faults supposed to deal with things like a screw that penetrates NM cable, but doesn't actually cause a direct short? I have AFCIs in my house and the only problem I have had to date is that my Milwaukee Sawzall trips the AFCIs. The Sawzall is fairly new so the brushes and such should not be worn out.

I hope we never go to GFI at the main breaker. Imagine losing power in the entire house because a little water got into an outside outlet during a bad storm. What if you were out of town and this happened?

Yes, if the screw causes an arcing fault to occurr.

Even if the sawzall isnt worn out small arcing can still occur...