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SK compared to the big 3's 2nd tier tools?

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WhiffySpark

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This is precisely why SK can't survive. If a guy in Detroit doesn't understand the importance of buying American made products, companies like SK don't stand a chance.

When I was young, Taiwan tools sucked. Craftsman was more money, but good value and USA made. Sales were frequent, and buying Craftsman was very convenient. The tools we bought then were made by Ideal, and the old SK and Armstrong, etc.

Today, Sears is selling some of the worst Chinese products, Taiwan has greatly improved, offering affordable, decent quality tools. Like Sears of my day, Harbor Freight is readily accessible across the country offering liberal return policies. Meanwhile, SK and Ideal and to a lesser extent Armstrong/Danaher are still making the same product they always did but now without the Sears distribution system and seem perplexed as to why they aren't doing better.

For those of us old enough to remember, this is exactly what the Detroit auto industry did in the 1970s and 80s. The goofy x wrench is the AMC Pacer of the tool industry. Faced with direct competition from Asia in a free market economy, US companies must either join them (moving production overseas) or beat them by producing high quality, desirable products for affordable prices.

The question here is whether SK produces a product substantially better than the Taiwan competition. What SK needs to do is start competing- let's see the youtube comparisons, the magazine articles ("The Best of the DIY Grade") and products people are asking for. Its not enough to say "we are proudly made in the USA". That didn't save the car industry, unfortunately. And if we can't convince someone from Detroit to buy American, and realistically, I think we can't, we must compete.

Outside of this forum no one really cares from my experience.

I don't buy sk because I cannot warranty it easy. For instance I've warrantied 5 or 6 lug nut sockets in two months. That's more Than paid for itself with the higher purchase price
 
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Davefr

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US companies must either join them (moving production overseas) or beat them by producing high quality, desirable products for affordable prices.

Isn't that exactly what SK is doing? However SK is targeting the pro, semi pro or enthusiast that either isn't served by tool trucks or doesn't want to pay 3X the prices. I doubt SK is targeting "Joe Six Pack" who's only focus is price.

The question here is whether SK produces a product substantially better than the Taiwan competition.

That's a question for all the US tool companies, not just SK. The gap in quality is getting much narrower. SO is a little more immune to this due to their huge breadth of product offering.
 

PFSard

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For SK to be building a new manufacturing facility, a lot of people had to sign off on this.
I hope their market projections, projected costs, etc prove reliable and they have a decent amount of success.
 

HanShotFirst

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I don't think you'll get a very objective analysis here. Do you care about the chrome and how pretty it is or if there's a flaw in the finish?

What we know is that SK sockets are made in a newish facility in the USA by Americans. Sure there may be a few quality escapes, but they will be using high grade steel every time on machines that receive regular periodic inspections and will be heat treated in accordance with Ideal's processs. And these facts give them a huge advantage over anything from China or Taiwan where each of these is way more difficult.

Where I've been critical of SK has been their design. SK invented the round head ratchet, but didn't do much over the years in design. That was part of their allure, but maybe also their undoing. Snap On has a huge market share (not sure people here appreciate how dominant snap on is worldwide) and has a formidable design department in Kenosha. Tough for anyone to compete with Snap On. I think Danaher is a bigger company, but really doesn't compete in the automotive specialty tools Snap On does.

If you already have Snap On, I think I would recommend you look at Koken before SK. Koken makes sockets differently than Snap On. Snap On sockets are designed to fit easily, then bite just right when you rotate them. The flats inside the socket are curved ever so carefully. Koken sockets' flats are flatter and are designed to fit tight from the get go. They may not be as easy to use as Snappies on dirty fasteners. They may get stuck to some fasteners. But they will be nice to use on new hardware, newer cars, and may not mark hardware (which could be important for painted hardware, if the sockets will fit a painted screw head).

If you are looking for reliable general purpose sockets, you just can't beat Snap on. If you want something cheaper, yeah SK may be a good choice in sockets, but they won't offer anything Snap On doesn't offer. Koken offers a real alternate design you may find helpful at a price not far off SK.

I think that's a good assessment. I think the niche that SK fills is value per dollar. Where Snap On is just the best period. Those old SK ratchets are damn near indestructable, but they're less user friendly by a good margin. SK really should have continued to innovate while keeping their classic stuff.

20 years ago I bought some Craftsman Professional wrenches (made by SK). They are essentially the long pattern SK. I compared them very closely to Snap On's wrenches at the time and the two were damn near identical. I got out the calipers and they matched in all the dimensions that counted. So at that time the SK was the way to go since it was much cheaper. But the SK Super Chrome hasn't much changed, and Snap On just continues to innovate. While the SK's are damn fine wrenches, they're just not the equal of Snap On today....maybe the equal of Snap On 20 years ago, but this isn't 20 years ago.

Since I'm not a professional wrench, I don't need the absolute best, so the SK wrenches and sockets are probably overkill for me. But if I were a pro, I'd have some stuff that I'd buy a bit on the cheap side, but I'd have some Snap On flank drive for when things get dicey.
 

stage20

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Outside of this forum no one really cares from my experience.

I don't buy sk because I cannot warranty it easy. For instance I've warrantied 5 or 6 lug nut sockets in two months. That's more Than paid for itself with the higher purchase price
what brand and im assuming you are a tire changer?
i didnt think their was a warranty on the flip sockets, if that is what you are using.
seems like excessive damage to me.
 

hangfirew8

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The market seems to be supporting many different tool manufacturers at the same time - and doing it just fine, so I see no imperative that SK must die because another is doing well. Indeed, Apex has consolidated costs while keeping the designs that are unique to SK, plus adding more. If (and this is a big if) they get their quality and production issues straightened out, I think they'll prosper.

I still don't like their shallow broached deep sockets, though.
 
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gdocktor3

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I keep hearing about their 1/4" ratchets being really good. Any reason why they are better than the 3/8" or 1/2" drive? Same design, no?
 

Bigblue&Goldie

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I keep hearing about their 1/4" ratchets being really good. Any reason why they are better than the 3/8" or 1/2" drive? Same design, no?

Light back drag and compact. Just like the 1/2" Dual 80, they are the star of the line up. In both cases, the other sizes aren't bad, but these are the stand outs.
 

1950mercury

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This is precisely why SK can't survive. If a guy in Detroit doesn't understand the importance of buying American made products, companies like SK don't stand a chance.

When I was young, Taiwan tools sucked. Craftsman was more money, but good value and USA made. Sales were frequent, and buying Craftsman was very convenient. The tools we bought then were made by Ideal, and the old SK and Armstrong, etc.

Today, Sears is selling some of the worst Chinese products, Taiwan has greatly improved, offering affordable, decent quality tools. Like Sears of my day, Harbor Freight is readily accessible across the country offering liberal return policies. Meanwhile, SK and Ideal and to a lesser extent Armstrong/Danaher are still making the same product they always did but now without the Sears distribution system and seem perplexed as to why they aren't doing better.

For those of us old enough to remember, this is exactly what the Detroit auto industry did in the 1970s and 80s. The goofy x wrench is the AMC Pacer of the tool industry. Faced with direct competition from Asia in a free market economy, US companies must either join them (moving production overseas) or beat them by producing high quality, desirable products for affordable prices.

The question here is whether SK produces a product substantially better than the Taiwan competition. What SK needs to do is start competing- let's see the youtube comparisons, the magazine articles ("The Best of the DIY Grade") and products people are asking for. Its not enough to say "we are proudly made in the USA". That didn't save the car industry, unfortunately. And if we can't convince someone from Detroit to buy American, and realistically, I think we can't, we must compete.

Let me clarify my last post. I never said dont buy sk sockets. My last post was a response to the op's decision between gearwrench and sk 1/4 drive. My point was if he doesn't want to spend the cash on sk skip the gearwrench and buy hf.

Hf is Taiwan and qw is now china.

The only sk sockets i have are 1/4 semi deeps and they are great.

Like i said if i was going to buy a 1/4 set because i didnt have any id buy the 1/4 drive semi deep set in the grn case at hje.

I will say i dont like sk screwdrivers or ratchets. Sure they work and get the job done but snap ons are so much nicer.
 
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WhiffySpark

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what brand and im assuming you are a tire changer?
i didnt think their was a warranty on the flip sockets, if that is what you are using.
seems like excessive damage to me.

No I'm not a tire changer. Matco primary. Also have snap on.

Although the tire changers use my ****
 
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gdocktor3

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Just curious, whats the word on Williams ratchets? From what I see, they are pretty cheap. Cheaper than SK's. And SK is supposed to be the cheaper, affordable US tool co. I know the Williams have a low tooth count ratchet system, but how are they?
 

HanShotFirst

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This is precisely why SK can't survive. If a guy in Detroit doesn't understand the importance of buying American made products, companies like SK don't stand a chance.

When I was young, Taiwan tools sucked. Craftsman was more money, but good value and USA made. Sales were frequent, and buying Craftsman was very convenient. The tools we bought then were made by Ideal, and the old SK and Armstrong, etc.

Today, Sears is selling some of the worst Chinese products, Taiwan has greatly improved, offering affordable, decent quality tools. Like Sears of my day, Harbor Freight is readily accessible across the country offering liberal return policies. Meanwhile, SK and Ideal and to a lesser extent Armstrong/Danaher are still making the same product they always did but now without the Sears distribution system and seem perplexed as to why they aren't doing better.

For those of us old enough to remember, this is exactly what the Detroit auto industry did in the 1970s and 80s. The goofy x wrench is the AMC Pacer of the tool industry. Faced with direct competition from Asia in a free market economy, US companies must either join them (moving production overseas) or beat them by producing high quality, desirable products for affordable prices.

The question here is whether SK produces a product substantially better than the Taiwan competition. What SK needs to do is start competing- let's see the youtube comparisons, the magazine articles ("The Best of the DIY Grade") and products people are asking for. Its not enough to say "we are proudly made in the USA". That didn't save the car industry, unfortunately. And if we can't convince someone from Detroit to buy American, and realistically, I think we can't, we must compete.
The success of a business rarely has anything to do with the product. It comes down to their ability to sell a product, and the business system that keeps the wheels turning.

Their business system is solid, they've been around for a long time, so it's not like that will bring them down. So if they can keep sales invigorated they'll be just fine.
 

RedneckWelder

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Just curious, whats the word on Williams ratchets? From what I see, they are pretty cheap. Cheaper than SK's. And SK is supposed to be the cheaper, affordable US tool co. I know the Williams have a low tooth count ratchet system, but how are they?

The Williams USA ratchets are great ratchets. They are just older Snap On ratchets. I have one each in 1/4, 3/8, and 1/2 and use them every day. I don't find the tooth count to be a hindrance.
 

ihateminimumwage

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I keep hearing about their 1/4" ratchets being really good. Any reason why they are better than the 3/8" or 1/2" drive? Same design, no?
They use the same mechanism IIRC, just scaled up for the 3/8" & 1/2" ratchets. Feels much smoother in 1/4", a little rougher (until properly lubed) in 3/8" and pretty rough in 1/2" drive.

I love my 1/4" and 3/8" SK ratchets. They fit right in alongside my Snappy 80 tooth ratchets. Messed with my bosses 1/2" drive SK ratchet today and was not a fan. Round heads at that scale just have too much slop compared to what else I've used (still miles ahead of a 36 tooth RP Craftsman).
 
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AmishFury

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I keep hearing about their 1/4" ratchets being really good. Any reason why they are better than the 3/8" or 1/2" drive? Same design, no?

compared to the 3/8 (haven't used an SK 1/2) the 1/4 inch has more teeth (60 vs 40), less backdrag, and is very small and compact
 

rice rocket

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what is going south on the sockets? all of them have the same issue?

Read last year's SK/Epstein's Day thread.

Everything from inconsistent finishes (minor inconvenience, but matters to some people), to flaked chrome (pretty bad for chrome sockets since it'll rust pretty quick and also slice open your hand), to being broached off center, to different broach depths for the same socket sets.

Not a great showing for SK, really. Seems like they have the potential to make good tools, their quality control is really subpar though.


edit: here's the thread, start at pg 95 and grab some popcorn:

http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=257824&page=95
 
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gdocktor3

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SK is on the high side of the competition price-wise. If you compare other US made sockets sets for example, you will find SK is tied for most expensive (with Armstrong). Proto and USA Williams, for example, are both cheaper. If a GJ member were looking for best value US made sockets, Williams would be tough to beat, offering decent quality for almost Taiwan prices.

Meanwhile, as others have pointed out, the Taiwan Williams are half the price of the US made Williams sockets and quite good quality. This is the market SK operates in. Its a tough field.

So to answer the OPs question directly, neglecting SK's quality, the pricing is a bit on the high side given the competition. Were I in this market, I'd be looking long and hard at US made JH Williams. Contrary to popular belief, Williams doesn't have Snap On quality, but they do have Snap On's older designs, which are good enough. And for the price, I feel they are SK's biggest US competition.

I searched high and low and Williams prices could not touch SK. They were hundreds more for comparable set.
 
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gdocktor3

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I searched for days, not minutes. Now, find me a combination 40+ piece 3/8" set made by USA Williams for a better price than I paid for the SK one at $146 delivered to my door. It can't and won't happen unless it is Taiwan.

Believe me, I would have went with Williams if I could find one, but its not happening. And if I understand you correctly, I'm not finding any comparable data to spend more on the Williams either.
 
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User_Name

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I searched for days, not minutes. Now, find me a combination 40+ piece 3/8" set made by USA Williams for a better price than I paid for the SK one at $146 delivered to my door. It can't and won't happen unless it is Taiwan.

Believe me, I would have went with Williams if I could find one, but its not happening. And if I understand you correctly, I'm not finding any comparable data to spend more on the Williams either.


I went through the same exercise and came to the same conclusion.
The SK sets are the best bang-for-the-buck in US made sockets.
 

organ

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SK is on the high side of the competition price-wise. If you compare other US made sockets sets for example, you will find SK is tied for most expensive (with Armstrong). Proto and USA Williams, for example, are both cheaper. If a GJ member were looking for best value US made sockets, Williams would be tough to beat, offering decent quality for almost Taiwan prices.

Meanwhile, as others have pointed out, the Taiwan Williams are half the price of the US made Williams sockets and quite good quality. This is the market SK operates in. Its a tough field.

So to answer the OPs question directly, neglecting SK's quality, the pricing is a bit on the high side given the competition. Were I in this market, I'd be looking long and hard at US made JH Williams. Contrary to popular belief, Williams doesn't have Snap On quality, but they do have Snap On's older designs, which are good enough. And for the price, I feel they are SK's biggest US competition.
Why are you so invested in this? Seems odd...
 

u118224

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I like SK Tools a lot, but I also like Armstrong, Proto, Williams and Wright. They are all very good to excellent quality, and each one does something better than the other. Let's be thankful we have a choice and let's continue to support our US manufacturers.
 

1950mercury

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I like SK Tools a lot, but I also like Armstrong, Proto, Williams and Wright. They are all very good to excellent quality, and each one does something better than the other. Let's be thankful we have a choice and let's continue to support our US manufacturers.

Well said
 

sonvolt

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I like SK Tools a lot, but I also like Armstrong, Proto, Williams and Wright. They are all very good to excellent quality, and each one does something better than the other. Let's be thankful we have a choice and let's continue to support our US manufacturers.

I agree 1000%, I have all of the above :pimpflash
 
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gdocktor3

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Well here is the bottom line. I just got home from work and the set was here. Overall impression - "Could be better" I haven't used them yet, but on first inspection I'm finding everything I read was true. The 6" extension has some flakey spots of chrome missing. Not a big deal, but its brand new. Shouldn't be that way. The direction selector on the ratchet itself rattles if shaken. Unsure if that is a problem or not, but I don't remember my other ratchets doing that. And finally, the 7/8" socket has a flake of something hanging off down in the socket. It wont affect anything, but whatever the lightly colored grey stuff inside the sockets is, looks to have been sprayed on. I cannot tell if it was done before or after chroming, but maybe they did it to save some money??? The flake piece is a hard, thin piece of what looks like a protectant or barrier to prevent the inside from rusting since it is not chromed. It is also patchy looking inside. Almost even looks like it was dipped in something and the acid affected other spot more so than others. I don't know how to add pictures or I will. Someone can message me and tell me how and I'll gladly post them. I mean its a complete metric and fractional set, deep and shallow, in a nice case. For the price its worth it as long as I don't split a socket or something like that. Like I said I didn't buy it for the ratchet, but it doesn't feel anything like my old vintage SK ratchets and if someone were to buy this set to really use and abuse, I'm not sure the ratchet would hold up. But that's my OPINION and haven't tested that theory. Either way, I don't think I'll be buying the 1/4" set from them.
 

ttpete

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The deal with Grainger is they are very easy to deal with if you're a commercial buyer, and if they say it's in stock, it's in stock. Small things you might think, but both a big deal in the corporate world.

I dealt with Grainger. A LOT. They provide a service for industrial customers that makes it easier and quicker to locate and source just about anything needed. I had a rep assigned to me, and when I needed something, I'd just give him the specs, usually make and model, and he'd get back and tell me when he could have it on my dock. That kind of service is worth whatever it costs many times. I could call him for something in stock, and by the time my driver got there, it'd be on the counter waiting for him. There were perks, too. We had occasional meetings over lunch at a nice steak house on their dime.
 

PFSard

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Well here is the bottom line. I just got home from work and the set was here. Overall impression - "Could be better". <Cut here>

I don't have any "newer" SK tools. I have many older SK sockets, ratchets, et al that are good.

If I were to order some and were not entirely pleased with my purchase, I would certainly let the appropriate person(s) know. We have a person from SK who frequents this site. I would probably start here.

SK Eric
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/search.php?searchid=23014461
 

SK Eric

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Well, there's no surprise that Adam.C is spending copious time trying to convince those who will listen that S·K is a bad company that's doomed to fail. He does it in every thread that S·K is mentioned, often writing paragraphs upon paragraphs of opinion. For anybody that hasn't seen this pattern, just understand that this is his M.O.

I read almost every post in this thread with interest. There's a lot of truth and insight about the industry on display here. Let me just add a perspective from the inside of S·K. When IDEAL bought S·K, we were under no illusions that making a comeback--especially after losing all sales channels--would be easy. The factory was shut down and in shambles, with a lot of the 'tribal' manufacturing knowledge gone. What we saw was a legacy company with a great history of manufacturing in the USA, which fit in with our plans going forward. We think that there's value in a high quality brand made in USA and that people will pay a little more for it. IDEAL is not a public company, it is a 100-year-old family owned business that measures performance in generations, not quarters. We have the time and focus to be sure that every new product that we release is 100% ready to work. The restart of S·K has been really challenging: we've learned a TON. I think folks will be very pleasantly surprised with what we are doing over the next several years, and maybe even revisit this thread to shuffle the rankings of USA-made tools.
 
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gdocktor3

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Thanks SK ERIC. Now with that said, I'm the op and I'm a bit unhappy with a few items in the set I just received. Is it possible SK could replace the items that have flaking chrome and what not? Could you explain the idea behind the grey internals of the sockets and why they aren't chrome? Thanks
 

OutsideMachinist

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Thanks SK ERIC. Now with that said, I'm the op and I'm a bit unhappy with a few items in the set I just received. Is it possible SK could replace the items that have flaking chrome and what not? Could you explain the idea behind the grey internals of the sockets and why they aren't chrome? Thanks

By all means attempt to warranty/exchange stuff with flaking chrome. As far as the socket internals, I have seen multiple usa companies that also do this. They apply paint or whatever the case may be instead of chrome. Not a big issue to me. The flaking on new stuff definitely. Don't see why they wouldn't take care of that for you.
 

Davefr

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Exterior chrome flaking/rust is an issue. You should get this addressed.

Slight rust spots and paint inside the sockets is not a problem. There was lots of discussion on why chroming inside the socket is problematic and why manufacturers apply a protective coating instead. Try doing a search.
 

kythri

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SK and Ideal and to a lesser extent Armstrong/Danaher are still making the same product they always did but now without the Sears distribution system and seem perplexed as to why they aren't doing better.

Source? Or is this conjecture and fantasy?
 
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gdocktor3

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Shoot, if I don't get it exchanged now and in a few months it's covered in rust, they'll hit me with neglect and I'll never get it exchanged.
 

cgv69

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I went through the same exercise and came to the same conclusion. The SK sets are the best bang-for-the-buck in US made sockets.
I did too. Williams came really close and if I'm being honest, I probably liked Williams sockets just a tad bit more (like 9.5 for SK and 9.6 for Williams) but I found that SK had a better selection of available sizes and because they are carried by a lot more places, its easier to find deals on SK stuff like those crazy 20-30 percent off days at Zoro or Epstein/SK days.

Speaking of which, I ordered some SK stuff on the Epstein/SK day as well as sets from other vendors over the last 2 years. All of the sets were perfect except for one. One set came with 1 socket missing and 2 of another size. The packaging was ripped so it's hard to say if that was SK or the vendor mistake but SK's CS was great and made it right immediately.

That's why I say when you factor everything in, quality, price, availability, selection, warranty, CS, I think SK is the best overall deal going in sockets right now.
 

Brownsfan

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Shoot, if I don't get it exchanged now and in a few months it's covered in rust, they'll hit me with neglect and I'll never get it exchanged.

Call SK and they WILL send out new ones. SK Eric isn't the only warranty option here. That's why they have a customer service number. The paint /corrosion protection on the inside is NORMAL. A lot of companies do this. The chrome flaking is an issue and a quick call to SK will get it handled . That is considered a manufacturer defect and not normal wear and tear.
 
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