AFCI (arc fault breaker) nuisance tripping

[will gilmore]

I live in a house that was totally rewired in 2009/2010. In the breaker panel we have 4 Murray MP-AT AFCI breakers. 3 x 20 amps, 1 x 15 amp. These cover the two bedrooms. We've always had intermittent nuisance tripping in the 2nd bed room but it's always been a guest room and now a kids room so I wasn't motivated to track it down. We just put a TV in the master bedroom and we're now getting intermittent nuisance tripping on that circuit. Sometimes the TV can be on for a long time. Sometimes it trips after a minute.

Do I:
a) get an electrician to sort it out,
b) try to diagnose it myself, or
c) by a different (newer) AFCI breaker and hope the technology has progressed?

If (c), who makes the breaker least likely to nuisance trip?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

What kind of TV- LCD, LED or Plasma?

If plasma they have been known to cause nuissance tripping of GFCIs.

Theres actually a rather large thread from last year that delved into this.

 

[will gilmore]

LED.

I searched and didn't find anything. Link?

 

[Mustang51js]

I would try a updated arc fault or replace with a normal breaker. Was there any wires ran or outlets added to put TV in room

 

[wyliesdiesels]

LED.

I searched and didn't find anything. Link?

Sorry it was actually from 2013.

Here it is:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=192467&highlight=AFCI&showall=1

 

[will gilmore]

I would try a updated arc fault or replace with a normal breaker. Was there any wires ran or outlets added to put TV in room

That's what I was thinking. Any opinions on what brand would be a good upgrade?

Nothing new added since the rewire but I don't think we have ever used these receptacles.

Sorry it was actually from 2013.

Here it is:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=192467&highlight=AFCI&showall=1

Thanks

 

[CNGsaves]

If you're thinking it's the TV causing the nuisance trip, how about adding a UPS (uninterrupted power supply) . . . ie a battery backup ?? It would be good safety measure anyway to prevent damage to TV in event of lightning strike.

 

[Mustang51js]

That's what I was thinking. Any opinions on what brand would be a good upgrade?

Nothing new added since the rewire but I don't think we have ever used these receptacles.



Thanks

You can't change brands of breakers,unless you swap out your whole panel. Cutler hammer br series is really the only one that can be interchanged with some other panels legally,but you have to tape the paper to panel cover. You have to use a Murray arc fault again or try the cutler hammer br breaker

 

[will gilmore]

You can't change brands of breakers,unless you swap out your whole panel. Cutler hammer br series is really the only one that can be interchanged with some other panels legally,but you have to tape the paper to panel cover. You have to use a Murray arc fault again or try the cutler hammer br breaker

Hmm. I forgot about that. I never heard of Murray before so I figured they were some low cost breakers but true enough they're in a Murray panel.

In that case, is it worth replacing with a newer Murray or on to one of the other options?

 

[BDT/NWMN]

how about trading places amongst the 20 amp breakers to see if all three trip when connected to the master bedroom circuit, or if there is one breaker that will trip on whatever circuit it is connected to... If that comes up inconclusive, how about buying one new breaker and trade it amongst the three circuits ... Might be time to check all the wire connections if all the breakers trip while on any one circuit . Could also move the tv from room to room and see if the problem follows the tv around.

 

[justsam]

Murray is owned by Siemens.

Does your AFCI breaker have any LEDs on it?

Some of the smarter Combination (series or parallel arcs), have one or more LEDs on them and retain fault information. Typically, arc hot to neutral, arc hot to ground, or series arc on hot or neutral.

The information may not solve your issue, but would be interesting to see if it is consistent, and diagnose from there.

 

[Jlarson]

-Check for wiring damage
-Check for crossed neutrals
-Check for neutral ground contact
-Put in updated Murray AFCI

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The early AFCIs had many issues with nuissance tripping. How old and what bersion of AFCIs do u have?

 

[BDT/NWMN]

www.afcisafety.org has a pdf download that may be helpful in pinning down this problem.....


Would sure be nice to know who makes the most trouble free afci,, especially for the folks doing a new construction, complete rewire or adding a subpanel for an addition???

 

[mdd1986]

You can't change brands of breakers,unless you swap out your whole panel. Cutler hammer br series is really the only one that can be interchanged with some other panels legally,but you have to tape the paper to panel cover. You have to use a Murray arc fault again or try the cutler hammer br breaker

I been reading a few threads on here with people suggesting to try different brand breakers. This point is hardly ever mentioned. To add to this panelboards are given a UL listing based on the entire assembly including circuit breakers. By using a different brand circuit breaker from the panelboard you no longer have a UL listed device.


Also AFCI devices are required by code, so removing them entirely is not an option.

 

[will gilmore]

Thanks for the thoughts guys. The ACFIs were installed in 2009 or 2010.

Sorry for the terrible picture, I broke the camera lens on my phone and I'm using the front camera.



A little blurry but: Issue no. 1021

If there is a newer Murray it would be worth the $ to me to try one. The problem is intermittent enough that moving the tv around is going to be a big hassle for possibly inconclusive results.

 

[86turbodsl]

I built my house in 07-09 and have Siemens AFCI in my box. I had nuisance trips on a few circuits, ended up removing the offenders and replacing with standard. They worked fine for decades before AFCI's were available. In my opinion, the NEC is getting out of control. If the code critter shows up, i can throw it back in for the inspection.

 

[bzinsky]

I built my house in 07-09 and have Siemens AFCI in my box. I had nuisance trips on a few circuits, ended up removing the offenders and replacing with standard. They worked fine for decades before AFCI's were available. In my opinion, the NEC is getting out of control. If the code critter shows up, i can throw it back in for the inspection.

pretty much the exact advice I was going to give

just ditch it. I highly doubt a home inspector is going to test each circuit to make sure the proper ones are arc faulted. Even if someone does catch it, the worst case scenario is you need to change it out.

 

[bzinsky]

Also AFCI devices are required by code, so removing them entirely is not an option.

breaking code is always an option, it's just risk vs reward. In this case the risk is almost 0.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Because AFCIs are snake oil!

 

[ddawg16]

Because AFCIs are snake oil!

I disagree....I've had no issues....and when it did trip it was because of a broken wire.

 

[mdd1986]

breaking code is always an option, it's just risk vs reward. In this case the risk is almost 0.

So all the people at NFPA that come up with codes just do it for fun? The codes are there for reasons. I'm not saying I agree with all them but AFCI do serve a purpose. Obviously its your home and you do as you please but people should be aware of what could happen if you do not follow certain codes.

 

[ddawg16]

To the OP.....swap the wires on the AFCI. If the problem follows the wire, then you most likely have a wiring problem.

You could also try a load test.

Take your voltmeter and plug it into the target outlet. Measure the voltage.
Now plug in an iron in the other outlet. Turn it on and measure the change.

Assuming you have a 1200w iron (10A), you should only see about a 1-2 v drop depending on how far that outlet is from the CB.

If you see a 6-8v drop and/or it bounces around....you have a wiring issue.

Most common problems are where the outlets daisy chain from one to the next.

 

[acer66]

breaking code is always an option, it's just risk vs reward. In this case the risk is almost 0.

Well almost but in case of fire or whatever afci's supposed to help to avoid and you can not switch back to afci's your insurance company might be having a field day with you when you try to file a claim.

 

[Jlarson]

Try the newest Murray AFCI, they have built in diagnostic indicators now that at least give you some clue what it went out on too.

Older versions of every brand had tons of issues.

 

[mdd1986]

Well almost but in case of fire or whatever afci's supposed to help to avoid and you can not switch back to afci's your insurance company might be having a field day with you when you try to file a claim.

yea if you ever have a fire in your house that could have been prevented from an AFCI breaker, forget about getting anything back from an insurance company.

 

[justsam]

www.afcisafety.org has a pdf download that may be helpful in pinning down this problem.....


Would sure be nice to know who makes the most trouble free afci,, especially for the folks doing a new construction, complete rewire or adding a subpanel for an addition???

I can give a sample of one, perhaps two.

My home was built in the 2006 time frame, and has Siemens panel and Siemens AFCI (15Amp). I have never had a false trip on any of them, and one of the bedrooms does have a plasma TV.

I also have a guest house on the property, with a separate meter feed. It has the same brand components as above and I have never had a false trip.

 

[will gilmore]

To the OP.....swap the wires on the AFCI. If the problem follows the wire, then you most likely have a wiring problem.

You could also try a load test.

Take your voltmeter and plug it into the target outlet. Measure the voltage.
Now plug in an iron in the other outlet. Turn it on and measure the change.

Assuming you have a 1200w iron (10A), you should only see about a 1-2 v drop depending on how far that outlet is from the CB.

If you see a 6-8v drop and/or it bounces around....you have a wiring issue.

Most common problems are where the outlets daisy chain from one to the next.

We've gone a few days without a trip so my motivation for tracking this down is dwindling. I'll keep this in mind when the problem reemerges.