Do top Spray Gun brands post Transfer Efficiency Rates? Why Not?

[CobraRed]

I see a lot of "highest transfer efficiency yet" and "even higher than before" and of course >65% which is basically the legal minimum.

But no numbers. Sata, DeVilbiss, Iwata all mention improvements with new models but no baseline to go off of that i've found. Do any manufacturers?

With a gallon of quality paint possibly being $250-300+ i'd like to be able to calculate over-spray loss.

It seems that with torque wrenches ft/lbs act as a great equalizer for advertising improvements (albeit deceptive or fudged at times).

Why isn't there something similar for spray guns?

 

[Astro_Pneumatic_Tools]

But then the jig in the marketing Dept. would be up

__________________
Chris
Product Manager

 

[Fcvapor05]

I see a lot of "highest transfer efficiency yet" and "even higher than before" and of course >65% which is basically the legal minimum.

But no numbers. Sata, DeVilbiss, Iwata all mention improvements with new models but no baseline to go off of that i've found. Do any manufacturers?

With a gallon of quality paint possibly being $250-300+ i'd like to be able to calculate over-spray loss.

It seems that with torque wrenches ft/lbs act as a great equalizer for advertising improvements (albeit deceptive or fudged at times).

Why isn't there something similar for spray guns?

There's a LOT of variables that have a marked effect on TE. Everything from operator skill and gun settings, to the quality of the air system and compressor, to the dew point and temperature in the booth (or garage.. or whatever) affect TE a lot. If they advertise a hard TE number, they are saying they can control all that stuff. Which they can't, so they don't. It's not about marketing really.. the gun is probably the LEAST important factor in getting high TE out of a paint system. They know that.

 

[CobraRed]

There's a LOT of variables that have a marked effect on TE. Everything from operator skill and gun settings, to the quality of the air system and compressor, to the dew point and temperature in the booth (or garage.. or whatever) affect TE a lot. If they advertise a hard TE number, they are saying they can control all that stuff. Which they can't, so they don't. It's not about marketing really.. the gun is probably the LEAST important factor in getting high TE out of a paint system. They know that.

Hmm, I wouldn't have thought "least" important, especially when they are all touting the improved efficiency - if it doesn't really matter.

Just like horsepower rating and the like, you'd think there would be (and I know there are) standardized methods for measuring TE. Seems like this baseline rating would be a good marker for how quality a gun is or at least if they are in fact increasing TF or just making this stuff up.

Buying $3000 in spray guns to test them all out for yourself isn't something a lot of people can do before choosing a main gun.

 

[Fcvapor05]

Hmm, I wouldn't have thought "least" important, especially when they are all touting the improved efficiency - if it doesn't really matter.

Just like horsepower rating and the like, you'd think there would be (and I know there are) standardized methods for measuring TE. Seems like this baseline rating would be a good marker for how quality a gun is or at least if they are in fact increasing TF or just making this stuff up.

Buying $3000 in spray guns to test them all out for yourself isn't something a lot of people can do before choosing a main gun.

It's easy for them to compare their new gun to their old gun and talk about how much better it is... Much more difficult for them to compare the conditions in their test lab with whatever materials they use to your booth or home setup and whatever paint you're going to use. The biggest thing they can't control is, by far, operator skill. So if they measure TE in a lab on a robot, how can they guarantee joe blow painting Studebakers in his garage in Mississippi is going to see 71.2% TE? They can't.

 

[CobraRed]

It's easy for them to compare their new gun to their old gun and talk about how much better it is... Much more difficult for them to compare the conditions in their test lab with whatever materials they use to your booth or home setup and whatever paint you're going to use. The biggest thing they can't control is, by far, operator skill. So if they measure TE in a lab on a robot, how can they guarantee joe blow painting Studebakers in his garage in Mississippi is going to see 71.2% TE? They can't.

Well if I strap my car on a dyno i'm not going to see the manufacturer's HP rating given drivetrain loss, barometric pressure, temperature, wheel/tire weight ect. But if everyone's using a similar metric and my car is rated at 300 and some other model is rated at 250, I can at least assume it's likely more than that model.

I'm not trying to pin down and replicate the exact 71.2%, more like buy the gun that costs less but is rated at 80% vs more a expensive gun @ 71.2% - assuming they use the same robot/metric.

 

[balane]

The hard part would be getting every manufacturer to honestly follow the reporting standard. It could bite them in the rear easily. Manufacturer A honestly reports a number based on the testing standards. Manufacturer B modifies the standard so they can report a 5% better result and people flock to that item even though A is superior. This is a common issue when buying speakers and their efficiency rating, so many are modifying the standards that the numbers have ended up being meaningless. Unless it's being regulated, which it probably won't ever be, they can do whatever they like.

 

[CobraRed]

The hard part would be getting every manufacturer to honestly follow the reporting standard. It could bite them in the rear easily. Manufacturer A honestly reports a number based on the testing standards. Manufacturer B modifies the standard so they can report a 5% better result and people flock to that item even though A is superior. This is a common issue when buying speakers and their efficiency rating, so many are modifying the standards that the numbers have ended up being meaningless. Unless it's being regulated, which it probably won't ever be, they can do whatever they like.

Like impact toque ratings?

The manufacturer's should just list whatever agreed upon standard in which the rating was achieved.

 

[Astro_Pneumatic_Tools]

These standards already exist in order to meet legal requirements in the US and especially in Europe where you basically need to send it to an authorized third party for a rating. If that certified rating is above the legal threshold, you can sell that spray gun in that market.
It's not a large assumption to suppose every major manufacturer of spray guns will have these for every model they make.

__________________
Chris
Product Manager

 

[CobraRed]

Now we just need that same info from other brands to make an quantifiable rather than quantifiable comparison of spray guns (for the first time ever?)!

 

[logical]

The plants I work in have full blown automotive assembly plant style paint systems in several of them. I am not a paint guy but have been around them for many years. F These are full wash systems, blow-off, drying tunnels, multi-robotic paint application of primers, base and clear coat, flash off booth and high temp drying ovens... all with very sophisticated conveyors, air handling & air filtration systems.

Unless you are using a really bad gun, or jumping all the way up to electrostatic application with rotary atomizing bells to apply the paint...... the tune in of the robot programs (or operator skill if it was a manual spray) and the paint delivery parameters like pressure, paint flow rate and solvent ratios (whether in a big factory system or some dude in his garage) are really much bigger contributors to transfer efficiency than what brand gun you use.

 

[logical]

Hmm, I wouldn't have thought "least" important, especially when they are all touting the improved efficiency - if it doesn't really matter.

Just like horsepower rating and the like, you'd think there would be (and I know there are) standardized methods for measuring TE. Seems like this baseline rating would be a good marker for how quality a gun is or at least if they are in fact increasing TF or just making this stuff up.

Buying $3000 in spray guns to test them all out for yourself isn't something a lot of people can do before choosing a main gun.

Its really not a great analogy. You don't see the guys who make fuel injector nozzles advertising horsepower ratings for their little gas squirters.

 

[Fcvapor05]

The plants I work in have full blown automotive assembly plant style paint systems in several of them. I am not a paint guy but have been around them for many years. F These are full wash systems, blow-off, drying tunnels, multi-robotic paint application of primers, base and clear coat, flash off booth and high temp drying ovens... all with very sophisticated conveyors, air handling & air filtration systems.

Unless you are using a really bad gun, or jumping all the way up to electrostatic application with rotary atomizing bells to apply the paint...... the tune in of the robot programs (or operator skill if it was a manual spray) and the paint delivery parameters like pressure, paint flow rate and solvent ratios (whether in a big factory system or some dude in his garage) are really much bigger contributors to transfer efficiency than what brand gun you use.

Yep.

 

[404]

The hard part would be getting every manufacturer to honestly follow the reporting standard. It could bite them in the rear easily. Manufacturer A honestly reports a number based on the testing standards. Manufacturer B modifies the standard so they can report a 5% better result and people flock to that item even though A is superior. This is a common issue when buying speakers and their efficiency rating, so many are modifying the standards that the numbers have ended up being meaningless. Unless it's being regulated, which it probably won't ever be, they can do whatever they like.

And this is why we have 7.5 HP shop vacs running on 120v with 18 gauge power cord wire...

 

[03protege]

Reminds me of the car audio days and I would hear people talking about how large of an amplifier they had.

Them: "I just got a new 3,000w amplifier for my subs"

When it is actually just some $50 600w rms amp with SUPER MAX POWER RATING 3,000,000 W!