Data & TV (Fios) to garage

[Zogman]

My garage build is about 300' line of sight from my house. I ran RG6 cable to the garage when I was running the power and that came to a bit over 400'. Verizon installed a bridge yesterday and I get good TV reception but data and TV data is not strong enough to hold a connection with the router.

Is there a device out there that can take the output of my ONT with an RG6 connector and transmit with a line of site to a receiver to the garage and into the bride and cable TV box???

Thanks

Zoli

 

[timcali]

Can you split data off at the house, and transmit just that? They make a variety of WiFi range extenders. You might want to checkout out the Ubiquiti product line. They may have something you can use.

 

[Zogman]

Thanks Tim but I need both data and TV transmitted. Reason is the cable box is receiving video but it also needs data for all of the guide and info stuff and it's not getting it. Plus the signal degrades when I try to pull TV from my DVR back at the house.

 

[kart-racer]

The max amount of coax you can have on a FiOS circuit is 400 feet combined. If you could shorten all legs so your total rg6 length is 400feet it will work.

 

[erty67]

RG6 cable loses about 7dB per 100 ft on higher frequencies. At 400ft, you're losing a ton. Is that conduit big enough to fit RG11? Cut the loss in half.

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[Limo57]

You said you had line of site....Why not use a flat directional antenna?

 

[chrispyny]

You said you had line of site....Why not use a flat directional antenna?

No go. The data for the set top box is transmitted to it via the same rg6 that provides the tv service.

As another guy suggested, rg11. But since i'mma fios tech, i can tell you in upstate NY anyway, we don't stock rg11 or the tools for it. So, you are on your own. You would need to find a tool and the rg11 online somewhere maybe and have at it yourself. I can ask around tomorrow and see if there is a better fix.

 

[CNGsaves]

Since OP you're a Fios tech, why not scavenge the bone pile at work to get FIBER leftovers to build LIFETIME connection to garage . .
. . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . FTTG . . . . . Fiber To The Garage !!!! . .

 

[Beemer533]

Since OP you're a Fios tech, why not scavenge the bone pile at work to get FIBER leftovers to build LIFETIME connection to garage . .
. . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . FTTG . . . . . Fiber To The Garage !!!! . .

OP isn't a FIOS tech, chrispyny is... I was thinking the same thing with the fiber, but then he would still have the same issue, just at the house instead of the garage ...

RG11 is probably his only real viable option..

 

[chrispyny]

Correct. The ONT accepts the fiber drop. The only way to get a fiber drop the 400' is to pay for a second bill and service to the 2nd building.

Edited to add:
If you think about it, residential and most business locations never have a 400' run from the ONT. who's got a house that big? Not me! The service just wasn't engineered to reach out that far. As far as i can think anywho....

 

[Zogman]

Thanks for the feedback guys. Chrispyny, I am unable to fish RG11 in the existing conduit. There are more than (4) 90 degree bends in the conduit run to the garage.

That being said, can I tap into the Ethernet port on the router and the transmit line of site to the building with microwave or whatever can transmit line of site and then split the coax & Ethernet at the garage???

 

[kart-racer]

I had a similar issue getting TV and internet to my garage.
What I did was ditch my Time Warner cable boxes and went with a Tivo setup, A Roamio DVR and 4 Tivo Minis.
The Tivo Minis do need a hardwire connection to your router. The bridge is essentially a hardwire connection.
With this setup I am able to send TV and Internet to my garage using a wireless bridge ( 2 Ubiquti NanoStation M5's )

One Nano plugs into the router in the house, the other into the switch in the garage. I have a Tivo Mini in the garage that plugs
into the switch for TV, and a Ubiquti Pico Station for wireless internet. I also have 2 IP cameras in the garage.
I have no problem watching TV, surfing the net, and streaming the cameras. All work fine over the bridge.
For the Tivo Roamio you would need to get a Cable Card from Verizon.

 

[Zogman]

Holy cow kart-racer, that sounds like some complicated **** but maybe I can pull this off. The cablecard goes into the main Tivo unit? Tivo connects to the Moca output via coax?? Do I still use the Verizon router in the house or do I get new that as well? Your talking about 3 technical pay grades above me here. Would you be able to message or email me a diagram?? Thanks a bunch.

 

[justsam]

You might consider leaving the STB back at the house, and send HDMI from it to the garage, via HDMI over your existing coax. Not sure how you were planning the control of the STB but if IP (I assume Fios has IP control of STB?) than that is how you would control the STB. Some extenders also have Ethernet capabilities.

I am not a Fios person, nor have I used this type of extender. I have used HDMI extenders over cat5 and that worked well.

 

[kctyphoon]

OP - i am not a fios tech, but i am a lineman for verizon.. would it be possible for you (maybe someone can verify this) to use some sort of coax signal booster/amplifier like this - http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000066E6Y/?tag=atomicindus08-20

ive never heard of this 400' foot rule, but i dont do installs so that maybe why.. BUT - cable companies's plant run for miles off coax, and they use amplifiers.. im thinking maybe this "could" be an option for you??

just becuase "verizon" doesnt stock certian things, doesnt mean there isnt a product to buy elswere.. im having a hard time accepting you would NEED a second fiber to your house, and another bill, if your install uses move than 400ft of coax - but like i stated - i dont do installs so i cant promise that.

but if you had to run another size coax into a this building of yours, and your saying you cant pull a new line because there are too many bends, an option is digging up the conduit at the halfway point, cut it open and pull 200' one direction, and then 200' in the other - or open it up leaving 2 bends on either side, regardless of distance.. theres always a way...

 

[Zogman]

KC, I asked the installing tech about such a booster and he said those amplifiers only amplify the video bandwidth. My video bandwidth is actually ok, it's data side that needs to be amplified.


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[kctyphoon]

KC, I asked the installing tech about such a booster and he said those amplifiers only amplify the video bandwidth. My video bandwidth is actually ok, it's data side that needs to be amplified.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

maybe you need a bidirectional amplifier?

 

[kart-racer]

Holy cow kart-racer, that sounds like some complicated **** but maybe I can pull this off. The cablecard goes into the main Tivo unit? Tivo connects to the Moca output via coax?? Do I still use the Verizon router in the house or do I get new that as well? Your talking about 3 technical pay grades above me here. Would you be able to message or email me a diagram?? Thanks a bunch.

Yes, a cable card is installed into the Tivo Roamio. The Roamio will have a coax connection as well as an ethernet connection to the Fios router.
You can then install a Ubiquti Nanostaion via ethernet to the router, and another Nanostaion in the garage. The Nanostation in the garage will feed into a switch where the Tivo Mini will plug into. This will give you hardware internet from the switch as well. The Nanostation do not need a clear line of site at that short distance. Mine are both inside behind several walls.

I retired from Verizon in 2012 as a Network Engineer, at that time there were no Moca compatable amps that worked with Fios. I have a call to some Friends still working in the So Cal area to see if they can recommend an Amp that will work with Moca.

 

[chrispyny]

I'm on vacation this week so getting info from my co workers is slow, but there is a booster available to boost the data signal to the set top box in your shop. It's called a NIM or something. I'm on standby for a make and model number for you. My guy i texted said he installed one at a hotel with 20+ set top boxes. It was a requirement for the DVR service to work ( data stream from router to set to box via rg6 ) . Stand by. If my guy doesn't get back to me today, I'll dig into it monday when i'm back at work .

 

[speedyone]

OP have you investigated using CAT6 with and Ethernet extender instead of coax? I have three of my fios boxes running on Ethernet cable. It is my understanding that with an Ethernet extender you could hit 400ft. Just a thought...good luck finding a solution.

 

[chrispyny]

OP have you investigated using CAT6 with and Ethernet extender instead of coax? I have three of my fios boxes running on Ethernet cable. It is my understanding that with an Ethernet extender you could hit 400ft. Just a thought...good luck finding a solution.

His set top box requires a rg6 connection for tv.

 

[speedyone]

I'm using fios set top boxes for tv with Ethernet The fios boxes that are using Ethernet are the Arris ipc1100. I have three of them using Ethernet and two dvrs that required coax.

 

[kart-racer]

I'm on vacation this week so getting info from my co workers is slow, but there is a booster available to boost the data signal to the set top box in your shop. It's called a NIM or something. I'm on standby for a make and model number for you. My guy i texted said he installed one at a hotel with 20+ set top boxes. It was a requirement for the DVR service to work ( data stream from router to set to box via rg6 ) . Stand by. If my guy doesn't get back to me today, I'll dig into it monday when i'm back at work .

The NIM might work if he can find someone that still has one. I believe they are not used or carried by Verizon any longer.

 

[Zogman]

Thanks guys. That info would be great Chris!!! Speedy, my house is wired for coax and the ONT works in either Coax or Ethernet, not both at once. I had asked the tech if we could run the shop off of the Ethernet port on the ONT and he said it was not possible. Lots of great info here. Much appreciated!!!

 

[justsam]

Verizon is scheduled to release a "wireless client", the Arris IPC-2200 this fall. I have no idea if this is on schedule or not.

You would need to have a robust WiFi signal in the area of use, which you should be able to deliver via your existing coax.

 

[speedyone]

Thanks guys. That info would be great Chris!!! Speedy, my house is wired for coax and the ONT works in either Coax or Ethernet, not both at once. I had asked the tech if we could run the shop off of the Ethernet port on the ONT and he said it was not possible. Lots of great info here. Much appreciated!!!

Zogman, could you run coax to the fios router and then Ethernet from there? That is the way mine is set up. Coax from ONT to 2 Fios dvrs and the Fios router. Then from the Fios router I ran Ethernet to my switches, computers and 3 Arris 1100 Fios boxes for TVs. So I have 2 TVs running off coax and 3 TVs running off Ethernet. That being said if you can find the NIM it sounds like a simple solution for you.

 

[Zogman]

Speedy, that is how I am set up right now. Coax out of the ONT to the Verizon Red band router. Ethernet to a couple computers and Coax from the ONT to my DVR and 2 set top boxes. I think I have an Ethernet line running from the Router to close proximity to the out line from the house to the garage Cat5 cable. What kind of switch or device would I need on both ends to make this work? Thanks

 

[justsam]

Do you already have the Fios Quantum system?
If so than the Arris apc 1100 is a client off of this.
You just need to get reliable Ethernet out to the garage. I would use any MOCA (media over coax) to do this. Look at Dualcomm, Actiontec, Netgear, etc. This will be a self contained end to end Ethernet delivery system and you do not need to concern yourself with MOCA incompatibility issue.

So.. router ethernet to MOCA, MOCA to coax, coax to MOCA, Ethernet to Arris APC. APC to TV via HDMI

 

[Zogman]

I do not know if I have the Quantum system Sam but I'll check into it. But I'm struggling with your layout because it does not seem right. If I understand right, MoCa is the output of the ONT (Coax) MOCA means Multimedia over Coax. What is Moca to Coax in your explanation? should be the same. And Moca is the output of the ONT. Ethernet does not go to MOCA (Coax) and if yes, how? Thanks

 

[kctyphoon]

i spoke with a few installers this morning.. they suggested 2 things.. the first being to relocate your fiber ONT somewhere midway between your two bulidings.. i suppose you could just install a simple post, or something with a backboard and overhang (like a tourist info station), or even something like a doghouse - whatever.. this way it would balance the load on the ONT and you would be well within the threshold of coax (and yes they confirmed the long run will have major loss, - i just install poles so what do i know) everyone agreed this is your best option, and everything else might just be trial and error to see what works for you. im thining if you called verizon and told them you needed to have your equipment reloctated for a service quailty issue they can do this for you but i have no idea if you would need to pay anything. (assuming you provided everything they would need proir to them coming) extending the fiber to a different location might be a simple tail replacement, or they can just fuse an extension onto your existing service line.

the second suggestion is to keep your current set up, but you would need to also run a cat5 line from the ONT to your new building, and have your data run off the cat5 with a repeater, and coax to run your video.. the way he explained it is you would run both the coax and cat5 to this repeater, and low pass filter would be intalled on the coax before the repeater to essentially block the data on that line. the repeater would then combine the data from the cat5 and video from the coax, and they would leave on a single coax line to your box.

he went to the supply room and handed this repeater (which is also an amplifier i think) to me, and i honestly didnt even think to open the box and take a picture of it - i just handed it back and said "ok thanks for the info".. he also said thats this is just a solution using whats available to them at our compnay, and there might be something else you can just buy online that would do the same thing without using cat5.. he said most coax amplifiers just amplify video and not data.. when i mentioned a bidirectional amp, he didnt know what it was of how it works (neither do i)..

this might not be the best fourm to get different ideas - your situation might be more suited to a telco/data online forum.. hope this helps, good luck.

 

[kctyphoon]

http://www.veracityglobal.com/products/ethernet-over-coax-devices/highwire.aspx

read the applications..

 

[ltusler]

Use the existing coax as a pull wire and lube up the new RG11 and pull a 6 strand indoor/outdoor 50/125 fiber at the same time.

 

[justsam]

I am not a Fios user or expert but it was my understanding that the ARRIS 1100-ACP is a client component to the Quantum system. As such I assume it is IP based and just needs a robust Ethernet connection to function properly.

There has to be a wired Ethernet port someplace either on the ONT or router. This would connect to the Ethernet/coax adapter at the house, and then the other end would be the coax to Ethernet which would connect to your ARRIS client, and client HDMI to TV.

Sounds like that is what SpeedyOne has in place.

 

[MasterOod]

tl;dr - get a quantum setup if you can and an Ethernet extender, if you can't get quantum read on:

Ok, so in a "former life" I worked for Verizon before FiOS had a name. Back then we only had only two test beds, and were still calling it FTTP in press releases. (Fiber-to-the-Premises).

The data signal for the non-quantum STB's can be integral (when all data is run on the ONT's coax connection, often called the MoCA port) or injected (when the customer's data is run via ethernet, the MoCA port on the Verizon provided router, not the ONT, injects the data signal for the non-quantum STB's.) Quantum adds a new wrinkle, as the quantum client STB's can run via Ethernet only.

If you qualify for quantum, forget the older STB's and get an Ethernet extender and run an arris 1100-acp in the garage, you'll only need a powerful Ethernet signal. Any of the commercially available CAT5e or CAT6 amps (Ethernet extenders) will work for this.

If you can't get quantum at your location, there is another solution. However, current generation RF amps won't cut it.

If you choose to be an "injected" install (Ethernet for data) you can locate the verizon provided router (with MoCA bridge) in such a way that it splits the 400' distance. Since the router is now injecting the MoCA data stream onto the coax, the distance from the ONT becomes irrelevant. If poor wifi performance is a concern, just disable the WiFi on the Verizon provided router and use a different, high power access point.

A NIM (network interface module) was what we used for the first two years or so of FTTP/FiOS TV, before MoCA bridges were available integrated into routers. Once MoCA integrated routers were rolled out, NIM's became a hot commodity.

I still run a NIM, as I don't have a verizon provided router at all: I'm Ethernet to my own router and manage my entire network manually. I would strongly recommend AGAINST this path, as simple features like remote management of the DVR will become complex exercises in IP network management.

 

[speedyone]

Master0od explained the setup well. I am using the Fios Quantum system with just a standard switch. Zogman in addition to the switch you would need an extender as described by Master0od.

 

[Slednut]

I would use the cat5 to pull in a multi-mode pre-terminated 6 fiber. With fiber you can buy media converters to do what you want. The converters are getting cheaper every day and are very reliable.

The problem is if it ever gets dug up or damaged and you don’t have the equipment or know how to splice it the cable would have to be replaced.

 

[kctyphoon]

Here's the best option - call verizon and have them send out a tech to make it work.. probelm solved.

 

[TheBadDog]

Very little help, particularly with the Verizon FIOS system, but I have a similar problem with my shop. Roughly 100' between main house and shop/guest-house. Pool deck and other obstacles prevent convenient run of hard wire. And I want to move my work office out there, which requires at the very least reliable 150 M/s download and about half that upload (minimum! really need at least twice that). So not really enthusiastic about wireless. I even checked into a second drop from Cox, but that proved price prohibitive for the same "can't get there from here" problems. But, I did find an 8 pair old school Telco wire in 1/2" conduit that's no longer needed. It pulls really hard, but I'm hoping to use the existing 8 pair to pull CAT-6 through the conduit. Probably with a wireless router (for general phone/tablet convenience) acting as booster at each end, and a CAT-6 hard line run another ~50' to the office space and to the guest house about 20' past that. That should cover my data needs for work requirements, and allow at least streaming of video for the guest house.

My biggest concern is whether I can get the CAT6 through the conduit, and of course multiple points of failure to deal with. But I'm going to give it a shot when things cool down.

If that fails, I'll probably do a wireless PtP directional system to achieve the best I can, and hope it's good enough. I keep delaying it hoping technology on such things will improve enough to get 1G speeds over directional wireless, but in the consumer range it just doesn't seem to be getting there any time soon.

Good luck!

 

[Zogman]

Here's the best option - call verizon and have them send out a tech to make it work.. probelm solved.

Sorry KC but I had a Verizon tech on-site terminating the Bridge at the garage to the ONT and he said Verizon does not have any solutions for this. He was on the phone with his supervisor multiple times. That's why I'm here looking for out of the box solutions.

 

[Zogman]

http://www.veracityglobal.com/products/ethernet-over-coax-devices/highwire.aspx

read the applications..

KC, so if I read the application of this item correctly, my ONT goes to my router in the house via coax. Then Ethernet to the highwire that exits the house to the coax. Coax then goes to the garage to another highwire. Highwire then to a switch via Ethernet. Then Ethernet to a wifi router for the data solution. My question then is how do I get TV to the STB since the STB box Ethernet port is not active??? I like this option but am unsure of the TV termination. Thanks