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Home AC advice

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elcom

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Jacob,

In general, I agree with your assessment.
The two systems together (5 + 4 ton) were $24k.

To be fair to the contractor, I am not sure that cooling was perfect with the old system(s). It was better than the current state and the systems were 21 years old (actually, the outside compressor/condenser unit was only 14 years old). However, I had some questions and that was one of the reasons that I specifically requested that a manual J be performed. It is possible that the old system was slightly under-sized. Therefore, I wanted to explore increasing to a 5 ton.

We have not discussed charges for converting 4 ton to 5 ton. The retail difference in price is ~$750 according to the contractor.

The question remains: given the sensible load with the largest XV20i system that the contractor can install is rated at 41,000 sensible load btu/h but 42,443 are required, is installing the larger system sufficient? Or must I agree to a third system?

1) I don't know if 1443/42443 (just over 3% of sensible load) is significant.
2) Will the new unit be sufficient if we don't cool the attic (3rd floor)?

The attic/3rd floor total load = 11,595 and sensible load = 10,006. There is insulation between the 2nd and 3rd floor. Per the contractor, the 42,443 btu/h sensible load calculation for the 2nd floor assumes a cooled attic (at least the 500 sq feet finished space). Is this significant? If so, am I stuck with a third system?
 
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jacob_coulter

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Jacob,

In general, I agree with your assessment.
The two systems together (5 + 4 ton) were $24k.

To be fair to the contractor, I am not sure that cooling was perfect with the old system(s). It was better than the current state and the systems were 21 years old (actually, the outside compressor/condenser unit was only 14 years old). However, I had some questions and that was one of the reasons that I specifically requested that a manual J be performed. It is possible that the old system was slightly under-sized. Therefore, I wanted to explore increasing to a 5 ton.

We have not discussed charges for converting 4 ton to 5 ton. The retail difference in price is ~$750 according to the contractor.

Regardless if the old system was ideal or not, that's his responsibility to figure out the right equipment. That's sort of like saying you can't get too upset at your new roof that leaks because the old one did also. It would be one thing if you "overruled" what he recommended and you're now having issues, but that's not what is happening here. Someone who's installing that level of equipment shouldn't just be going off what the previous guy put in and calling it a day.

If he's willing to swap the unit from a 4 to 5 ton for the price you would have paid for a 5 ton anyway and covering all the labor for the exchange, that's not a horrible solution. I will say though a "better" contractor would have at the very least met you in the middle on the difference or even better made it right on his dime for the HUGE amount of money you spent with him and the fact you're having to deal with his screw up, but that's probably a whole different discussion.

I think upgrading from 4 to 5 tons is probably the easiest solution assuming there wasn't something they did wrong on the installation.
 

danski0224

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Pictures of ducts and systems attached...

Your duct system is a hack and slap flex job. There is no way, no how, that it is capable of moving 3 tons of air (1200 cfm), much less 4 or 5 tons of air (1600 and 2000 crfm respectively).

Your old blower motor was incapable of delivering the required airflow and hit the static pressure ceiling quickly.

The new one, being variable speed, is a completely different animal.

It will spin up to the set parameters and attempt to deliver the set CFM. Unlike the old fan motor, this one will pull more amps to spin up the RPM's.

However, it too will hit a static pressure ceiling and airflow will drop off.

What is the installed TESP (Total External Static Pressure)? Most residential furnaces are rated for 0.5" of water column. Once the TESP goes above that, airflow actually goes down. I see (1) media type air filter with what looks like a 4" filter (the 20x25 General Filter 6" thick accordion style media is far better), and that alone will bust your TESP ceiling.

Does the contractor know what TESP is?

Note that you need (2) filters (2 sides or one side+bottom) for "5 ton" airflow (2000 cfm). Says so right in the instructions for the furnace.

Your system is likely moving more air than the old one simply due to how a variable speed fan works, so it is also sucking in more hot attic air at the unsealed flex connections and register boot openings. This kills system efficiency- the AC isn't designed to cool 130*F attic air.

But it isn't moving enough air for the requirements of the system.

With some airflow and wet bulb/enthalpy readings at the equipment, total capacity can be determined.

If your return air temperature at the unit is higher than the return air temperature at the register(s), then you have duct leakage and poor insulation. Same goes for the supply ducts. What is the temperature near the evaporator coil and the temperature at the registers? You really shouldn't use a non-contact IR temperature probe for this- digital air probe.

I could almost guarantee you that if you go to a 5 ton system, performance will be worse if the ductwork is not addressed.

Yes, there are different size/capacity evaporator coils that are generically called "X ton coils". You really have to get into the specs for that. One manufacturer has model numbers with xxx60xxx for the standard "5 ton" coil and xxx61xxx for the bigger one.

So-called high efficiency equipment must be installed 100% properly to get the claimed efficiency and for it to work properly. The crowd shouting "the old one worked" obviously do not understand the new stuff. The old equipment still had the same general ratio of sensible to latent capacity and same general overall capacity as the new stuff. An "old" "5 ton" coil didn't deliver 60k btu of sensible capacity either.

With a variable speed drive fan attached to restrictive ductwork and filters, you are spending more. The amp draw tells all. High VS motor amp draw also leads to early (and expensive) failure.

Update:

1) I have quotes from insulation (~$5,600) to insulate the attic. Not sure that I understand that quote because they are talking about insulating ~3300 square feet. Attempting to clarify. In addition, they are suggesting attic vents to be installed by a roofer. They "do not believe in any kind of radiant barrier."

2) Quotes from Window World to upgrade all windows in the house to double pane. I have verified that all current windows are single pane. I am told that current building codes require at least double pane in Houston. However, my house was built in 1994-5, under previous building codes. This would cost approximately $21,000 for the entire house ($8,000 for the upstairs and $13,000 for the downstairs). The solar heat gain coefficient on the windows is 0.19-0.21 (depending on the grid pattern, if any) and the u value is 0.28.

Although they are very expensive, I am leaning toward the window replacement plan as they offer additional benefits (e.g., quieter, less UV-related fade on furniture, etc.).

3) The contractor found a 5 ton configuration that would provide a sensible load capacity of 41,000 which he tells me is likely higher than my old 4 ton. His analysis:

- From the Load requirements, and the pre-existing disconnect box the whole home was intended to have 3 system.
- No two systems are capable of satisfying the demand of the whole home as is.
- My understanding is that you've been able to have "livable" 76ish degree 2nd floor air for 10+ years.
- Since installing our system my understanding is that your hope has been to reach closer to 72 degrees.
- 75 degrees at 50% relative humidity is the set point for average human comfort.
- Current Sensible Capacity on your current 4 ton XV is 35,200
- The highest sensible capacity available on any 4 ton within Trane's current line across all efficiencies is 38,000. Likely at or higher than the capacity of your previous system.
- The highest sensible available on an XV20 5 ton is around 41,000
- This is a higher capacity than your previous 4 ton was capable.
- Still, we are short of the design conditions to satisfy fully by about ~1,400 CFM
- I am willing to replace the 4 ton with a 5 ton XV which will be better than the previous system but still short of ideal without modifying the load via, improved windows, insulation etc.

Should I accept the swap of the 4 ton for a higher-capacity 5 ton?

If you are adding powered attic ventilation, that will make your problem much, much worse.

Fancy windows are mostly a sham. You will see the biggest benefit on South and West exposures due to solar gain if energy savings are the goal. Otherwise, you are throwing good money after bad. I'd price out UV tinting of your existing S and W windows if they are in otherwise good shape.

There is a big difference between 76 degrees and 72 degrees. AC systems are rated at 77*F indoor temps. If you really want to hit 72, then you may really need a 3rd system, or foam the attic.

I'd revamp the ductwork before spending a penny on windows or foam.

Yes, I saw the Manual J numbers earlier in the thread. Yes, your rated system capacity is under the design load... but it was short before. That hasn't changed. You would need to provide model numbers for the old equipment and find someone bored enough to research the condenser, evaporator and blower engineering data to determine the *rated* (not actual) capacity that you had with the old equipment. Having the old TESP number and blower setting would also be interesting.

I would make doubly+ sure that the condensers are wired properly (low voltage wiring) and the correct switch/jumper settings are on the furnace board if you have two stage or other fancy compressors. This also includes thermostat settings/wiring. I am not intimately familiar with Trane equipment, especially the high end stuff. That said, it may need Trane thermostats to function properly. I have seen more than one high end system that was not set up properly. All of the details are in the installation and operation manuals.

Manual J also has a fudge factor built-in. A 1400 btu shortfall should not be an issue.




WTF is up with the VigLinks? I didn't add spam links to my post.
 
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ford33

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I would check with Trane directly. Just because the contractor states he is in contact with them doesn't mean that he is telling the truth. Go directly to Trane.
 
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elcom

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Wow danski0224, thanks!
This is far beyond my expertise, but I will find a (polite) way to ask the contractor to address the points that you raise prior to swapping systems.
 

danski0224

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Wow danski0224, thanks!
This is far beyond my expertise, but I will find a (polite) way to ask the contractor to address the points that you raise prior to swapping systems.

Swapping systems will be a bust until the ductwork is straightened out.

You need a minimum of 24" diameter flex to move 2000 CFM in a residential system or about 450 square inches of flex duct. Round metal duct would be 20".

All joints need to be sealed with mastic to the metal collar/boot and all boots need to be foamed to the ceiling/wall.

The furnace doors need to have gaskets.

The air filter door needs to have a gasket- and you need (2) 20x25 filters to pass 2000 cfm at a low enough FPM (velocity) to keep the static pressure low enough.

Ideally, the furnace should be in an enclosed and insulated room- in conditioned space.

I'd rework the ducting to move 2000 cfm and see what happens before replacing equipment.
 

Mike007

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I'd of called TRANE already, if I spent $24K and it didn't work!

In my experience, they would just refer you back to the installer. They make the equipment, they are not sizing and designing the duct system.
 
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elcom

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Update...

Spoke to contractor as per advice on this forum, decided to separate the insulation/widow discussion from the AC discussion. I will look for information about replacement windows (vinyl frame vs. fiberglass vs. wood, etc.)... This is a complex topic in and of itself.

I raised concerns re: ducts raised by danski0224. Contractor said that the duct capacity is 2400 cfm -- more than sufficient for the 5 ton. I specifically mentioned TESP (Total External Static Pressure). Contractor said that this is only relevant if we were starting from scratch. Since we have ducts in place and are not planning to replace all of them, a full manual D is not applicable. I did not try to force him into a discussion of replacing all of the ducts.

Contractor proposes to replace the 4 ton with the 5 ton and see how things go. If there are still issues, we can get into adjusting the ducts. He wants to charge me the difference in equipment price between the 4 and 5 ton -- amount unspecified.

He said that efficiency will not be a problem since duct capacity is more than sufficient for the 5 ton.

I am inclined to proceed with his suggestion.

To be fair, temperatures have regularly exceeded 100 degrees. Not surprising that a 4 ton unit is only able to cool to ~81. I would think that the 5 ton unit is likely to be able to cool to the 75 inside when 96 outside standard.
 

AndyCBR

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Update...

Spoke to contractor as per advice on this forum, decided to separate the insulation/widow discussion from the AC discussion. I will look for information about replacement windows (vinyl frame vs. fiberglass vs. wood, etc.)... This is a complex topic in and of itself.

I raised concerns re: ducts raised by danski0224. Contractor said that the duct capacity is 2400 cfm -- more than sufficient for the 5 ton. I specifically mentioned TESP (Total External Static Pressure). Contractor said that this is only relevant if we were starting from scratch. Since we have ducts in place and are not planning to replace all of them, a full manual D is not applicable. I did not try to force him into a discussion of replacing all of the ducts.

Contractor proposes to replace the 4 ton with the 5 ton and see how things go. If there are still issues, we can get into adjusting the ducts. He wants to charge me the difference in equipment price between the 4 and 5 ton -- amount unspecified.

He said that efficiency will not be a problem since duct capacity is more than sufficient for the 5 ton.

I am inclined to proceed with his suggestion.

To be fair, temperatures have regularly exceeded 100 degrees. Not surprising that a 4 ton unit is only able to cool to ~81. I would think that the 5 ton unit is likely to be able to cool to the 75 inside when 96 outside standard.


If the contractor is only going to charge you the cost difference between a 4 ton and 5 ton I would move forward. If he would have figured a 5 ton from the get go you certainly would have paid for it. Whether he should have figured the 5 ton from the get go or not is water under the bridge at this point.

As long as he doesn't claim the price difference is something out of line it sounds like he is holding up his end of the deal.
 

danski0224

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Update...

I raised concerns re: ducts raised by danski0224. Contractor said that the duct capacity is 2400 cfm -- more than sufficient for the 5 ton. I specifically mentioned TESP (Total External Static Pressure). Contractor said that this is only relevant if we were starting from scratch. Since we have ducts in place and are not planning to replace all of them, a full manual D is not applicable. I did not try to force him into a discussion of replacing all of the ducts.

Contractor proposes to replace the 4 ton with the 5 ton and see how things go. If there are still issues, we can get into adjusting the ducts. He wants to charge me the difference in equipment price between the 4 and 5 ton -- amount unspecified.

He said that efficiency will not be a problem since duct capacity is more than sufficient for the 5 ton.

I am inclined to proceed with his suggestion.

To be fair, temperatures have regularly exceeded 100 degrees. Not surprising that a 4 ton unit is only able to cool to ~81. I would think that the 5 ton unit is likely to be able to cool to the 75 inside when 96 outside standard.


Based upon your pictures- hogwash on 2400 cfm ductwork.

TESP *is* applicable and relevant.

Your furnace is equipped with a fan rated at 0.5" water column TESP.

If you are above that number, your fan is (1) moving less air and (2) your variable speed fan will attempt to overcome restrictive ductwork but it will draw more power to do so until it hits the ceiling. Any of this can be verified by looking at the CFM charts in the I&O manual.

If your contractor is so confident that the ductwork will move 2400 cfm, then there should be no issue doing a 5 minute TESP reading at the air moving equipment. No muss, no fuss. He should be literally jumping at the chance to prove you wrong and him right... and knock you over trying to get to the furnace to drill those 2 holes and insert the probes. :lol_hitti

Ideally, the TESP should be at 0.5" wc, but up to 0.8" could be considered acceptable with a VS fan drive.

If the ducting can really handle 2400 cfm, then your TESP reading will be low- below 0.5" at 1600 cfm delivered.

If the TESP reading is above 0.5" with your "2400 cfm ductwork" then your contractor is full of it.

A TESP reading at the equipment should be standard practice in a diagnostic process.

If your current fan speed is set for 4 tons (400 cfm/ton- 1600 cfm) and you have 0.8" wc TESP, you will have considerably more TESP at 2000 cfm with the same ductwork. This means less airflow and less airflow equals fewer btu per hour- lower output despite more tonnage.

TESP and watts (HP) increases ^3 (cube function) compared to CFM.

I see one (1) return flex (img_0667) and it sure in the heck doesn't look anything like 24" flex- which is what is needed to move 2000 cfm of air.

I also see one (1) media filter with what looks like a 4" filter cartridge. Even at 20" x 25", it isn't enough. You will be over 0.5" TESP with a clean filter- much less one that is used a little. The size looks like 16" x 25" because it isn't bigger than the furnace cabinet.

Review your I&O manual, and you will see that a side and bottom return opening is mandatory for 2000 cfm.

If your contractor isn't doing anything to the ductwork and filters, the equipment is not being installed properly, resulting in reduced performance.

I would sure in the hell do a 5 minute test and drill 2 holes before spending a couple of G's on equipment at his cost and free labor..... :lol_hitti
 
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danski0224

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I agree. And it's not rocket science.

Maybe not rocket science, but it can get technical when there are problems that need diagnostics and not guesses.

Especially when people want/demand stuff for free from tradesmen... and doctors seem to get a pass on their screwups and misdiagnoses.
 

Mike007

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Maybe not rocket science, but it can get technical when there are problems that need diagnostics and not guesses.

Especially when people want/demand stuff for free from tradesmen... and doctors seem to get a pass on their screwups and misdiagnoses.

My rocket science comment was referring to checking the esp. As you pointed out, it takes minutes to set up and it will definitively answer the CFM question.
 

chops101

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I can only add that I have similar setups/ similar SF with similar temps.

I have two Tranes, 4T upstairs, 5T downstairs, variable speed dual stage compressors (XL18i). Overall SF ~4600. 22' ceiling in common area and lots of windows. It gets hot here too. When the 2nd stages on both units kick in, it takes care of business in very short order. 1st stage "maintenance" modes (what I call them anyway) with low speeds are great, you can barely hear these things run.

I doubt going from 4T to 5T will do anything for you. There appears to be something deeper going on...When your units are going wide open, are the Y2 LEDs blinking, and/or are you sure the Hi Stage contactor/relay is engaged??
Your units' low stages are about 2-2.5 T each.
 
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mbrew

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Upstairs: return 75-76 (two returns), supply 57-81 degrees depending on the vent (there are >15 vents on the second floor). 70-81 in the vents in the master bedroom alone.

1)

4) I was told that the temperature drop across the coil was 17 degrees and that the goal was 15-20.

11 to 24 degree differences between ducts is concerning. How are you getting supply temps that are 5 degrees above return temps? These are just the start of the questions that come to mind and they really have to be answered. You will never hit a 75 set point if you have supply air as high as 81 degrees. If you have 75 to 76 degree return air from both returns and a a 17 degree drop across the coils you should be cold. What was the outside air temp when you took your readings?
 
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elcom

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Update...

Yesterday and today, the contractor replaced the 4 ton upstairs unit with a 5 ton. Took two days and there was no upstairs AC overnight. I noticed that with the downstairs unit running, the upstairs was pretty tolerable at night; not as tolerable during the day. It helped somewhat that the outdoor temperatures have been down a few degrees.

The contractor also rearranged the ducts and cut off the third floor. So far, the changes do not seem to have made any difference, but its only been a few hours and the contractor is coming out tomorrow AM to check why the cooling has not improved.

I must say, after a month of this, I am getting a bit frustrated.

Will post another update after tomorrow's contractor visit...
 
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magicrat

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Wow danski I do hvac as well but i would not call myself a "master"...Once in awhile I have to call an older friend and get outside info or opinion. By your post u seem to have a complete and true understanding of all things hvac....kuddos to u for mastering your trade....Im still on my way
 
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elcom

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Update...

Tech came out today and found that the 5 ton unit that replaced the 4 ton unit (both XV20i) was low on refrigerant. No good explanation why a unit that was just charged yesterday should be low on refrigerant. Per tech, the system held vacuum when installed yesterday.

In any case, filled to spec with 410a and seems to be doing better with no new insulation or windows.

Currently, outdoor temperature reading per unit is 95 downstairs and 99 upstairs.
With the downstairs unit set to 78 (indoor downstairs temp is 76) and upstairs unit set to 70 (just to test the system), the indoor temperature upstairs is 79.

The vent temperatures were 57-70 upstairs.

Not sure if better airflow would improve things further.
 

LS6 Tommy

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Update...

Tech came out today and found that the 5 ton unit that replaced the 4 ton unit (both XV20i) was low on refrigerant. No good explanation why a unit that was just charged yesterday should be low on refrigerant. Per tech, the system held vacuum when installed yesterday.

I must have said this five times or more now and I can't say it any louder.

YOU CANNOT LEAK CHECK WITH VACUUM!!

:deadhorse

BTW, sorry to say it, but that Octupus duct setup is idicative of a low buck installation.

Tommy
 
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elcom

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Not sure that I understand the statement "you cannot leak check with vacuum" -- isn't that the point of maintaining vacuum for 30 minutes (or even longer)?

My understanding is that the "octopus duct setup" was reduced by cutting off the third floor.
 

CNGsaves

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OP . . . . your incompetent Trane guy. . . . . SHOULD . . . . have told you up front that ductwork was weak link to start.

He keeps giving you excuse after excuse why he can't make it work. He's happy as he's got your $24K . . . . while he's wasted $5K of your time with frustration after frustration of it not working.
I'd be thoroughly pissed if I were you.

Pulling ductwork from 3rd floor is another HACK move to band-aid fix what he should have figured out in the first place.

Listen to Danski0224 . . . . . ductwork is inadequate. Get an EXPERT in ductwork sizing to come out and give you the real skinny. I'd guess you're at 25% leakage or more. :sad: You're cooling that attic basically. You NEED ductwork improvements (ie upsizing) along with leak sealing and better insulation on duct trunks. Other GJ advice to spend money on ductwork (before windows) is spot on. That wimpy "foil insulation" is simply not adequate in your hot/humid environment. Good luck.
 
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danski0224

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A micron gauge is used to determine whether or not the vacuum is good and to specs.

Running the vacuum pump for "30 minutes" or until an indicated 30" is not good. It is an old "rule of thumb" or AKA hack method.

The I&O manual will list a micron spec, not an inches of mercury or time spec.

Your variation of 57-70 degree outlet temperatures is a key indicator of ductwork problems.

Without knowing the TESP of any of your installed configurations, it is difficult to speculate further. As I mentioned before, the installing technician should have no issues performing the test, but I suspect that he does not know how to do so.

While I will not dismiss that the "4 ton" system may have not been adequate, you are still not operating correctly, despite any cooling improvements you are experiencing. You are still spending a dollar and getting maybe 60 cents out, to put it in perspective.

But, if that's good enough for you, that's great :)

A HVAC system can give the appearance of operating, but it can be operating quite inefficiently. It is difficult to convey that to typical homeowners that want to solve the problems with bigger equipment. It is also difficult to measure and quantify, but it can be done.
 

danski0224

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Get an EXPERT in ductwork sizing to come out and give you the real skinny. I'd guess you're at 25% leakage or more.

I have done a couple of ductwork leakage to the outdoors tests, and 30% is more likely in my experience. This test takes a bunch of time, equipment and skill.

Leakage in the return kills system efficiency by raising the return temperature and humidity (plus added dust infiltration).

Leakage in the supply cools the attic.

It is a difficult problem to fix post-construction.

It is also important to note that one can have poorly flowing but well sealed ductwork. Leakage tests do not account for good design.
 

LS6 Tommy

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Not sure that I understand the statement "you cannot leak check with vacuum" -- isn't that the point of maintaining vacuum for 30 minutes (or even longer)?

My understanding is that the "octopus duct setup" was reduced by cutting off the third floor.

There is no instructional info that says "maintain a vacuum for 30 minutes" for stationary A/C. There used to be similar instructions for mobile A/C repair. Each manufacturer will state how deep of a vacuum they require in microns. Any decent school or training center will tell you you leak check under pressure with dehydrated nitrogen, then evacuate the system. You can't just finish the line set and hook up the vacuum pump. The OP's situation shows exactly why. The "tech" pulled a vacuum, monitored it for **:** time, saw no leaks and came back the next day to find a loss of charge. A vacuum can and will hold small leaks closed.

Whether the octopus was reduced in size or not, the fact that it was there in the first place indicates a low buck, "get in and out as quick as possible" install. It shows a lack of quality. You should never have more than 20' of flex anyway.

Tommy
 
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Brian_WK

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There is no instructional info that says "maintain a vacuum for 30 minutes" for stationary A/C. There used to be similar instructions for mobile A/C repair. Each manufacturer will state how deep of a vacuum they require in microns. Any decent school or training center will tell you you leak check under pressure with dehydrated nitrogen, then evacuate the system. You can't just finish the line set and hook up the vacuum pump. The OP's situation shows exactly why. The "tech" pulled a vacuum, monitored it for **:** time, saw no leaks and came back the next day to find a loss of charge. A vacuum can and will hold small leaks closed.

Whether the octopus was reduced in size or not, the fact that it was there in the first place indicates a low buck, "get in and out as quick as possible" install. It shows a lack of quality. You should never have more than 20' of flex anyway.

Tommy

What Tommy said!
No matter how deep the vacuum you are only creating a 14.696 psi (atmospheric pressure) pressure on a leak pushing IN to the line, not OUT like the correct 150 psi dry nitrogen leak test.

Brian
 

Lassen Forge

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Not sure that I understand the statement "you cannot leak check with vacuum" -- isn't that the point of maintaining vacuum for 30 minutes (or even longer)?

My understanding is that the "octopus duct setup" was reduced by cutting off the third floor.

No. The reason to pull 30 minutes of vacuum is to make sure the moisture is boiled out of the system. Period. If he didn't do a pressurized leak test first, he's blowing smoke, because you cannot find or detect a leak under vacuum. But that's already been said. Twice.

No matter how deep the vacuum you are only creating a 14.696 psi (atmospheric pressure) pressure on a leak pushing IN to the line, not OUT like the correct 150 psi dry nitrogen leak test.

Ding ding ding ding!! Winner Winner Chicken Dinner.

Danski knows what he's talking about - seriously spot on. We had the same issue with a system in our (my ex and I) old house in Sacramento... the 25 year old system had given up the ghost, our Carrier guy came out, said we had **way** too much AC for the house and the pressure was holding it back, trying to force too much into a system that couldn't handle it. We went down IIRC a ton and a half capacity, he replaced the flexiduct that was there before with regular hardside AC ducting... and also tied in our guest room in the basement.

Before, we could keep the house reasonably cool, and it wasn't bad. When the guy was finished with the reinstall, we could turn our house darn near into a walk-in fridge. And most of the windows were old 1920's era single pane.

If I were you, I'd put the $$ into good ductwork (and get the refrigerant leak fixed by someone who knows what he's doing) before I'd do the windows. For 24+ large, you should also have a fridge, not frustration.
 
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elcom

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Thank you for the explanations, make sense that pressure testing is better than vacuum to identify leaks. To be fair, I don't know that they did not pressure test. The tech that came out yesterday just mentioned the vacuum test.

To address previous postings -- I am quite frustrated. I knew almost nothing about HVAC prior to this adventure and now consider myself fairly well-educated for a consumer. i can wire a thermostat, change a breaker, etc. Obviously, not at a professional tech or installer level. However, I don't think that that level of expertise should be required of a customer.

I did ask the contractor to address ducts, but he seemed reluctant.

He suggested that I "live with it" for a couple of weeks and reassess. I am willing to do that since comfort is no longer an issue.
 

danski0224

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What Tommy said!
No matter how deep the vacuum you are only creating a 14.696 psi (atmospheric pressure) pressure on a leak pushing IN to the line, not OUT like the correct 150 psi dry nitrogen leak test.

Brian

The other problem is that almost none of the standard HVAC gauges and hoses are vacuum rated, and they do leak.

Just about the only way to do it right is to pull the Schraders and use flared soft copper (or special flexible stainless steel lines) to the micron gauge and vacuum pump without using the manifold gauge. There are tools available that allow the installation of the Schrader core later.

There is also a benefit with using larger diameter hoses, and at least one company makes vacuum rated hoses that are 3/8" ID with 1/4" flared ends.

One finds out about flaws in equipment when using a precision micron gauge, and it can be maddening to chase down phantom leaks.
 

danski0224

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I did ask the contractor to address ducts, but he seemed reluctant.

Have him start with a TESP reading..... before doing anything else.

Just for S&G's, do one reading with the evaporator coil wet and one with it dry. Turn off the compressor at the circuit breaker but use AC on the thermostat for both tests so that the fan speed stays the same.

:evil:
 
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Trey T

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Thank you for the explanations, make sense that pressure testing is better than vacuum to identify leaks. To be fair, I don't know that they did not pressure test. The tech that came out yesterday just mentioned the vacuum test.

To address previous postings -- I am quite frustrated. I knew almost nothing about HVAC prior to this adventure and now consider myself fairly well-educated for a consumer. i can wire a thermostat, change a breaker, etc. Obviously, not at a professional tech or installer level. However, I don't think that that level of expertise should be required of a customer.

I did ask the contractor to address ducts, but he seemed reluctant.

He suggested that I "live with it" for a couple of weeks and reassess. I am willing to do that since comfort is no longer an issue.
If you believe the air duct is the problem, I would get the Trane tech to come and assess your home, like someone mentioned.

There's no such thing as "live with it" for couple of weeks when it comes to modern HVAC, it either cool/heat or not w/in several hrs, even in Houston summer weather. I've serviced enough AC to understand this.

For the amount of money you put in, it would have paid to have a HVAC engineer to design your system and a commercial/industrial technician to install it.
 

Mike007

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To the OP, don't give up on this. I don't know that your contractor is doing this, but a lot of times when a system doesn't work correctly the contractor just tries stringing it along until the customer becomes worn down and lives with a system not working or designed correctly.

I'm dealing with a customer now who paid $13K for a Unico system 11 years ago. When the temperature gets into the 90's the house will be in the 80's with the system running continuously. I've spent a lot of time sorting through the issues. The customer already paid to have this job done, they shouldn't have to pay again to be comfortable. These contractors that take the money and run should not get away with it. In this case, the installing contractor has been in business 50+ years.
 

Bigbandguy

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Considering the time of year it is, the "live with it a couple of weeks" will probably deliver you to cooler outdoor weather.. which is what he is hoping for. He wants to kick this can down the road and shut you up til next Summer ... I think you are dealing with a turkey here. Just my opinion backed by no expertise whatsoever.
 

CNGsaves

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OP . . . . if Trane has only sent out that same hack, you're in deep dooo-dah.

Get an EXPERT out there . . . +1 agree that guy is kicking the can for cooler weather. :sad:
 
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elcom

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I am out of town right now, so living with it (set to 85 while I am away) is pretty easy.

He seems to be waiting for me (the customer) to force him to do something. The problem is that I don't really know what will solve the problem.

Based on the good advice provided on this forum, all that I can think of is to ask him to test and potentially re-do the ducts. He has already said that he is reluctant to do this because he is not sure that it will solve the problem.

Anyone in the Houston area know of an expert that I can call to evaluate the situation? The only other option that I can think of is to call the other contractor that was bidding on this job whose bid was slightly higher.

I can't think of other options...
 
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danski0224

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If the TESP tests high, correcting the problem will improve comfort and efficiency.

The initial diagnostic requires 2 holes and a relatively inexpensive test instrument.

Yes, it is possible to dig deeper and start correcting the low hanging fruit first.

Even though most of your ducting is flex, wherever the flex is connected to metal collars or register boots , the flex needs to be sealed to the collar with mastic, then banded.

The boots themselves need to be sealed to the drywall with foam from the top or with caulk behind the register.

I would not proceed with any duct sealing exercises until the TESP is known. Sealing undersized ducting will make the problems worse.

I could just about guarantee you that all of your flex runs need to be upsized by 2". All 6" runs should be 8". All 7" runs should be 8" or 10" (depending on length, 9" flex is not commonly available)... and so forth. More than likely, the boots can stay but use a tapered reducer to change sizes. Minimum of R8 and you should consider R10 although that is more of a specialty product.

Your so-called plenums on either end of the furnace need to be enlarged.

That's the $0.50 tour.
 
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