Wooden Fence Options

[PeterT]

Anyone here on GJ a wooden fence expert?

I want to put up a fence around part of my property, approx a 50 x 60 enclosed rectangle.

I've already got the 6x6 posts in the ground about 7.5 feet apart.

I have the pressure treated 2x4s I plan to use as stringers or rails.

Instead of running the 2x4s on the inside or outside of the 6x6 posts, I wanted to run them center to center. I plan on using these 2x4 hangers.

I plan on doing a shadow box (alternating pickets) each side, leaving about 3" between the pickets. I am using 6' six inch pickets.

Any suggestions on this style vs hanging the 2x4s on the inside or outside, I figured this would show off the 'beefy' 6x6 posts a little, plus its a little different and both sides would look the same as opposed to one side having the posts and the other not having posts if I went a different way.

 

[remedialmofo]

I'm a fencing contractor in DFW and a few of my crews like to use the Simpson angle/corner galvanized brackets. They can be hidden in the shadow box and there's no need to have to be covered with trim since the pickets will hide them.



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[theoldwizard1]

I've already got the 6x6 posts in the ground about 7.5 feet apart.

I have the pressure treated 2x4s I plan to use as stringers or rails.

Instead of running the 2x4s on the inside or outside of the 6x6 posts, I wanted to run them center to center. I plan on using these 2x4 hangers.
I plan on doing a shadow box (alternating pickets) each side, leaving about 3" between the pickets. I am using 6' six inch pickets.

I built my shadow box fence over 25 years ago almost exactly as you describe (PT wood, 4x4 posts, 5' high, 10' post spacing) and it is still holding up great !

They did not have fancy hangers like that back then (or I did not know of them) so I came up with my own "bracket". First make sure the cross piece fits well between the posts. Then I nailed a mending plate (1"x6" steel plate) to the **** end of the 2x4 cross piece and screwed the parts of the plate above and below the cross piece to the post. I should have used hot dipped galvanized nails and screws, but I could not find them.

Because I wanted a 5' high fence, I cut the pickets from 1by PT 6"x10' boards and dog-eared them myself. If you but pre-cut pickets they will be thinner than standard 1by stock. Also, you need the right nails for for attaching the pickets. These are hard to find. You want a hot dipped galvanized, ring shank or ardox (twisted) box nails. Box nails have a thinner shank, but a standard head.

 

[remedialmofo]

I'd like to add to be sure and leave a 1/2" gap on both sides of the rails so it will have room to expand and the rail will not get a huge bow.

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[PeterT]

Ok, thanks A LOT for the feedback. I'll look at using those galvanized corner/angles as well so the pickets sit flush against the 2x4 instead of bulging.

 

[PeterT]

I'd like to add to be sure and leave a 1/2" gap on both sides of the rails so it will have room to expand and the rail will not get a huge bow.

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Would you use TWO of those corner/angle brackets per end,, so top and bottom of the 2x4? I planned on screwing them, would it be better to use the galvanized nails?

 

[remedialmofo]

Would you use TWO of those corner/angle brackets per end,, so top and bottom of the 2x4? I planned on screwing them, would it be better to use the galvanized nails?

Our new fences never have any less than 3 rails on a 6' tall fence and 4 rails on a 8' tall fence. The 6' would get 6 brackets the 8' would get 8 brackets. Two 1/4"x1" hex head lag screws per bracket. They zip those lags in with a 1/4" cordless impact. And yes the lag screws are Electro Galvanized.

EDIT: I fixed the error on my bracket count. I was in a hurry and didn't double check it sorry.

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[WAPat]

Would you use TWO of those corner/angle brackets per end,, so top and bottom of the 2x4? I planned on screwing them, would it be better to use the galvanized nails?

I would use screws, and 2 angle brackets. I would also use screws on the pickets and stainless ones only. I used coated screws on my fence 4 years ago and now it has black stains below every screw, the initial cost of stainless would have been worth it.

 

[PeterT]

Thanks a bunch for the opinions I have a little shopping to do for hardware.

One last question, I plan on doing a shadow box, should I just put up the rails/stringer 2x4s and pickets wet (well not soaking, I've had them in my barn for a couple weeks),, but I don't think they would take stain yet,, maybe they would.
Should I just put em up, and next summer stain/seal them? Seems like it would be difficult with the shadow box I don't see how I would get to the middle parts.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I would use screws, and 2 angle brackets. I would also use screws on the pickets and stainless ones only.

OVERKILL !

Hot dipped galvanized roofing nails for the brackets.

Hot dipped galvanized box nails for the pickets.

Mine have been there 25+ and no staining.

 

[remedialmofo]

I would use screws, and 2 angle brackets. I would also use screws on the pickets and stainless ones only. I used coated screws on my fence 4 years ago and now it has black stains below every screw, the initial cost of stainless would have been worth it.

Stainless steel screws??? Wow, you should do the math on what that would set you back. Now 6 or 8 stainless ring shank nails depending on how many rails you have yes all day long. I'd like to see you kick through that without completely destroying the picket

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[remedialmofo]

OVERKILL !

Hot dipped galvanized roofing nails for the brackets.

Hot dipped galvanized box nails for the pickets.

Mine have been there 25+ and no staining.

Are your rails/stringers pressure treated??? The reason I recommended SS ring shank nails is because the op IS using PT rails and the chemical in PT lumber will eat right through hot dipped and electro galvanized nails. Not the case with a SS RS nail. I buy the coil nail boxes for around $100

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[remedialmofo]

Thanks a bunch for the opinions I have a little shopping to do for hardware.

One last question, I plan on doing a shadow box, should I just put up the rails/stringer 2x4s and pickets wet (well not soaking, I've had them in my barn for a couple weeks),, but I don't think they would take stain yet,, maybe they would.
Should I just put em up, and next summer stain/seal them? Seems like it would be difficult with the shadow box I don't see how I would get to the middle parts.

Anytime we build a new fence and the customer wants it stained we will just order the material "pre dipped" this way all four sides are coated. We do however get customers that already have a fence in place that needs to be stained or re-stained. In that case we use our stain rigs and spray everything that is visible. The modified oil based stain we use will penetrate the wood deeply and protect the wood you didn't coat. After all the color is just from the iron oxide pigment it's the oil that is doing the protecting. Each coat every 3-5 years saturates it deeper and deeper. In my opinion I would get it built and stain what you can see in 2-3 weeks after its been hanging out in the sun. Stacked in the barn it's holding on to moisture. And if you wait an entire year that's plenty of time to allow mold and mildew to discolor the wood and the stain won't hide that unless it's a solid stain. So then you will have to chemically soft wash it or risk tearing up the wood with a pressure wash.

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[CNGsaves]

Too late now for OP as he's already bought normal PT stringers . . . . but he COULD have bought kiln-dried YellowWood PT boards and they can be immediately stained. Obviously they cost more.

For those thin pickets, stain the heck out of them as they're known to bow and deteriorate with moisture/time. Also, you just have to have minimum 3 stringers on edge. 4 stringers would be better. Those thin pickets will need re-curring maintenance (ie re-staining) every few years.

Screws instead of nails. You WILL be replacing some of those thin pickets when they fail, get hit with a football, etc.

PRE-PLAN any potential access to yard that you might want to keep. When my carpenter brother built my fence, he built extra frame on one section so the whole thing could be removed my taking out lag bolts on both sides. Recommend steel frame so it won't warp over time. If need be, you could even plan a removable post with 2 framed-in sections and you could get a utility trailer into back yard, RV into back yard, deliver storage shed, etc.

 

[remedialmofo]

Too late now for OP as he's already bought normal PT stringers . . . . but he COULD have bought kiln-dried YellowWood PT boards and they can be immediately stained. Obviously they cost more.

For those thin pickets, stain the heck out of them as they're known to bow and deteriorate with moisture/time. Also, you just have to have minimum 3 stringers on edge. 4 stringers would be better. Those thin pickets will need re-curring maintenance (ie re-staining) every few years.

Screws instead of nails. You WILL be replacing some of those thin pickets when they fail, get hit with a football, etc.

PRE-PLAN any potential access to yard that you might want to keep. When my carpenter brother built my fence, he built extra frame on one section so the whole thing could be removed my taking out lag bolts on both sides. Recommend steel frame so it won't warp over time. If need be, you could even plan a removable post with 2 framed-in sections and you could get a utility trailer into back yard, RV into back yard, deliver storage shed, etc.

We remove nailed pickets everyday doing repairs. Even if they are ring shank or twisted deck nails a cats paw will make short work of pulling the nails. Hardly worth the cost of screws to speed up the process of removing a picket by a few seconds I'll race you anytime! I may even beat your drill.

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[Trey T]

6x6 post... Exactly what I would choose for my fence but I would spend the money for cedar though. I'm not into the PT green look

 

[remedialmofo]

6x6 post... Exactly what I would choose for my fence but I would spend the money for cedar though. I'm not into the PT green look

Another cedar fan ehhh are you just that in love with the smell when it's fresh? I could stain a untreated Brazilian yellow pine picket a particular color from one of the stain manufacturers and you couldn't tell the difference from pine to cedar by looking at it. The pine is actually heavier and stronger and at half the price who cares how long cedar lasts compared to pine, spruce or any other white wood when unstained if you are staining it. They will both last the same when stained so save your money!

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[theoldwizard1]

Are your rails/stringers pressure treated??? The reason I recommended SS ring shank nails is because the op IS using PT rails and the chemical in PT lumber will eat right through hot dipped and electro galvanized nails.

I used galvanized ring shank box nails on the picks but not on the PT rails and posts. I did use electro-galvanized screws into the posts. 25+ years later they are holding up.

Hot dipped galvanized nails hold up well to PT chemicals. Stainless is better, but more $$$.

 

[theoldwizard1]

6x6 post... Exactly what I would choose for my fence but I would spend the money for cedar though. I'm not into the PT green look

6x6 PT post are over kill, except for corner and gate posts. 4x4 are fine.

Cedar 4x4 post last about 20 years (I have replaced about 20 on my son's 6' cedar fence).

 

[theoldwizard1]

The pine is actually heavier and stronger and at half the price who cares how long cedar lasts compared to pine, spruce or any other white wood when unstained if you are staining it. They will both last the same when stained so save your money!

If you want to stain PT, wait at least 1 or 2 seasons. Otherwise the stain can not soak in.

 

[PeterT]

6x6 PT post are over kill, except for corner and gate posts. 4x4 are fine.

Cedar 4x4 post last about 20 years (I have replaced about 20 on my son's 6' cedar fence).

I have almost CONSTANT 20+ mph winds here in Toledo between Dec-June,, so a little overkill won't bother me. Plus I might add they are 10 footers, with 4 ft buried in concrete.... WHen the gales of November come early, me and my fence will be ready

 

[cbracer]

I've heard the redwood planks last longer than cedar? I need to take down my existing fence and build a new one. I live in southern California and would love to do something that's not vinyl. I'm looking to do round metal posts painted black, 6' high, wood stringers and dog earned planks, stained to match something close to my garage door. Likely I'll use SS screws, cost isn't THAT much more since they are widely available for building decks. But the SS nail with a nail gun might be the easiest choice. I haven't figured out where to buy the wood yet.....

 

[theoldwizard1]

I've heard the redwood planks last longer than cedar?

Redwood is ridiculously expensive east of the Mississippi. Probably east of the Rockies.

 

[MikeF2316]

6x6 PT post are over kill, except for corner and gate posts. 4x4 are fine.

Cedar 4x4 post last about 20 years (I have replaced about 20 on my son's 6' cedar fence).

4x4 are plenty strong when they're new. Slowly they start to deteriorate at the ground. A couple of years ago my neighbour and I rebuilt the fence on our property line. There was nothing wrong with any of it except 8 of the 9 4x4 posts had broken at the ground. We rebuilt with 6x6 posts.

On the bright side, we only had one post to dig out.

 

[Trey T]

6x6 PT post are over kill, except for corner and gate posts. 4x4 are fine.

Cedar 4x4 post last about 20 years (I have replaced about 20 on my son's 6' cedar fence).

4x4 are fine but 6x6 looks better.

 

[PeterT]

4x4 are fine but 6x6 looks better.

What is the style of that top fence? Is it board on board? Is one layer of pickets placed on the inside of a 2x4 or other stringer (is there a stringer on the other side?), then another layer right on top of that spaced the same but overlapping?

 

[remedialmofo]

What is the style of that top fence? Is it board on board? Is one layer of pickets placed on the inside of a 2x4 or other stringer (is there a stringer on the other side?), then another layer right on top of that spaced the same but overlapping?

Board on Board and they used the same 6" picket for the top cap and top and bottom trim. Spacing on the first run of pickets is 3". Since you have to get everything to fit within the line posts you nail your far left and far right pickets, cut a 3 " block and work toward the middle. You don't want your spacing anywhere close to 6" because the top pickets will cup when you nail in the field. You'd have to nail the edges and there's no support for the top picket. The top pickets are eyeballed and not spacedwith your block. If you using 2x4 and 5/8" pickets the picket nails should be 1-3/4" for the bottom pickets and 2-1/4" for the top pickets. And yes the other side of that fence looks the same.

EDIT: Actually the top cap and trim look more like 1" thick and I doubt they have true 1" thick pickets although that's not unheard of

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[PeterT]

Board on Board and they used the same 6" picket for the top cap and top and bottom trim. Spacing on the first run of pickets is 3". Since you have to get everything to fit within the line posts you nail your far left and far right pickets, cut a 3 " block and work toward the middle. You don't want your spacing anywhere close to 6" because the top pickets will cup when you nail in the field. You'd have to nail the edges and there's no support for the top picket. The top pickets are eyeballed and not spacedwith your block. If you using 2x4 and 5/8" pickets the picket nails should be 1-3/4" for the bottom pickets and 2-1/4" for the top pickets. And yes the other side of that fence looks the same.

EDIT: Actually the top cap and trim look more like 1" thick and I doubt they have true 1" thick pickets although that's not unheard of

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Ok, so first layer 3" spacing, starting from opposite ends meeting in the middle.
Second layer, bridges the 3" gap, and you say nail in the center into the stringer? Or nail into the slight overlap of the 1st layer pickets? These would be spaced about the same right, 3",, starting from both fence posts working toward the center?

I was outside a few minutes ago, I put up the posts about 5 days ago and this recent heat seems to be splitting the tops of my 6x6s, not severly but I wonder if that will continue - they are obviously drying but I didnt' think they would do that.

 

[remedialmofo]

Ok, so first layer 3" spacing, starting from opposite ends meeting in the middle.
Second layer, bridges the 3" gap, and you say nail in the center into the stringer? Or nail into the slight overlap of the 1st layer pickets? These would be spaced about the same right, 3",, starting from both fence posts working toward the center?

I was outside a few minutes ago, I put up the posts about 5 days ago and this recent heat seems to be splitting the tops of my 6x6s, not severly but I wonder if that will continue - they are obviously drying but I didnt' think they would do that.

Yes, you nail the top run of pickets in the field and not on the edges. You're putting up 6" pickets right? If so and you only have a 3" gap or so on your bottom run of pickets the top pickets will not cup since they are supported underneath. Any spacing on the bottom course close enough to the width of the pickets you will have to nail the edges or it would cup when the nail draws the material inward. The top pickets are nailed all the way through the stringer. This is why you would use longer nails on the top layer. If you used the same length as you did on the bottom run they would penetrate the stringer less the thickness of one picket.

You could have mitered bevels on the wooden posts but since they are already set you could cap them. I've used copper 4x4 caps before but I have never sourced 6x6 caps. They may get pretty spendy if you have more than a few to buy. You could coat the end grain though with a roof sealant though since you won't see it from the ground to prevent it from getting worse.

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[theoldwizard1]

4x4 are fine but 6x6 looks better.

No argument, especially on a 6' fence (mine is only 5').

 

[PeterT]

Ok, thanks for all the input I think I got enough information to proceed.

 

[langss]

After the Northridge Earthquake in 94 I had a board fence put up to replace the Block Wall that fell over. The crew that put it up used metal poles sunk into the remains of the block wall that was below grade. When I moved in 05, the fence was just as solid as the day it was finished. To cover the metal pole for the people that it bothered, they built a little box around it. It looked like a 6x6 when they were done. When I redo my fence this year, I'm using metal poles.

 

[Rm2728]

I hate the metal brackets.

We pocket hol our stringers/rails and use deck screws on the pickets.

 

[PeterT]

I hate the metal brackets.

We pocket hol our stringers/rails and use deck screws on the pickets.

Interesting, do you use a jig to drill those pocket holes? Is that picture from the outside or inside of the fence? are the stringer even with the outside of that 4x4 post so the pickets don't have a start and end between posts?

 

[Trey T]

Yeah I don't like metal brackets either, it makes it look unnatural when the alternative is just as simple. are you gonna fill those pocket holes or leave them exposed?

 

[Rm2728]

I use the KREG HD Jig. We don't usually fill them.

On this fence, they are on the inside. We also do pocket holes on the top and bottom of the rails depending on what's visible. The faces are flush across the picket side.

 

[67CarGuy]

I like the pocket holes too! Nice clean look.

We've got a 2 year old fence, PT 6x6 posts at the corners and gates, 4x4 PT posts everywhere else. We went with cedar to fill in, and are quite happy with the results. Yes, they gray over time, but they're naturally insect resistant, and I don't have to worry about any chemicals if I decide to lick my fence....

 

[Rm2728]

Here's a style of gate we build regularly.