UF cable in water pipe? Meet code? How many conduits in a trench?

[Fallon]

We are getting solar put on our barn & I'm doing the trenching (solar guys are going to be dropping in their own conduit). While I'm at it, I'm going to be trenching out to the chicken coop as well.

Solar guys are going to be pulling permits & getting inspections for their stuff, so I don't want to cause any problems for them when the inspector shows up. Colorado sticks with NEC, but I can't find clarification on direct bury stuff in unrated conduit. I want to do it safe & right as well as meeting code.

Is it kosher to put one or 2 runs of UF (direct bury) rated cable inside of water pipe? I'm assuming this belt & suspenders approach would be fine & future proof, but not sure. I know water pipe isn't considered kosher as conduit, you need PVC for that, but I'll be using direct bury rated cable buried at least 2' down. I'm planning on actually running 3 1" black poly water pipes. First 4' down for water, one for power & the 3rd for some direct bury rated Ethernet (sprinkler control & a coop monitor) 2-3' down. I was planning on sleeveing things with metal or schedule 80 from the bottom of the trench where to the box (which I believe is required by code).

I'm also looking at the same question for running 100@ service out to the shop/barn. We are quite likely going to end up cutting my existing 50@ service trenching out to the barn. I'm figuring it might be easier to not worry about avoiding it & just use it as a good excuse to upgrade to 100@ capable wire. I don't want to try to use the solar conduit, so will run my own in the same trench. What is code relating to how many high & low voltage conduits you can drop in a trench?

 

[theoldwizard1]

Is it kosher to put one or 2 runs of UF (direct bury) rated cable inside of water pipe?
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I'm also looking at the same question for running 100@ service out to the shop/barn.

Are these 2 different circuits, because you are not going to find UF big enough to carry 100A!

I would be surprised if any inspector allowed use on non-electrical rated conduit.

You need the experts here to discuss your 100A service. If you can keep it down to 90A (at the panel you are tapping into) you can likely use MHF aluminum wire. This is direct bury rated and is very cost effective. The size depends on the distance,

 

[Fallon]

I'm not as certain on the 100@ stuff yet. I haven't seen any UF bigger than 10, maybe 8 gauge, although there is other direct bury rated stuff that is good for the amperage I'm looking for. The 100@ cable is likely to end up in PVC to make my life easier trying to comply with codes. I haven't finished crunching the numbers & trade-offs to see if it would be worth it to run direct bury 100@ cable in 1.5" water pipe vs. appropriate cable in 1.5" PVC.

My main concern is being able to use water pipe for a pair of 15-20@ circuits & some low voltage stuff to make my life & future stuff easier & still not get an inspector concerned.

 

[Stuart in MN]

Is there a reason you want to use water pipe instead of electrical conduit? It's not going to be approved for electrical use no matter what.

 

[Fallon]

Cost & ease of install. It's a lot easier to get a 100' (or 300') of black plastic pipe & put it in a non-straight trench than glue up sticks of PVC. I keep hearing there is poly pipe rated to be used as electrical conduit, but haven't been able to find any sources locally. The one or 2 I tracked down on the Internet was 3-4 times the cost of PVC sticks.

 

[rockwithjason]

no inspector worth his salt would approve that

 

[thewatusi]

How long does it take to glue 10 (or 30) sticks of pvc together? 15 minutes once they're all layed out? 20 at the most?

Just do it right.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Rockwithjason's right.

Waterpipe doesn't fit the requirements

2011 NEC

353.1 Scope. This article covers the use, installation, and construction specifications for high density polyethylene (HDPE) conduit and associated fittings.

353.6 Listing Requirements. HDPE conduit and associated fittings shall be listed.
______________________________________________________________

You'd be a lot better of going with PVC from end to end, and using THWN rather than UF in all of these applications. (For instance only one 12/2 UF cable can be run through a 3/4" conduit, vs. 15 individual THWNs being to Code in the same conduit)

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Do it right and be done with it already!

Sheesh!

 

[CNGsaves]

Do it right and be done with it already!

Sheesh!

^ ^ ^ This !! OP listen to GJ Sparkies who are telling you straight up !!

Use 2" sch 40 plastic conduit (electrical) for the buried portion and sch 80 once above ground. If your distance isn't too far, the MHF Al 2-2-2-4 is cost effective at approx $1.50/ft for the wire which will give you 90A.

Use you continuous plastic water pipe for your low-voltage stuff (internet, CATV, phone, security, etc). Thus, dig deep trench and put 2" conduit for electric at bottom in some sand. Backfill 12" dirt, then put in your low voltage conduit. Backfill some more, then put in caution tape . . . just for future safety proofing !!

 

[theoldwizard1]

Use you continuous plastic water pipe for your low-voltage stuff (internet, CATV, phone, security, etc).

Does NEC even have a section on low voltage ?

 

[alfredeneuman]

Does NEC even have a section on low voltage ?

Article 720 is "Circuits and Equipment Operating at Less than 50 Volts"

Article 725 is "Class 1, Class 2, and Class 3 Remote-Control, Signaling, and
Power-Limited Circuits"

..........so yes.

 

[KiltLifter]

You might also find it easier to use the straight sticks than wrestle with the coil of pipe.

Also, even for your low voltage - the water pipe may collapse after back-fill (because there'll be no water pressure!) and you might never be able to upgrade to cat7 or fiber or RG600 (in case your peeps want cable and UHDTV!).

 

[joe_padavano]

Cost & ease of install.

If cost and ease of install are your criteria, why are you buying direct burial and then NOT directly burying it?

 

[Fallon]

Thanks for the reality check. Sounds like water pipe will be fine for the low voltage, but I'll need to still do PVC for even the low amperage 120v.

I really want to use conduit rather than direct bury for all the stuff I'm forgetting. If I need more power or to upgrade something, I just use the pull string rather than digging another trench.

I was thinking I could future proof things with water pipe conduit & get away with it not being rated by using direct bury. Sounds like consensus is that's not a great idea.

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

 

[Jlarson]

If you are just using it as a sleeve for the UF cable then the pipe is fine.

It's pretty common to plow in poly roll pipe to run UF through later.

 

[Stuart in MN]

If you are just using it as a sleeve for the UF cable then the pipe is fine.

It's pretty common to plow in poly roll pipe to run UF through later.

They plow in HDPE electrical conduit, not water pipe.

 

[Jlarson]

They plow in HDPE electrical conduit, not water pipe.

Water pipe is used all the time. Just to provide a sleeve UF there's no reason to waste money.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

water pipe is fine until.... years later someone digs into it thinking its the water pipe they are looking for to tee off of and cuts it with a saw expecting to get wet and gets ssshock instead.

 

[Highbeam]

water pipe is fine until.... years later someone digs into it thinking its the water pipe they are looking for to tee off of and cuts it with a saw expecting to get wet and gets ssshock instead.

I use PE water pipe for sewer force mains too and have always wondered if some idiot will try and use it for domestic water. Same pipe. Same size. Same color.

I have worked with lots of 300 foot rolls of PE water pipe. It is not much fun. I would much rather glue together full length sticks of electrical conduit. It's a one step glue not primer and then glue, the sticks come with a **** connector formed onto each end. It is flexible enough to handle a not perfect trench. And of course it is the proper material.

 

[alfredeneuman]

This thread reminded me of this:

I had an electrician from Mexico as an apprentice once, and he told me how in-slab conduits are done down South.
They grease up a garden hose and lay it in the slab before pouring the concrete. (Very little cement mixed way way too much sand and aggregate the size of golf balls)
When the slab dries, they'll pull the greased hose out so they can use it again on the next job.

Voila= Instant pre lubed conduit!

 

[Fallon]

Finished the trenching today, 2' deep for power, 4' where the water will be buried. I have a pile of grey 3/4" PVC electrical conduit & 90 degree sweep corners sitting next next to the trench read to glue up. Poly pipe & frost free hydrants should be here tomorow.

I'll be puling in THWN-2 or something else appropriately rated. I'm planning on pulling 10 gauge 2 pair & 3 pair. Does anybody sell this bundled? Home Depot only has single spools, either to short or way to long. And you dont want to pull the wires one at a time, a lot easire to pull all of them through at the same time.

Any suggestions for procuring wire in an easy to pull format without getting 6 huge spools & ending up with a lot of leftovers?

Sent from my K00C using Tapatalk

 

[simpler=better]

Call your local electrical house, they will sell you wire by the foot, and typically cheaper than the orange devil.

Don't forget this when planning wire runs:
http://www.electrician2.com/calculators/rf_calculator.html


10ga=30A, is that enough?

 

[Fallon]

2 100-250 watt automatic waterer heaters, a couple light bulbs, maybe a dozen watts of Raspberry Pi automation stuff, 50 watts of occasional linear actuators & probably another 100-500 of heaters of various sorts during the winter. So ya, WAY under 30@.

I'm running 10ga to fight voltage drop. Although resistive heaters, light bulbs & wall wart transformers really won't care to much about voltage drop.

And, ya, spent some quality time on that very webpage a month or 2 ago. According to it I can stuff up to 10 10ga wires in the 3/4" conduit & have mostly installed already. Worst case scenario I'm planning on 2 circuits, 1 with a 3 way switch, so 7 wires. Could stuff 16 in if I drop to 12ga & still be fine for amp ratings.

 

[sberry]

If this is running to some kind of structure needs to be a single circuit.

 

[ishiboo]

2 100-250 watt automatic waterer heaters, a couple light bulbs, maybe a dozen watts of Raspberry Pi automation stuff, 50 watts of occasional linear actuators & probably another 100-500 of heaters of various sorts during the winter. So ya, WAY under 30@.

I'm running 10ga to fight voltage drop. Although resistive heaters, light bulbs & wall wart transformers really won't care to much about voltage drop.

And, ya, spent some quality time on that very webpage a month or 2 ago. According to it I can stuff up to 10 10ga wires in the 3/4" conduit & have mostly installed already. Worst case scenario I'm planning on 2 circuits, 1 with a 3 way switch, so 7 wires. Could stuff 16 in if I drop to 12ga & still be fine for amp ratings.

As sherry said - one circuit.

I would do a 10ga MWBC fed to a small panel. That would give you 2x30A, or 2x20A if voltage drop necessitates it.

 

[sberry]

Breaker at 20 and don't need secondary ocpd,,, ha MWBC is good for V drop on circuits with heavier loads.