Electrician installed wrong size wire

[wyliesdiesels]

So it is indeed #4 huh? Well I said it before and Ill say it again HACK WORK!

Just out of curiosity can u snap a pic of the label on the wire? Im really curious what the insulation rating of the wire is....hopefully its not just USE2....

And yeah u can use smurf tube but its a ***** because of the creases and wreaks of lazy half assness...plus it affords little protection for the wire. It is easily crushed and inferior as walrus already said. I only use it for com wiring....

Now that we have the whole picture- #4 AL on 100a breaker, smurf tube, bare ground, splices, yellow EGC, etc etc, i think its agreed that this is ****** work!

Better get the guy to fix it or refund u the money.

How deep did he bury it?

 

[mach158]

I took a couple pictures of the wire when I had the cover off. They are not the best but will hopefully give you an idea of what the wire is.

 

[mach158]

How deep did he bury it?

Wire is buried 24" below grade.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Its #4 THHN. Is it AL from the panel to the junction box?

 

[mach158]

Its #4 THHN. Is it AL from the panel to the junction box?

Correction, its copper.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Just thought i would make sure as he did use a bare piece of cu!

Well that whole thing should be redone! He didnt provide what the contract asked for and the wire is a fire waiting to happen!

 

[mach158]

Correction, it is #4 copper from main panel to junction box. Sorry for providing the wrong info.

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[Norcal]

Correction, it is #4 copper from main panel to junction box. Sorry for providing the wrong info.

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Still not a 100A conductor though, per table 310.15(B)(16) (formerly table 310.16 in NEC editions prior to 2014) , in the 75 degree column it's rated 85 amperes.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Well keep us posted...

 

[justsam]

Really looks like this EC elects to use the 90 degree column for wire ampacity.

If he is doing this than each termination and junction needs to be so rated. I doubt he will find a 90 degree rated 100Amp breaker that will fit your panel. Even at 90 degree rating the 4 ga copper falls short at 95 Amps.

I would be a little concerned that he used AL/Cu rated connectors at the junction box.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I would be a little concerned that he used AL/Cu rated connectors at the junction box.

That thought crossed my mind as well but got focused on the wire size issues! OP would need to unwrap what looks like kearneys to check and see if theyre CU/AL rated...

 

[Jlarson]

A lot of H taps are rated for CU-AL.

 

[mach158]

Update:

Apparently everything will pass inspection as it met code when installed.

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[wyliesdiesels]

What? No way was that code when it was installed. #4 Al on a 100a breaker?

 

[mach158]

What? No way was that code when it was installed. #4 Al on a 100a breaker?

It's #4 cu tied to #2 al except the ground goes to #4 al. I thought the same thing but had the inspector come out for a consult and said it would pass under the code when it was installed. I'll update if the final turns out any different.

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[walrus]

I don't believe #4 CU was ever legal for 100amp breaker in a non service situation and this isn't a service.

 

[justsam]

To provide what you contracted for, the wire needs to be replaced and it can not have 4ga pigtails on it, whether they are copper or aluminum.

Does it come close to what you asked for, yes, but then again you contracted and paid for 100Amp service not 90. If it were really a 100Amp service, than you would feed it with a 100Amp breaker. Is the EC recommending that you continue to use a 100Amp breaker? If anything less than it must not be 100Amp service! Yet for proper protection based on NEC rules in place at the time, you could NOT breaker at 100Amps.

Sounds like neither the EC or the inspector are on their game. At best you can probably cut your losses and say you gave me 90% or what we contracted for, I will pay you 90% of the bill.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

It's #4 cu tied to #2 al except the ground goes to #4 al. I thought the same thing but had the inspector come out for a consult and said it would pass under the code when it was installed. I'll update if the final turns out any different.

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Even being cu, it was not rated for 100a a few years ago when it was done.

Inspector is wrong!

 

[mach158]

I finally received an e-mail from the electrician noting when he talked with the inspector and said everything was good. Here is a copy of his e-mail.

I spoke with the Linn County Electrical Inspector (Will remain nameless) and the wiring in the ground is up to code for this project.
The wire that was install is 2-2-2-4 URD and is rated for 90 Amps. Which is legal per the residential code 2014 NEC 310.15(B)7 which allows for de-rating the wire to the service up to 83% of full load capacity. Voltage drop is not enforceable per the electric code.

Wiring was install up to code on initially under the 2011 NEC code that had a table allowing # 2 Aluminum be used for 100 amp services. All is installed properly and per updates in the code it is still legal and up to the Standards of the 2014 NEC and Linn county codes.

 

[Rock knocker]

I would say normally trades have a 1 year warranty, but this is not to code nor is it safe. Will be interesting to see the outcome. Was it run in conduit? It may not be large enough to pull new wire through either.......

The one year warranty often runs contrary to construction defects laws. For instance here is a Florida conversation.

http://www.floridaconstructionupdat...f-repose-in-florida-construction-law-matters/

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I finally received an e-mail from the electrician noting when he talked with the inspector and said everything was good. Here is a copy of his e-mail.

I spoke with the Linn County Electrical Inspector (Will remain nameless) and the wiring in the ground is up to code for this project.
The wire that was install is 2-2-2-4 URD and is rated for 90 Amps. Which is legal per the residential code 2014 NEC 310.15(B)7 which allows for de-rating the wire to the service up to 83% of full load capacity. Voltage drop is not enforceable per the electric code.

Wiring was install up to code on initially under the 2011 NEC code that had a table allowing # 2 Aluminum be used for 100 amp services. All is installed properly and per updates in the code it is still legal and up to the Standards of the 2014 NEC and Linn county codes.

OMG #2 AL is NOT allowed to be protected at 100a in this application even under the 2011 code. However, there is much debate about this.

Yes that is true a certain VD is not a requirement in the NEC. The NEC only gives a recommendation for max VD...

Also, does the URD enter the structure? If so, thats not right either.

Furthermore, #4 CU has an ampacity of 85a under 2011 NEC. Did u ask him about the #4 CU?

 

[mach158]

OMG #2 AL is NOT allowed to be protected at 100a in this application even under the 2011 code. However, there is much debate about this.

Yes that is true a certain VD is not a requirement in the NEC. The NEC only gives a recommendation for max VD...

Also, does the URD enter the structure? If so, thats not right either.

Furthermore, #4 CU has an ampacity of 85a under 2011 NEC. Did u ask him about the #4 CU?

I don't believe I asked about the CU now that you mentioned that.

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[mach158]

OMG #2 AL is NOT allowed to be protected at 100a in this application even under the 2011 code. However, there is much debate about this.

Yes that is true a certain VD is not a requirement in the NEC. The NEC only gives a recommendation for max VD...

Also, does the URD enter the structure? If so, thats not right either.

Furthermore, #4 CU has an ampacity of 85a under 2011 NEC. Did u ask him about the #4 CU?

I have asked about the copper and am awaiting a reply.

Can someone explain this de-rating stuff? First I have heard of this.

 

[rburke65]

The EC offering you 10% refund is the easy way out for him. Id take that puppy to court and either he would redo the work with the 100Amp. feed as contracted, or refund the entire 100% of the monies......not 10%. This guy does **** work and got caught and he wants you to eat the 90% and him the 10%.

 

[mach158]

OMG #2 AL is NOT allowed to be protected at 100a in this application even under the 2011 code. However, there is much debate about this.

Yes that is true a certain VD is not a requirement in the NEC. The NEC only gives a recommendation for max VD...

Also, does the URD enter the structure? If so, thats not right either.

Furthermore, #4 CU has an ampacity of 85a under 2011 NEC. Did u ask him about the #4 CU?

Sorry I forgot to answer your question there. The URD goes from the junction box by the main panel through the conduit you see attached to the ceiling in the house and runs to the shop and up through the conduit I put in the shop to the panel.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I have asked about the copper and am awaiting a reply.

Can someone explain this de-rating stuff? First I have heard of this.

Derating? Huh?

Who said anything about derating?

If youre referring to the 85a ampacity of #4 CU, thats not derating.

85a is what its rated at.

U need to study NEC 310.15(b)(16) (note: 90* c column is for derating purposes only; use the 75* c ampacity values.

http://www.barr-thorp.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Digest-176-NEC-Tables.pdf

Sorry I forgot to answer your question there. The URD goes from the junction box by the main panel through the conduit you see attached to the ceiling in the house and runs to the shop and up through the conduit I put in the shop to the panel.

So its inside the structure.

Thats not allowed as URD doesnt have fire rated insulation.

So a recap:

#2 AL is good for max 90a in this application

#4 CU is rated for 85a.

URD CANNOT be inside the structure...

 

[mach158]

[/b]

Derating? Huh?

Who said anything about derating?

The electrician mentioned it in his e-mail to me. I don't understand the relevance of why he mentioned it in his e-mail to my situation or how it applies in general. I have tried searching the net for my answer and it just confuses me.

 

[mach158]

U need to study NEC 310.15(b)(6) (note: 90* c column is for derating purposes only; use the 75* c ampacity values.

http://www.barr-thorp.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Digest-176-NEC-Tables.pdf

Thank you for the link.

In reference to chart 310.15(b)(7). Now my question is, what determines if the building is a dwelling or not. I have searched this and I keep coming up with conflicting answers. One says a dwelling is a livable space aka a house and then other answers say that any structure such as a garage can be labeled a dwelling.

I need to find a code somewhere with this labeling to be able to proceed because it appears they are going off of 310.15(b)(7) which shows that it is an acceptable use.

I know you mentioned the space is not a dwelling and I would agree but I need something to reference code wise or something to have something to push forward with.

It appears the wire in the end will be acceptable but it is the principle of the matter here.

 

[miner]

I would advise you to stop worrying about mostly trivial things like the color of the conduit and ground wire. The amp rating of the wires coupled with the distance to the structure is your main problem. However, in truth, you will very likely never have any problem with it the way it is. Plus, it sounds like the building inspector has confirmed it is, or at least was, to code. I would read this as meaning that the electrician has officially won the battle.

If it still causes you anxiety then put a 90 amp breaker on it and sleep easier.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The electrician mentioned it in his e-mail to me. I don't understand the relevance of why he mentioned it in his e-mail to my situation or how it applies in general. I have tried searching the net for my answer and it just confuses me.

That doesnt make sense.

There is no derating that comes into play here.

The derating of the ampacity of a conductor comes into play when theres more than 3 CCC(current carrying conductprs in a raceway or conduit amd when the ambient temperature is higher than normal such as in an attic...

Thank you for the link.

In reference to chart 310.15(b)(7). Now my question is, what determines if the building is a dwelling or not. I have searched this and I keep coming up with conflicting answers. One says a dwelling is a livable space aka a house and then other answers say that any structure such as a garage can be labeled a dwelling.

I need to find a code somewhere with this labeling to be able to proceed because it appears they are going off of 310.15(b)(7) which shows that it is an acceptable use.

I know you mentioned the space is not a dwelling and I would agree but I need something to reference code wise or something to have something to push forward with.

It appears the wire in the end will be acceptable but it is the principle of the matter here.

No way in hell does 310.15(b)(7) apply. It clearly says 3-wire service to a dwelling. 3-wire service means the wires feeding your main service panel ie. the service entrance wire. And 3-wire feeders to subpanels havent been allowed since 2008!

Yours is a 4-wire feeder NOT a service to a non dwelling. If someone lived in the garage then u could call it dwelling. But (b)(7) still wouldnt apply as yours is a feeder off of a service.

I dont see how they can misinterpret the code so much in your neck of the woods.

This really isnt that hard to understand.

Obviously the inspector doesnt know his sh*t!

I would advise you to stop worrying about mostly trivial things like the color of the conduit and ground wire. The amp rating of the wires coupled with the distance to the structure is your main problem. However, in truth, you will very likely never have any problem with it the way it is. Plus, it sounds like the building inspector has confirmed it is, or at least was, to code. I would read this as meaning that the electrician has officially won the battle.

If it still causes you anxiety then put a 90 amp breaker on it and sleep easier.

Wrong! This was NEVER to code. #4 CU is rated at 85a under 2011 NEC when this was done...

 

[miner]

No way in hell does 310.15(b)(7) apply. It clearly says 3-wire service to a dwelling.

Yours is a 4-wire feeder NOT a service to a non dwelling. If someone lived in the garage then u could call it dwelling. But (b)(7) still wouldnt apply as yours is a feeder off of a service.

I dont see how they can misinterpret the code so much in your neck of the woods.



Wrong! This was NEVER to code. #4 CU is rated at 85a under 2011 NEC when this was done...

Maybe the OP can email your posts to the building inspector and he will realize how wrong he is. If not, I hope you can serve as an expert witness at the trial.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Maybe the OP can email your posts to the building inspector and he will realize how wrong he is. If not, I hope you can serve as an expert witness at the trial.

Are u arguing over what i said?

Clearly its not to code!

Not all building inspectors know the codes and know what theyre doing!

 

[miner]

Are u arguing over what i said?

Clearly its not to code!

Not all building inspectors know the codes and know what theyre doing!

No. I am saying that in this case it doesn't matter what you say. The inspector appears to have decided (wrongly) that this installation is to code. That severely limits the restitution the OP can expect to get from the contractor. You can't fight city hall, but if the OP wants to try (not worth it) then he will likely need a lot more than the opinions of a few internet forum members.

 

[Norcal]

That table is only good for feeds that supply the ENTIRE dwelling load, they do not apply to subpanels, or outbuildings.

Here is the section from the NEC.


120/240-Volt, 3-wire Single Phase Dwelling Service and Feeders. For individual dwelling units of one- family, two-family, and multifamily dwellings, conductors as listed in table 310.16(B)(6), shall be permitted as 120/240-volt, 3-wire , single phase service-entrance, service-lateral conductors, and feeder conductors that serve as the main power feeder to each dwelling unit and are installed in raceway or cable with or without an equipment grounding conductor. For application of this section, the main power feeder shall be the feeder between the main disconnect and the panelboard that supplies, either by branch circuits or by feeders or both, all loads that are part or associated with the dwelling unit. The feeder conductors shall not be required to have an allowable ampacity greater then their service-entrance conductors, the grounded conductor shall be permitted to be smaller then the ungrounded conductors, provided the requirements of 215.2, 220..61, and 230.42 are met.

The OP's situation does not meet the criteria above.

The OP can go ahead w/ oversizing the circuit breaker for that feed, the inspector is wrong, but puppies and kittens will still be born blind & I doubt it will burn the place down, but it's still wrong.

 

[nadogail]

I have read this entire discussion just this evening.
Several things come to mind:

The NEC is not always the best way to wire anything, is is the minimum acceptable standard. Anybody who builds to the minimum standard is asking for future trouble.

The purchaser of the work apparently was not familiar with what he was buying, an so had to rely on the electrician. He was disappointed.

Price of materials and labor may have driven some of the decisions, that would explained the choice of aluminum conductors over copper.

I no longer do jobs for hire, and often hire others to do work I used to do for myself.

I told my customers there are three choices, Good, Fast, and Cheap. They may choose any two.

I suggest the original poster take the 90 Amp breaker (installed) and the 10% refund! and he will probably never have a problem in a home hobby workshop.

Not the best situation but "It is what it is, and Deal with it."

 

[bjcouche]

If I were in your situation, I would take what I could get from the electrician, and then do the job right myself. Trying to fight the electrician and inspector isn't worth your time, effort, high blood pressure, etc.
The first thing I would check is that if I could make what is currently installed work. Specifically, if 2-2-2-4 aluminum rated at 90A will be sufficient for your shop. You stated some of your intended future electrical loads. Here's what I would consider as a possible issue, running a plasma cutter. IF you are running a plasma cutter, that also means your 5HP air compressor will be running simultaneously. Guessing 20A for the plasma and 30A for the air compressor, that's 50A total. Lights could be added in as well, but fairly small. Outlets are insignificant. The big unknown for me is how much current your ELECTRIC HEAT will require.
Let's say that you can get your maximum, worst case current down to 90A. That means you can use the 2-2-2-4 that is already buried and it will meet code for 90A, but still have a voltage drop issue when running the near 90A.
Next, I would verify that your 2-2-2-4 is really URD, or is actually "mobile home feeder". I don't remember seeing in your pics whether the writing on the cable was URD... You are hoping it's multi rated, specifically rated USE, RHH, RHW. If it's NOT rated USE, they by code it's not allowed to enter your house (or the shop). It has to do with the type of insulation on the wire. If the wire is URD, then you have to have junction boxes on the outside of your house and shop and transition to approved wire types to enter the structures.
If it's USE, then I would simply remove the #4 copper between the junction box and your main panel and replace it will #2 aluminum (rated USE THHN, THWN, etc.). Then you'll have your entire run rated for 90A. Then swap your breaker out for a 90A breaker.
I suggested using #2 AL instead of copper to prevent having to connect copper and aluminum together. The blue "smurf" tube meets code and I would probably leave it there as long as that area isn't subject to potential damage from people leaning equipment against it. I would replace those smurf tube connectors though, it looks like the electrician used PVC connectors instead of those specifically designed for the tube.

Norcal and wyliesdiesels have given you good advice and they know their stuff. If you've perused this group much, you will come to that conclusion.
Many licensed electricians, and inspectors wrongly "interpret" the NEC and consider all subpanels as "services" to a "dwelling". Thus lots of non service installs end up with 2awg aluminum, on a 100A breaker.

If you can do what I suggested, everything will be to code, and you shouldn't notice the voltage drop except when running multiple large loads simultaneously. Do you know how much current your electric heat would take?

Brian