Auto mechanics:How long until you started matching or beating labor times?

[tjohnsonr10]

Hello all. Have been working on cars now part time for about two years. Two years ago when I started all I knew how to do was put gas in the tank. Now I buy and sell cars. Fix them up a bit and move them down the road.

Most of the cars I get need relatively simple stuff like ball joints, wheel bearings, struts/shocks, ac compressor, AC work, etc...

I started not knowing ANYTHING and sort of taught myself as I went.

My question for all the pros or highly skilled mechanics out there is, how long were you working on cars before you started meeting or beating labor guide times?

Sometimes I meet the time, sometimes I beat the time, sometimes I WAY exceed the time. I would say generally though I am over the time.

Just hoping for some input from you guys. Thanks!

*If this is in the wrong section sorry just move it!

 

[dave89iroc]

Sounds like you are at about the normal point, even seasoned mechanics won't beat the time if it's something they never did, it's all about experience , I'd say another 3-5 years and you'll beat the time 75% of the time


There will always be a certain job that kicks your ***, it happens

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[3 Gun Shooter]

I have over 40 years as a mechanic. Usually by the third time I have done specific job I can beat the time at least customer pay time. Warranty time can be something else, they are very short on time. Of course this does not include rusted parts, stripped bolt etc. Diaginostics are something else, you see repeat failure pretty easy, but when you have 30-40 hours in searching to a module that wakes up and drains a battery, well can be rough especially when the factory thinks you should get .3 hours to diaginois the vehicle.


If you are not at a dealership do not worry about beat book time.

 

[sberry]

I agree about the 3rd time. I can never beat its really rare I do the exact same job.

 

[Shopteacher]

Honestly, around the time I stopped caring about the clock...

 

[TauntDevil]

mmmm I would say usually the second or third time I do something as well as stop worrying about time. I guess it also helps that I work mostly on almost the same cars that I do all the time but everything is relative to the next vehicle as they are all built similar. Im self taught as well.

 

[tjohnsonr10]

Hey guys thank you very much for all of the input.

Its interesting because I don't really do customer work, just fix my own cars that I buy and sell.

The real reason I was asking is because I am trying to gauge my skill level and get a good feel for how I am coming along.

For the most part right now, every job I do is different so each job has its own learning curve.

I agree with most of you guys that about the second or third time I do the same job I can beat the labor time. Really after doing a job once I can significantly cut down my time.

Looking forward to any more input you guys have!

 

[jd_1138]

Hey guys thank you very much for all of the input.

Its interesting because I don't really do customer work, just fix my own cars that I buy and sell.

The pros usually only work on one brand and see the same cars/engines over and over.

So for you to beat the book times sometimes means you must be pretty good. Because you are working on every make/model.

My brother and I thought about opening up a classic Volvo only shop and get really good at old Volvos. Repair/buy/sell/trade.

 

[ktm722]

I'm 4.5 years into it started as a lube tech now a mid level B tech. 7/10 I can beat book time. Still have the jobs that whip my *** though. And you will always get them. Now mainly a gm tech but have ford/Mazda/Kia experience aswell.


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[2ndGearRubber]

I'd say I can beat labor about 75% of the time. I work on basically anything that rolls into the shop. Nobody can beat it every time, everyone loses eventually.

Some things you go into knowing you'll crush. V6 honda alternators, are a good example. Other stuff, like swapping a rusty, broken stud having, exhaust manifold on a triton 3 valve, you know going in to forget beating the time. On the same truck, one can do half-hour ball joints, assuming the cotter pins come out.



The goal, is to beat flat-rate overall. The ticket is booked for say, 7 hours, manifold, and both lowers. If you beat 7 hours, no matter how you got there, you won.


It took me about 4 years to beat the majority of times on whatever comes in. And there's still times I lose my shirt. Some jobs aren't ideal for flat rate anyways. A flat rate valve cover gasket doesn't include cleaning up some of the oil that the old gasket had been leaking, etc. While the customer only pays the flat time, slapping a gasket on and ignoring the oily gunk seeping onto the manifold seems half-assed to me.

Granted, I don't work straight flat-rate, so my opinion is a bit skewed. That, and the newest stuff I work on is 3-4 years old.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Example - 4wd manual trans Rav4. 19 hours and change to RR engine so you can change the clutch.


That doesn't include:

- Fixing the screwed up diff mount threads the last shop screwed up.
- Scrubbing anti-seize (yes, the grey stuff) off the trans input shaft which caused the disc to stick in the first place (along with a improperly adjusted clutch free-play).
- Replacing some of the exhaust while I'm in there.
- Forgetting an engine ground and burning 30min finding that out when it wouldn't start.



Still beat the time. I lost my *** getting the thing out. I planned to split the transmission case, pull the shafts/gears out, then yank off the bell housing and avoid pulling the engine. Didn't work (no room to back even the half-case out), ended up dropping the subframe out the bottom, engine trans and diff. I made the time back getting it back in and running in 4 hours or so once the clutch was in and the engine/diff/trans/subframe/everything-mounts-to-everything monstrosity was back together..


Live and learn. Now I know for the next time I do a 4wd manual trans early 2000s toyota rav4.

 

[Adam.C]

I used to try to beat the book when I was younger with some jobs I did over and over. Like others here, I think I was successful more times than most. The keys to my success were:

1) use the impact gun for as much as possible- ons as well as offs.
2) cut corners- very little cleaning, oilling, or torquing
3) work faster-I was physically very strong, could work in almost any position, and wore a sweat band because I was working so hard and fast.

I wonder if pro techs will identify with any of this (or will admit it).

Now that I'm older I question the value of working like this and work on my cars specifically because I feel I don't get top quality work from the garage, because of the book times. Whatever I do now, the car is always better off for it;. Every thing is clean, sometimes finishes are restored, threads properly chased when they look dodgey, hardware is replaced, re-lubed, and everything torqued correctly.

The extra time I spend is insignificant to me now (extra 30 minutes for a brake job for example). But I do nicer work, have learned more, I'm more confident in the sort of jobs I'll attempt, have more fun, and I almost NEVER bust my knuckles (or my ***).

My advice is, and with all due respect to the pros amoung us, to not use book times as a measure of auto repair competance or creds.

IMHO, the auto repair industry's tools, processes and procedures aren't set up for high quality work. It is set up to maximize profits for the shop owner while keeping consumer costs down. This is not to say you can't get quality work done. But my opinion is that quality work happens because individual mechanics CHOOSE to do a great job. So that's the behavior I try to emmulate.

 

[vintagespeed1956]

i dont beat labor times, but MY time is free.......right? free?

 

[rodsnratfinks]

I've worked at two different shops that would take basically anything that rolled in. One of those shops only had a single lift, a four poster. The other was a AAA drop off point, so many of our vehicles came in on a flatbed. I didn't beat time very often at either shop because we often had the most derelict vehicles with weird faults. Also, there was a tendency, as Adam C said, to cut corners. They were always trying to send cars out held together with bubble gum and twine and if the diagnostic was taking long, they would encourage us to throw posts at it. The second shop had a ton of comebacks. I refused to send vehicles with stripped threads of major sealing surfaces, reusing $8 gaskets, or arbitrarily replacing special order dealer only modules just because I can't locate the source of a battery drain in under 1.5 hours on a car that takes .5 to go to sleep.

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[WhiffySpark]

I used to try to beat the book when I was younger with some jobs I did over and over. Like others here, I think I was successful more times than most. The keys to my success were:

1) use the impact gun for as much as possible- ons as well as offs.
2) cut corners- very little cleaning, oilling, or torquing
3) work faster-I was physically very strong, could work in almost any position, and wore a sweat band because I was working so hard and fast.

I wonder if pro techs will identify with any of this (or will admit it).

Now that I'm older I question the value of working like this and work on my cars specifically because I feel I don't get top quality work from the garage, because of the book times. Whatever I do now, the car is always better off for it;. Every thing is clean, sometimes finishes are restored, threads properly chased when they look dodgey, hardware is replaced, re-lubed, and everything torqued correctly.

The extra time I spend is insignificant to me now (extra 30 minutes for a brake job for example). But I do nicer work, have learned more, I'm more confident in the sort of jobs I'll attempt, have more fun, and I almost NEVER bust my knuckles (or my ***).

My advice is, and with all due respect to the pros amoung us, to not use book times as a measure of auto repair competance or creds.

IMHO, the auto repair industry's tools, processes and procedures aren't set up for high quality work. It is set up to maximize profits for the shop owner while keeping consumer costs down. This is not to say you can't get quality work done. But my opinion is that quality work happens because individual mechanics CHOOSE to do a great job. So that's the behavior I try to emmulate.

The key is to find someone that beats the time and does quality work. Nothing leaves my bays questionable and the service writer knows that. If I stop mid job and tell him he needs to order something else he does with no argument.

The other service writer though, yeah he's a f cking douchebag. He tried to tell me for 8 hours pb blaster will allow me to rotate a bent steering bar on a one ton finally for alignment. He hasn't argued with me since that

 

[burke753]

It all depends on if you specialize in something. I garuntee if I did the same thing everyday. I would meet or beat time everytime. But we don't have enough people to specialize in my dealership so I do it all. There is some stuff I can beat warranty time on. Which I feel is next to impossible. Then there is other stuff that I would've just made more money calling in sick that day.


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[BuildFixModify]

I would be curious to know what the comeback rate is for the people that are always "beating" time. When I was a tech, I found that I actually made more by tracking my comeback rate and focusing on that instead of the clock. If you are constantly watching the clock you, you will do a lot of jobs for free the second time. Case in point, my last 3 yrs as a tech I had less than 1% comebacks and between 103%-108% productivity (flagged/clock). Quit watching the clock and the job becomes less stressful too.

 

[justtools]

I have been in the Auto service business for 30 years at a dealership. You beat book time by doing a job numerous times. If you need to read about how to do something. you just lost book time. Anyway My best techs when they do a job they grab the tools they need put them on a cart. Do the job and put the tools back. They beat book time all the time. The young techs I get feel that cutting corners is the best way to increase production. Most of the time it bites them.

 

[james92se]

I'm not a professional but have been doing almost all my own car work for ~15 years now ever since I started driving. All self-taught, although one could say I had the "gene" as my dad was an ASE master tech and big time car guy and had his own shop/business for 30+ years so my brother and I grew up entrenched in car culture.

Anyway, as of a few years back, AC work was one of my "weak" areas of automotive work (that and automatic transmission repair). One of my Maximas was intermittently blowing hot air and I reluctantly had to bring it to a shop. I had just built a custom turbocharger setup for it and was anxious to get it on the road ASAP and didn't have the diagnostic know-how to figure out the problem. So to a shop it went. It turned out it was a fairly notorious-for-Nissan thermo control amp. It's the little evap temp sensor that gets clipped onto the evaporator coils. Unfortunately, on the 3rd gen Maxima, the thermo control amp cannot be replaced without pulling the entire evaporator (and evac and recharging the system of course) because the evaporator box cannot be separated while it's still in the car. And to remove the evaporator on the 3rd gen Maxima the entire dash has to be pulled too - which I've done probably a dozen times over the years, not a fun task, especially in the summer in Texas.

I don't even remember what the exact book time was, but it was a good 5 or 6 hours I'm sure plus inherently requiring an evac and recharge too. It was something like $600-$700 all said and done IIRC, and they had to order the part from Nissan and I had to wait a week for that to come in.

Anyway, so I get the car back and it's still doing the same BS. I start doing some investigating into it myself. As anybody familiar with Nissan is probably aware, the thermo control amp "box" itself sits on the outside of the evaporator box and is attached with a single screw. Then it has the temp sensor wires which feed into the evaporator itself.

It turned out the lazy SOB simply "installed" the new unit by FREELY DANGLING THE SENSOR BULB DOWN INSIDE THE EVAPORATOR BOX. He said that was "just as good". He never pulled the evaporator, never evac and recharged the system, none of that. What he did was literally not even 2-3 minutes of work. But of course they made sure to charge me "book time".

Ever since then, which has only been a couple of years now, I've self-taught myself AC diagnostics/repair with the help of trail and error and of course some good AC forums. I've bought all my own AC equipment and even taught myself to build custom hoses/lines via replacing beadlock/ferrules etc. I've even since then done paid custom AC work for people charging half the prices of shops.

But I'll never forget my expensive lesson I learned regarding "book time"

 

[66354dream]

I never looked at book time when I was a tech unless it was to get an idea of how difficult a job is or should have been. I always thought gaining customers trust and loyalty in how well you do your job is more important especially since auto mechanics/techs have that "crooked " label to shake off, doesn't mean I chased every single thread and polished everything i removed though.

 

[Trey T]

Labor time and labor rate (fixed rate) goes hand-in-hand.

We all see mechanic work is typically a fixed rate of about $100/hr. This rate is set for senior mechanic, and junior or mid-level mechanic suppose to be lower. Not all job requires senior level of service but shops/dealers don't change the rate; i.e. changing brake pads is a junior level task. The junior mechanic will likely to spend more time than what's the book estimated, which is fine because the high labor rate will offset the time, and it will all equal out (junior guy gets paid less than the senior mechanic).

 

[sberry]

I really don't want Junior changing brake pads.

 

[Trey T]

well, it depends how much the labor rate for junior mechanic. If we assume $100/hr senior, $75/hr mid-level, $50/hr junior.

If the junior gets paid $20/hr for his salary, he better know how to change brake pads. If not, that's just a really sad industry. obviously I don't work in the auto industry, but come on sberry.... wrenches, micrometer, brake grease, brake cleaner, cutting rotor, bleeding, bedding ... that's a junior level stuff.

Please don't tell me junior level is just changing oil and rotate tires.

 

[tjohnsonr10]

Lots of great comments here. General consensus is it seems labor guides don't usually correlate to real labor times unless you have done that specific job before. Also, labor time doesn't have much at all to do with quality.

I am mostly just trying to gauge my own skill.

This weekend for example, I was getting VERY frustrated with an AC job on an 02 civic. New compressor, condenser, expansion valve, and receiver drier, flush all lines, recharge. Job honestly took me close to 12 hours when book time was like 5-7. EVERYTHING had to come apart to do that job and was battling little issues that pop up on 13 year old cars. That being said I am pretty sure I could do the job the second go round in at least 4 hours less.

I think my main take away from this thread is to work smart and do good work and not worry about anything else. I don't have to worry about beating labor time to keep my job or keep my shop open, but that being said I do try and do the work as quickly as possible so I can finish and sell the car.

My weak point is DEFINITELY still diagnostics. You guys have any recommendations for forums, websites, or books on auto diagnostics? I have learned from just googling and trial and error.

Look forward to your responses!

 

[BDT/NWMN]

Lots of great comments here. General consensus is it seems labor guides don't usually correlate to real labor times unless you have done that specific job before. Also, labor time doesn't have much at all to do with quality.

I am mostly just trying to gauge my own skill.

This weekend for example, I was getting VERY frustrated with an AC job on an 02 civic. New compressor, condenser, expansion valve, and receiver drier, flush all lines, recharge. Job honestly took me close to 12 hours when book time was like 5-7. EVERYTHING had to come apart to do that job and was battling little issues that pop up on 13 year old cars. That being said I am pretty sure I could do the job the second go round in at least 4 hours less.

I think my main take away from this thread is to work smart and do good work and not worry about anything else. I don't have to worry about beating labor time to keep my job or keep my shop open, but that being said I do try and do the work as quickly as possible so I can finish and sell the car.

My weak point is DEFINITELY still diagnostics. You guys have any recommendations for forums, websites, or books on auto diagnostics? I have learned from just googling and trial and error.

Look forward to your responses!

Even with a Tech School Degree and Dealership factory training classes, I still studied the service manuals on a regular basis..
Still do, I buy Factory books used via the internet; or at a minimum a Hayes or Chilton manual for any vehicle I own or work on... There are also CDs available for a host of machines. There are subscription websites that are a godsend for shops that can justify the costs, but you would have to justify that cost for your own needs...

The Chilton and Hayes are geared for do it yourselfers, and offer good explanations for their low price... Bonus fact is they are easy to find..

 

[WhiffySpark]

well, it depends how much the labor rate for junior mechanic. If we assume $100/hr senior, $75/hr mid-level, $50/hr junior.

If the junior gets paid $20/hr for his salary, he better know how to change brake pads. If not, that's just a really sad industry. obviously I don't work in the auto industry, but come on sberry.... wrenches, micrometer, brake grease, brake cleaner, cutting rotor, bleeding, bedding ... that's a junior level stuff.

Please don't tell me junior level is just changing oil and rotate tires.

I've never been in a shop that has different labor rates for different levels. They all charged one flat price wether an $8.50 tire changer did it or a $38 flat rate tech

 

[DodgeMech]

sometimes i wonder "how the hell did they come up with this time", either way, as in something i figured would pay 6 tenths pays 1.2, then something i figure that should pay 2.3 pays 6 tenths....

 

[tjohnsonr10]

Even with a Tech School Degree and Dealership factory training classes, I still studied the service manuals on a regular basis..
Still do, I buy Factory books used via the internet; or at a minimum a Hayes or Chilton manual for any vehicle I own or work on... There are also CDs available for a host of machines. There are subscription websites that are a godsend for shops that can justify the costs, but you would have to justify that cost for your own needs...

The Chilton and Hayes are geared for do it yourselfers, and offer good explanations for their low price... Bonus fact is they are easy to find..

I have definitely thought about stuff like alldata/haynes/chilton, but usually can't justify the price.

Basically I buy and sell about a car a week and so its not quite enough volume to justify a subscription/book. Most of my research comes from reading forums, but maybe haynes manual can be justified if I can find them used. Hmmm...

 

[GTA Matt]

Not paying attention to book time when you are flat rate is akin to owning a store and not keeping track of what you are paying for the merchandise and what you are charging for it. This is how you make your money, it should not be taken lightly. Know and understand what you are about to do and what steps need to be taken to accomplish it. I've noticed that excess time spent on a vehicle by a tech rarely is because they are being very careful. It's because they don't know wtf they are doing or don't have the proper tools...

I work on far too many different makes, models and problems to wait until the second or third time to actually make money on them, and trust me, I get stuff no one else will or can touch. Time gets beat, or worse case scenario, matched the first time. The more a job pays, the more time you can make on it. You always have to be thinking many steps ahead and stay organized. And the tools.... having the proper and large assortment of tools aids immensely in your proficiency. Its not easy and takes years and a lot of hard work. Many can't do it...

 

[Trey T]

I've never been in a shop that has different labor rates for different levels. They all charged one flat price wether an $8.50 tire changer did it or a $38 flat rate tech

No, I haven't seen it either. Again, those rates are set for senior level mechanics. In these type of industry, it doesn't make sense to have variable labor rate because it create confusion to customer and operators. However, I believe a good business owner need to understand those basic "contractual service" idea, bc that's how you understand the risk and outcome of a given job, to determine if it's profitable or not.

variable labor rate is common in professional servicing (i.e. engineering/construction, attorney office, medical office, accounting office, etc...).

 

[MikeF2316]

well, it depends how much the labor rate for junior mechanic. If we assume $100/hr senior, $75/hr mid-level, $50/hr junior.

If the junior gets paid $20/hr for his salary, he better know how to change brake pads. If not, that's just a really sad industry. obviously I don't work in the auto industry, but come on sberry.... wrenches, micrometer, brake grease, brake cleaner, cutting rotor, bleeding, bedding ... that's a junior level stuff.

Please don't tell me junior level is just changing oil and rotate tires.

Plus changing brakes is one of the easier jobs to do, and very boring too. So it's often given to the junior techs. Fortunately on most cars it's easy for a more senior tech to make sure it's done correctly with a quick inspection, and if there is an error it's simple to correct before the wheel goes on. I find these days there are so many brake pads that are so similar that making sure that the pads are 100% match for what's coming off is often one of the most overlooked steps.

 

[WhiffySpark]

Plus changing brakes is one of the easier jobs to do, and very boring too. So it's often given to the junior techs. Fortunately on most cars it's easy for a more senior tech to make sure it's done correctly with a quick inspection, and if there is an error it's simple to correct before the wheel goes on. I find these days there are so many brake pads that are so similar that making sure that the pads are 100% match for what's coming off is often one of the most overlooked steps.

No brakes are gravy jobs. That's why your "top tech" does it. Never seen a junior do brake jobs unless senior is so backed up they can't get to it

I love doing brake jobs. 15 minutes for an hour or more pay? Bring them on

 

[DodgeMech]

No brakes are gravy jobs. That's why your "top tech" does it. Never seen a junior do brake jobs unless senior is so backed up they can't get to it

I love doing brake jobs. 15 minutes for an hour or more pay? Bring them on

you mean you don't grease the pins, apply disc brake quiet to the pads, and the real labor part...cut the rotors?

 

[WhiffySpark]

you mean you don't grease the pins, apply disc brake quiet to the pads, and the real labor part...cut the rotors?

I grease and clean. Remove and replace no cutting. We don't even have a lathe

It doesn't make sense anymore with how cheap rotors are

 

[DodgeMech]

people keep saying that, but we cut the hell out of them...the way i see it, the good factory rotor is a lot less likely to warp as easy as the chinesium one from o'reilly's

 

[WhiffySpark]

people keep saying that, but we cut the hell out of them...the way i see it, the good factory rotor is a lot less likely to warp as easy as the chinesium one from o'reilly's

You're also in a dealer vs I'm in an independent shop. I've never had an issue with a warped rotor out of the box or even for warranty. When I was at national chain we cut every ******* rotor simply due to lower cost to customer. They charged $15 no matter what

There's better things for us to spend $8k on in an independent shop.

Now next day at work I'm going to have 5 warped rotors in a row

 

[DodgeMech]

yeah, me too...i haven't done brakes in a while...i'm sure i'll have a few complaints of "shakes on decel" on tuesday now haha

 

[jsaw]

I love doing brake jobs. 15 minutes for an hour or more pay? Bring them on [/QUOTE]

In the rust belt you will spend more than 15 minutes dealing with rusty parts, unless you replace the calipers

 

[willyswonka]

I don't work flat rate any more, but do take pride in being able to beat labor times. But I also got a reputation as the electrical diag guy in our shop. I never beat the book on those jobs. But it all depends on how you work and what kind of work you do. I started out working at a Sears Auto. I didn't have a week there where I didn't average better than book time. But that's because all I did was tires and oil changes. If book says .5 hours for an oil change and you can do it in .2 but you do 20 of them in a day, you're beating the pants off book time. Now I work in a high line independent german shop. I don't start beating the book until the third or fourth time I see a job these days. But I also do much better work than I used to. Anyone can do a 5 minute oil change on a Toyota. But a 993 turbo? I've never even looked at what the book time for a service is. It takes however long it takes to do it right.

At Sears every fastener came off and went back on with an impact. Now? I don't even touch air tools on re-assembly. If I did I'd get fired and deserve it.

 

[WhiffySpark]

I love doing brake jobs. 15 minutes for an hour or more pay? Bring them on

In the rust belt you will spend more than 15 minutes dealing with rusty parts, unless you replace the calipers[/QUOTE]

I live and work in the rust belt.. The only rusty parts would be a bleeder screw but you're not touching that for a brake job