how much can i save by Building my self

[sherrod624]

I'm getting ready to start building a 2600sq' house and 30x50 garage my self on land that i already own. i live in eastern nc. I know I'm going to save some money by not using a gc and doing alot myself, i just dont know how much. I was wondering if anyone in the trade knew better than my guess at just how much i'm looking at saving. I plan on subing the foundation, framing, insulation, drywal, and hvac. Me and my family will do the rest. we'll do the vinyl, pluming, electrical, roofing, floors, trim, cabinets, and whatever else im forgeting.
Ive got a friend that just had a GC built him a 2500sq' along the same trim level im planning on for 102 per', that includes him having to purchase the lot.

could anyone give me any information on this? or even direct me to another forum that is aimed alittle more towards my situation?

thanks for you guys help. i got a feeling im gonna be taking alllllot of pictures soon.

 

[Cyberbear]

Generally speaking w/o knowing the building costs in your area, you are wise to not attempt to do work that takes years to learn in the trades. Depending on your experience and skill level, using your large project as a OJT DIY experience can and will have its challenges. You may wish to research the plumbing and electrical if you've not done this type of work before. Otherwise, based on my personal experiences after building several garages and rehabilitating a couple of homes, the minor other items can easily be accomplished by a talented homeowner/builder, which is why nature created building inspectors, if you choose to go that way.
If you plan on using borrowed money to build your home and garage, and using that as collateral, the lender may require all work to be done by licensed contractors. You'll find this out as you go along, but doing the detail work yourself can save a large amount of funding, although it can extend the completion time frame of your project.

 

[sherrod624]

i have no question about the skill, knowledge or the amount of labor that will be involved, I am fully aware. I'm not licensed but am a qualified electritian My family will be helping alot and between us we have built 4 houses(many years ago) and in the past few years have built a 60x60 garage/home, two 30x40 fully finished garage/mancaves, and just this past summer added on a 26x32 living room onto my parents house. But none of these jobs have been on my dime. all of those stuctures we did from ground up(except for sheetrock, we dont like sheetrock...)

I have already been to the bank and have found a lender that will "work with me" to help me get things done this way. I own the land already so they'll use that for collateral. I also have an aquantance that is a contractor and will put is name on the loan at no charge if i have to. I'd rather not involve him if i don't have to.

I have just got my plan's finalized this week and will be getting permits and quotes on things in the following weeks. I'm not trying to build a cheap house but i am trying to balance betwen subing things for the time aspect or diy so that i can get a better quality product but keep it all withing the budget that i am shooting for.

i guess i was just hoping for some knowledge own what to expect as far as savings.

 

[sberry]

I plan on subing the foundation, framing, insulation, drywal, and hvac.

That is most of it. It really isn't building it yourself.

 

[Slednut]

You will save a lot, I just did an addition of 26x30 to my attached garage with new living space above it I had a GC do the foundation , slab, plumbing and framing. I was going to do the insulation and drywall but after figuring the cost of materials compared to someone installing it the cost was so minimal it was a no brainer to have it done.

I installed the mini-splits and did all the outside stuff. I had help with the electrical and I did all the painting and finish work. It was estimated to cost me $120,000 I got a loan for $70,000 thinking when it ran out I would just build as I got the cash. I was able to finish the entire project with the $70,000.

 

[Kamn]

I think he was asking for guidance on dollar figures

The numbers you are looking for can be higher or lower depending on what the trades are charging. But you can get your self a ball park figure by calling the trades and getting estimates on the work you plan on doing. Add in the amount that you GC is charging you and divide by SqFt. Then do a calculation with your numbers (the jobs you are going to do) and calculate, then you have a difference.........ex. GC full job = $110per sqft and with your work = $90 sqft

Just takes a little time until you get some quotes from the trades, also have drawings ready for more accurate quotes

 

[audioworks04]

I largest worry with a project of your scale is the legality of it, you need to be a licensed GC, otherwise you could end up with huge fines and a stop work order.
Personally I would find someone to GC the house and do the shop on your own.
Really it depends on how your work schedule is, in my mind time is always money. So if you have to take a month off of work did you really just save atleast 4k in the building process by doing that? I know a few people that thought they would save money by trying to GC their own projects and ended up either costing them more, taking 4x aslong as planned or giving up and finding someone to finish the work.

 

[Kamn]

I type a little slow

when I was typing there was only one response

 

[theoldwizard1]

Being you own GC and doing some of the work yourself, only works it you have a VERY FLEXIBLE time line !

Years a go, a co-worker was building a new house. He had been his own GC on 1 or 2 other builds, so he knew what he was getting into. Monday AM, the excavation contractor never shows up. Several phones lead him to start quickly looking for a new guy to dig the hole ... several days later ! Of course now, he had to push back on foundation contractors, the framers, etc. etc.

You will save a lot, I just did an addition of 26x30 to my attached garage with new living space above it I had a GC do the foundation , slab, plumbing and framing. I was going to do the insulation and drywall but after figuring the cost of materials compared to someone installing it the cost was so minimal it was a no brainer to have it done.

SMART !

You really need to do this for every task you think you ca tackle yourself !

 

[joeysh03]

Do the insulation yourself. Easiest thing to do and one of the biggest money savers.

 

[logical]

I largest worry with a project of your scale is the legality of it, you need to be a licensed GC, otherwise you could end up with huge fines and a stop work order.
Personally I would find someone to GC the house and do the shop on your own.
Really it depends on how your work schedule is, in my mind time is always money. So if you have to take a month off of work did you really just save atleast 4k in the building process by doing that? I know a few people that thought they would save money by trying to GC their own projects and ended up either costing them more, taking 4x aslong as planned or giving up and finding someone to finish the work.

Not if it is his own house. Being the Owner-Builder is not at all uncommon and perfectly legal in most if not all areas.

I was the owner-builder of the house I currently live in. An Owner-Builder basically does the GC's job and the job of one or more sub-contractors.

 

[sherrod624]

the way my work schedule is i work 7 days a week up until feb-march, then i go on 4 day weeks until august. i also have around 6 weeks of vacation to take during the 4 day weeks. i plan on having the foundation and framing finished by the time i get on 4 days. I am in no particulary hurry to finish but i would love to get it dried in quick and am shooting for around 1.5-2 years to complete. i currently live in a 600sq' house right across the street from where ill be building and with my wife having our first child in a few weeks im sure she hopes ill finish it up sooner than later.

i would love to do the foundation and framing my self, as we have with the other houses but the old men that are helping me are only getting older, and like to point at things. I'm not intrested in being the only young man around if i framed it all my self.

when we did the addition on to my parents over the summer it was cheaper to have someone do the insulation than we could accuire the materials ourselves. im also thinking about haveing spray foam insulation and dont know of a way to do that myself.

if i can save enough money building the house then i will go ahead with the building. I'd have to finish the house off less than $80 sq' to go ahead with the bulding. otherwise ill be in the 18x30 basement until i can afford to to the building.

I guess ill realy find out after i start getting quotes together

 

[pmiranda]

Please get a licensed electrician to install the panel, meter socket, and do the connection to the utility. Also get a pro to inspect your first few wiring runs to make sure you haven't missed anything. Same for the water meter or well pump.
Just being your own GC will probably save 10% but it's going to cost you time. Of course, if you were going to try to be around to see the work get done you might as well. Make sure all the subs you hire have their own insurance/bonds and all that junk.

 

[schmelpboy]

I can't tell you about the house, but I can imagine you'd save a ton doing it yourself if you deem yourself qualified. For example, I'm building a 31x35 garage. I got a few different quotes, the cheapest being 16,500 to just put up the stick. That didn't include concrete, materials, windows, doors, openers, unfinished inside. Basically, 4 walls a roof for 16,500. That's stupid money for doing very little real work.
My dad is building his retirement home right now; He's done everything so far. He had the plans drawn up from what was in his head; He took them to a GC whom quoted him a price for the completed job. My father had the entire materials list, all of the contractors lined up, etc. He decided to GC it himself. When all was said and done, the GC was paying himself 175,000. Stupid.

 

[bcoke]

I just had finished a 3500 sg ft home with attached 3 car garage with full attic, I acted as my own GC and did some work wiring [electric, media, security ,internet] passed on what I hated to do……..I had a great builder who was willing to do as much or little as I wanted, we had great communication and once he realized I had previous experience as you have he let me GC it with his advice always asked for and listened to! Now a great big caveat, I was retired and had time to chase subs, run for materials that would hold up progress use the internet to get bet prices for the quality materials…….all that being said I probably saved 90K or 20% on the total cost of the home and felt I got better materials and workmanship by overseeing the daily work!!! The most important part was the insulation which I helped the crew as the quality of that [no voids or half assed sealing] will pay dividends over and over here in the NorthEast!…You seem to have the knowledge GO FOR IT the satisfaction factor is great and changes/problems can be corrected before they get expensive! bobby coke

 

[sherrod624]

all that being said I probably saved 90K or 20% on the total cost of the home and felt I got better materials and workmanship by overseeing the daily work!!!

great to know!

i figured that the average new construction around here runs anywere from $100-$120sq' if i saved 15% by acting as my own GC and mabey 10-20% buy doing the other things myself. i should be in the ballpart of $75-$85sq'.

 

[matt_i]

Couple of things. You have to make sure you don't make expensive errors along the way that eat into the "savings". Likely the trades/services you hire will quote you more than they would an established local GC who they likely rely on for steady work. Same for materials, you will likely pay more being a person who is buying for 1 project rather than a person who is buying every 3rd day during the main building season. Typically a GC is supposed to get around 20% profit in these parts, I imagine that screwups cut into that while corners they can cut, or deals they can strike, within reason, add to it.

Personally, I would do your own build not for the pure money savings but to make it "good". That you know you will be living with the end result automatically makes it "better" due to a higher leve of due diligence on every facet, from not burying a bunch of trash in the foundation trenches, to selecting a higher grade material since you are not paying as much in labor. The savings is then recouped as the years go by, that you did a good job with "better to premium" materials will eventually pay out as a cheaper build might be replacing windows, roofs, or some weatherproofing detail that was neglected.

 

[larry_g]

am shooting for around 1.5-2 years to complete. i currently live in a 600sq' house right across the street from where ill be building

I was going to say that you need to add in the cost of having a second place to live in during the time your building. May or may not apply to your case. There is also the cost of borrowing money an extended amount of time while your building vs having the house built in a shorter time.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[bazzateer]

Just get some quotes for the work you intend to do for yourself. Whatever the labour cost is will be your saving, or thereabouts.

 

[Coolabah]

Not if it is his own house. Being the Owner-Builder is not at all uncommon and perfectly legal in most if not all areas.

I was the owner-builder of the house I currently live in. An Owner-Builder basically does the GC's job and the job of one or more sub-contractors.

I've been an owner builder too and my main comment on that is that all the trades KNOW that this is pretty much the only job you will be using them on so there will be no "repeat business" unlike a GC so I found I was continually bumped down the list eg excavation delayed due to weather , concretor kept putting me off and did jobs for his usual list of GC's first, same thing all through construction eg 2-4 weeks gap between one step and another instead of next day even though I had lined them up , I kept getting bumped, so it took way longer than it could have . OP- YMMV

 

[PeterT]

I just had finished a 3500 sg ft home with attached 3 car garage with full attic, I acted as my own GC and did some work wiring [electric, media, security ,internet] passed on what I hated to do……..I had a great builder who was willing to do as much or little as I wanted, we had great communication and once he realized I had previous experience as you have he let me GC it with his advice always asked for and listened to! Now a great big caveat, I was retired and had time to chase subs, run for materials that would hold up progress use the internet to get bet prices for the quality materials…….all that being said I probably saved 90K or 20% on the total cost of the home and felt I got better materials and workmanship by overseeing the daily work!!! The most important part was the insulation which I helped the crew as the quality of that [no voids or half assed sealing] will pay dividends over and over here in the NorthEast!…You seem to have the knowledge GO FOR IT the satisfaction factor is great and changes/problems can be corrected before they get expensive! bobby coke

Great post and spot on from my experience. Saving money is part of it, ensuring quality materials is important and just having input day to day makes a world of difference in the finished product.

 

[DonPowers]

I hired out speciality stuff like concrete, installation of my electrical service because the power co would only connect if I had a licensed electrician and to close the building in because at times six hands are better than two.

Being mostly retired with time on my hands and having a background in project management I felt I was up to the task.

Also established a LLC for setting up accounts with the various building supply houses, many of which only sell wholesale. The lumber supply delivers to the job at no charge for orders greater than $275 and the accounts allow me to purchase items at a discount. For some items, however, the big box stores have better pricing.

The way I look at it, having a crew of two people for forty hours a week can cost between $2,000 to $3,000 per week, depending on labor rates in your area. I use this savings for buying materials and tools .

 

[C2 Turbo]

, I kept getting bumped, so it took way longer than it could have . OP- YMMV

I am just finishing building a custom 9000 sq/ft house and had a GC/builder do the first 60% of the house on a 10% commission.

The guy is a builder by trade and made enough money on framing the dang house. It took him 8 months to frame it (yeah I know and yeah I know taken big time ) but live and learn.

The guy never pushed any of the SC to finish their job on time. Insulation took 7 weeks (foam insulation), Dry wall took 7 weeks. As dry wall was finishing, I realized, flooring and trim people weren't even lined up.

Had big time problem with the brick guys. Two Mexican crews came over and I had to let them go as they had no friggen clue what they were doing.

The builder is pretty well known in the area and for the past 3 months, he couldn't find/make any brick layers to come work on the house.

So for the past 4 months, I am managing the flooring/trim/brick/back deck (1000 sq-ft with 18,000 lbs steel), cabinets, plumbing, septic tank and driveway, all on my own.

I did fix his fees so that he stays on with the house so that SC don't think I am all by myself not to mention the warranty aspect of him.

Yes you can do it but like ^ said, lining up the SC's won't be an easy job.

Hope that helps.

 

[rsanter]

Just being the GC and hiring all the subs directly will save you money and you will be able to control the quality of the build better as they answer to you and not the GC who may cover things up to make his life easier.
The issue is do you know good subs to hire?
My dad built his own house and it saved him a ton of money. However he knew a number of guys that could come do the stages of work. He knew they were reliable and would do a good job for him

Now if you do some of the work yourself you will save even more

If it was me, I would have the foundation, framing, roof, insulation, exterior and drywall done.
A friend would do the wiring and HVAC and I would likly do all the finish work myself.

Do what works for you and I would look at building it as energy efficient as possible day one as it will save you money for years to come

Bob

 

[T_R]

I saved about 50% on my garage. Contractors in the area were at about $15k plus excavation. I'm at $8k including $1k of excavation and it's about done all I have to do is paint some trim and hang the garage door, all materials have been purchased. I did all the work, no contractors except concrete.

 

[Coolabah]

Just being the GC and hiring all the subs directly will save you money and you will be able to control the quality of the build better as they answer to you and not the GC who may cover things up to make his life easier.
The issue is do you know good subs to hire?
<snip>
Now if you do some of the work yourself you will save even more

<snip>
Do what works for you and I would look at building it as energy efficient as possible day one as it will save you money for years to come

Bob

I know I am not in the USA so things might be different there, in fact probably are but this is my ( bitter and twisted ) experience FWIW:
1) the subs either quoted big , or if they were cheap it was because they were Krapp and I had a heck of a time dealing with that and getting them to make good- so maybe no saving as where I live , there is no loyalty or mercy given if you are NOT a GC ! I kinda think they are more "respectfully scared" of a GC as a bad rep from him is badder than a whinge from me ??
2) good subs- yes this is the issue I had some great ones and some that must have bought their licence from some "Nigerian mail order " and how do you tell until it is too late ? Word of mouth is worth what you paid for it sometimes as a "great cheap job" from the recommender often results in a tradesman trying to recoup HIS Losses on THAT last job , with ME
3) yes absolutely agree - did what I could myself and saved huge amounts. But , could I still have done this whilst having a GC supervise ? Dunno

I do think I am ahead money-wise but let me tell you this - ( edit : last home build job ) my 20 ft x 40 ft brick garage took 16 months from ground-break to completion. I was thinking , 3-4 months tops at the start. Went through 3 wives in that time LOL

 

[MushCreek]

My situation is somewhat unique. I hired a GC for site work and concrete work. He also coached me on ICF, and I hired his crew to fill the forms with concrete. I acted as the GC, and did all of the rest of the work except drywall. The best part of working with a GC is that he was a great source for getting the names of good subs, and the best places to buy materials. I was able to use his name when calling subs, so I got better service than I might have otherwise.

Our house is 1444 square feet, and cost about $90/ sq ft with me doing nearly all of the work. BUT- our house is built to a pretty high standard with premium materials and a lot of detail. The same house hired out would have been about $200/sq ft. Also, I have a fully insulated dry basement that just needs drywall and electric to be living space, so I could double the size of the house very inexpensively.

The only thing I will warn about is TIME. I worked almost completely alone, which is NOT very efficient. It took me 3-1/2 years, working full time on the house. Many jobs are about 4 times faster with two people than with one.

 

[gungatim]

I built my 3600 sqft 2-story with walkout, high end everything, for $185k. I GC'd, did flooring, cabinets, finish electric, paint and trim myself. solid oak, 2-fireplaces, granite, tile, etc.

builder wanted $350k and wanted to use much lower end appliances/fixtures, etc....this was in '97.

Only problem I had was finding a mason for the brick...nobody wants to work a single house, they want to do a whole neighborhood at once...that was a pain...

 

[hh76]

I was just talking to a neighbor about this. They said they hired a general who charged them a flat fee of 30,000 to oversee the build of their $250,000ish house. They did handle all the financials, including writing checks to the subs.

This was not a typical general/homeowner relationship, but it does provide a good ballpark.

 

[justanengineer]

Very little or nothing, you're trying to DIY the most competitive parts of the build. If you hire decent contractors they're going to be buying quality materials at the local yards far below what you could and installing them far quicker than you ever could too. The mason I'm working with now for example is laying bricks and making profit for less than I could even buy the brick alone for. As Joe Blow homeowner you'll never approach their material price unless 1. your contractor's screwing you or 2. he's an idiot paying way too much. JME with the family sawmill but the 5-10% we'd cut when folks demand a "quantity" discount pales in comparison to the contractor discount (~30%). Similarly, claims of getting better quality materials by DIYing show the customer's inexperience with contracts and managing people. Claims of getting better quality installation are similarly bunk IME, usually folks who think they can outdo a good contractor really don't know what theyre doing hiring contractors or building homes. If I had a nickel for every DIY job I've fixed that were done by so-called "knowledgeable" homeowners I'd have retired years ago.

 

[sberry]

I had a nickel for every DIY job I've fixed that were done by so-called "knowledgeable" homeowners I'd have retired years ago.

So for all your experience and education you didn't make a nickel and this is how one becomes an expert?

First off if you are going to do most of the real work look for a good simple helper. Find a labor/helper type that can drive a pickup truck, run errands and help, hold, shovel a little, saw off a 2x4.
I might scour the place for a lead guy so when it has to go fast its ready with layouts and the helper can be shared etc. There is a difference between getting some help and hiring/subs. I hire a little cement on occasion when it requires more men anyway. I just did a roof and helpers/labor didn't work out and simply had to bite the bullet and do work I would normally have supervised or pushed. It was a problem, hired 3 or 4 man days and then had my Brother fo a couple ram days and a tech type works for me help.
Actually those guys are easier, they aint built for roof tear off but they are 2x as smart as average roof worker so they get good fast.

Similarly, claims of getting better quality materials by DIYing show the customer's inexperience with contracts and managing people. Claims of getting better quality installation are similarly bunk IME,

I agree with this as a blanket statement. The same type of thing is often heard about auto repair and parts.

 

[Notgrownup]

I live in Snow Hill so we are close by... You can pretty much double the material cost and that will give you an idea... If you spend more than $2500.00 Lowes will discount up to 25%...That is what I did... $7000.00 was what I paid for a 24x24 2 windows, 1 garage and 1 walk-in door, vinyl siding, pre fab trusses, shingles, This included $3200 for the concrete floor with 2 rows of cinder blocks (done by a concrete contractor). I built the shop myself.
This amount didn't include, electrical, insulation, lighting or finished walls or paint... Strictly a shell.
The work I did myself and the concrete I got quoted to the tune of about $21K

 

[sberry]

But, contractors do not always run around getting great pricing s they can pass it on to customers, they get it so they can mark it up. I don't shop for 2 shocks to save them money over what they could buy across the counter for, I shop so I can mark it up to that price without robbing my customers, if I was seriously in the biz would be selling parts at list.

 

[sberry]

But this whole thing is back to the start, If one farms out the foundation, walls, roof the windows the cement, the insulation then comes in and hangs some paint and cabinets he bought he really didn't "build it himself".

 

[stikman56]

I would never do it. We're having one built and still the work required by me is HUGE. I'm getting tired and just want it done. Now I'm painting it. I wonder how they make any money building this 2829 sq. ft. home with Vaulted ceilings, 30 year roof, lap siding, his and her sinks etc, pretty nice inside, 3-car garage,for a starting price of $148.900 to be honest. They're using pretty good products IMO as well. They almost have to be getting bulk discounts on materials...

 

[Notgrownup]

When I built my home 13 years ago I got it done for $53.00 a Sq.Ft...2 years later it would've been $70.00 just because of concrete. then another 4 years $90.00 because of Lumber...
If you can GC yourself, make sure you know your building inspectors... My 2 county Inspectors are great... They helped me a lot through the building of my Shop ...
They will also have tips, referrals if you need, Stupid rules to abide by etc...They are there to protect you...
I thought about being my own GC but at $53.00 a sq.ft I said Screw that...
Finding reputable subs is Key...Ask, ask and ask....I have a friend of the family that knows a lot of subs...If you know somebody like that it's great... The material suppliers are good for referral sometimes also... That is how I got my 3 bids for my Shop concrete work.
I am in the middle of building a 12x24 sunroom right now... I am technically the GC but my builder is taking care of getting the subs Here are some picture of the house, the shop and the latest progress shot on the Sunroom form yesterday...

 

[gungatim]

Very little or nothing, you're trying to DIY the most competitive parts of the build. If you hire decent contractors they're going to be buying quality materials at the local yards far below what you could and installing them far quicker than you ever could too. The mason I'm working with now for example is laying bricks and making profit for less than I could even buy the brick alone for. As Joe Blow homeowner you'll never approach their material price unless 1. your contractor's screwing you or 2. he's an idiot paying way too much. JME with the family sawmill but the 5-10% we'd cut when folks demand a "quantity" discount pales in comparison to the contractor discount (~30%). Similarly, claims of getting better quality materials by DIYing show the customer's inexperience with contracts and managing people. Claims of getting better quality installation are similarly bunk IME, usually folks who think they can outdo a good contractor really don't know what theyre doing hiring contractors or building homes. If I had a nickel for every DIY job I've fixed that were done by so-called "knowledgeable" homeowners I'd have retired years ago.

you sound just like these dealer mechanics on here that think nobody but them can work on a car, and everybody else's parts are inferior.

sorry, but I know where the contractors get their stuff. I know what they pay. my Uncle was a contractor for years, I know the game and I know where they make their money...And yes, I can outdo a good contractor a lot of time. it doesn't take a pro to install marble tile, or hang cabinets, or do drywall, lay carpet, paint, put in a garage door, or even frame and set trusses...etc. this stuff is general labor, not rocket science.

If I had a nickel every time I read how only the licensed pro's should do any work on here....

 

[Notgrownup]

you sound just like these dealer mechanics on here that think nobody but them can work on a car, and everybody else's parts are inferior.

sorry, but I know where the contractors get their stuff. I know what they pay. my Uncle was a contractor for years, I know the game and I know where they make their money...And yes, I can outdo a good contractor a lot of time. it doesn't take a pro to install marble tile, or hang cabinets, or do drywall, lay carpet, paint, put in a garage door, or even frame and set trusses...etc. this stuff is general labor, not rocket science.

If I had a nickel every time I read how only the licensed pro's should do any work on here....

My neighbor just got a premium garage built by a premium GC and didn't get any bids other than his... He was then flabbergasted to see that what ever the Sub that was framing the place for $12000 cost him $24000.00 I said "Dumba$$" did you think the GC was getting rich off of not charging you?
I laughed a little...

 

[sherrod624]

i don't care about the claim of "building it myself" I do however want the most i can get for the amount I'm willing to spend all while doing it in a timley manner. the house i live in now is getting smaller and smaller. If it satisfies you sberry, i do plan doing the roof, windows, doors, and building all the cabinets my self. I have a cousin that is having a 2700sq' house built currently and all his cabinets and built-ins are costing him 35k. Thats just rediculous.

-Notgrownup
I live in sims and work at a tobacco factory in farmville.

 

[Notgrownup]

Sims, then you should be able to find some good country boys to do decent work at a decent price... Get 3 bids for very aspect of what you want subbed... look at reference, call the previous customers...You know , measure twice... Ounce of prevention, Never get a 2nd chance... etc, all that BS....