Critique my Boiler Heater Board.

[Joe Cool]

This is my first attempt at installing an in-floor heating system into my new garage and below is my boiler system layout based on what I have learned so far from what I have read here on GJ.

I still have to layout the lines for the the feeder but the plan there is run it from the the Tee connection on the expansion tank and run around the boiler.

I am looking for feedback on the design and if anything should be relocated or added to the system to improve the layout.

Thanks in advance.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Looks nice and neat to me,other than Id get rid of the black pipe fittings and *******.

 

[Slowgsr]

I agree. Best thing you can do is to follow manufactures recommended installation methods design and materials

 

[theoldwizard1]

An inspector might nick for having the temperature/pressure relief valve dumping too high up. On a water heater, you have to have a pipe that exits down to less than 6" off the floor.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Looks nice and neat to me,other than Id get rid of the black pipe fittings and *******.

Hopefully it is galvanized pipe, not black pipe. Where the galvanized and copper meet, there should be a dielectric union.


Note all of the elbows and tees are shark bites. I can't solder for **** either !!

 

[dfiler2]

Looks good, many people miss how important it is to pump away from the expansion tank. Here's a little info.

http://www.healthyheating.com/Page 55/Presentations/Boiler Piping.pdf

 

[Joe Cool]

An inspector might nick for having the temperature/pressure relief valve dumping to high up. On a water heater, you have to have a pipe that exits down to less than 6" off the floor.

Once it is actually installed I will be finalizing the location of the relief pipe so that it looks clean and doesn't interfere with the rest of the system.

 

[Joe Cool]

Hopefully it is galvanized pipe, not black pipe. Where the galvanized and copper meet, there should be a dielectric union.

It actually is all black pipe. that was what was provided with the kit. I am kicking around the idea of replacing all the lines with copper (either solder or sharkbite - except 1" sharkbite is hard to find locally around here).

 

[Joe Cool]

Looks good, many people miss how important it is to pump away from the expansion tank. Here's a little info.

http://www.healthyheating.com/Page 55/Presentations/Boiler Piping.pdf

Thanks for the info.

 

[gregtwojeeps]

Is there or will there be.... a outlet water temp gauge somewhere ?

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

An inspector might nick for having the temperature/pressure relief valve dumping to high up. On a water heater, you have to have a pipe that exits down to less than 6" off the floor.

I was guessing that he was waiting for the actual runs to be attached before installing the drip leg for the pop off valve,no sense in having it in the way while trying to work on the rest of the install.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Hopefully it is galvanized pipe, not black pipe. Where the galvanized and copper meet, there should be a dielectric union.


Note all of the elbows and tees are shark bites. I can't solder for **** either !!

Thats all black pipe.

 

[Tracs]

Looks nice and neat to me,other than Id get rid of the black pipe fittings and *******.

Why do you say get rid of the black iron? For looks or use? My boiler came with these instructions:

Do not connect dissimilar metals to the inlet and outlet. Dielectric Unions should be used. Another solution is to use brass or cast iron fittings between the boiler and any copper fittings that you may be using. Failure to do so will result in galvanic corrosion and cause the tank to fail over time. This is not covered under the warranty.

 

[RECox286]

Everything looks very professional on your board:

Zone valves in case the circulator needs changing.

I see nothing wrong with using what the mfg provides.

However:

I would provide a stop in case the expansion tank goes

bad.

How do you intend to fill the system ? There should be

a stop between the boiler and one side of the feeds/returns,

else the fluid will simply circulate from fill line thru boiler then

out the flush line. (Add a stop at one of the union locations

nearest the boiler.)

I would rather see the circulator on the return side to keep it

in cooler liquid. (My system is 25 or 30 years old, and I have

not had to change the pump, but then again I have not had

to hook up to the domestic water for make-up either. I have

had to repair some valve leaks about 5 years ago and add a 50/50

mix of distilled water and the best boiler anti-freeze I could find.)


Last comment: You may have trouble hooking feeder and return

lines to your manifolds...it would help to have off set one of them

slightly so you could have all the feeders/returns hook straight up

rather than having to kink some of them. Off setting the bottom

manifold will make it easier to wrench on the upper fittings, too.

Good first try, looks like you gave it a lot of thought.

Uncle Bob


P.S.

It is hard to see some details with only the one straight on view, but

I think I saw all the obvious things that need be done. It is a long

time since I did my system. You might want to brush up on soldering,

b/c I have it in my mind that Shark Bites rely on O-rings and they won't

last forever, leaving you with leaky plumbing.

 

[theoldwizard1]

It actually is all black pipe. that was what was provided with the kit. I am kicking around the idea of replacing all the lines with copper (either solder or sharkbite - except 1" sharkbite is hard to find locally around here).

If you are serious, watch a few videos, get some pipe and elbows and practice. 1" shark bites are CRAZY expensive !!

 

[gregtwojeeps]

It actually is all black pipe. that was what was provided with the kit. I am kicking around the idea of replacing all the lines with copper (either solder or sharkbite - except 1" sharkbite is hard to find locally around here).

Seems like overkill. You have done a nice fit up job. Just put dielectric fittings where the copper/black pipes marry if you would feel better about it. JMO

 

[dfiler2]

What ever you do don't put the pump on the return line, very old school, you are much better off pushing the water through the system rather than trying to **** it through.

A great book by Dan Holohan called "Pumping Away" explains this pretty well.

 

[goneflyin2002]

Looks good!
I sure appreciate the info learned on GJ also.
If the garage is not divided up into multi zones, then I don't think you'll ever need to use all those loop valves. If your loops are all about equal length within reason, it will balance out well.
That black pipe will rust though.

 

[Jackfre]

The one component I would change is the air scoop. There are many many of the Amtrol style you have on your system, but the Spirovent has been superior in operation in my experience.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Why do you say get rid of the black iron? For looks or use? My boiler came with these instructions:

Do not connect dissimilar metals to the inlet and outlet. Dielectric Unions should be used. Another solution is to use brass or cast iron fittings between the boiler and any copper fittings that you may be using. Failure to do so will result in galvanic corrosion and cause the tank to fail over time. This is not covered under the warranty.

Black pipe rusts,galvanized doesnt. Not as fast anyway I havent used dielectric unions in years,and yes dielectric unions do rot out and cause lots of problems.
Ive got water heaters that I installed 20 years ago without dielectric unions that look just like they did the day I installed them.

 

[truckman5000]

You need a valve were your return union is. So you can purge the air out of the system

 

[The FIB]

I wouldn't worry about the black pipe, it will probably outlast the boiler.

 

[jvitez]

Why not use copper pipe for everything? OK, sweating copper is a bit more difficult than using black pipe fittings, but with the trouble I've had with galvanized pipe I'll only use copper or PVC for anything in the future.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=230216

Joe Cool: where are you getting the black pipe? I've found fittings at Princess Auto but they don't sell any lengths of pipe itself.

 

[nickelmore]

Looks good to me. I would swap the black pipe for copper for the cost. Black pipe today is a lot thinner than it use to be.

3/4 copper is not that bad and you do not have any risk of rust.

Also make sure you pipe dope all the threads good, I have an expansion tank that developed a drip and made a mess to try to fix.

 

[dreasoner]

I would use copper as well but that is a personal preference. I find soldering copper easier than threading and fitting black pipe. Most of the boilers I have seen using threaded pipe were black pipe. Copper is much easier to disassemble when doing a piping modification or repair. Use whatever makes you happy.

 

[mygarageone]

Looks good to me. I would swap the black pipe for copper for the cost. Black pipe today is a lot thinner than it use to be.

3/4 copper is not that bad and you do not have any risk of rust.

Also make sure you pipe dope all the threads good, I have an expansion tank that developed a drip and made a mess to try to fix.

I often wonder where people get there information ?

First black pipe is based on schedual 40 , that's the same thickness they have had for 80 yrs and secondly The pipe will not rust with a closed system ! Black pipe has been used and still used for system for ever , as long as it's sealed or closed it will not rust unless you have air in the water all the time.
Other wise cast iron boilers , which have been in service for yrs and yrs would also rust to the point of blockage .

Black pipe does not rust with a closed system . Remove the air and all is well.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

I often wonder where people get there information ?

First black pipe is based on schedual 40 , that's the same thickness they have had for 80 yrs and secondly The pipe will not rust with a closed system ! Black pipe has been used and still used for system for ever , as long as it's sealed or closed it will not rust unless you have air in the water all the time.
Other wise cast iron boilers , which have been in service for yrs and yrs would also rust to the point of blockage .

Black pipe does not rust with a closed system . Remove the air and all is well.

Have you ever torn apart an older boiler that wasnt serviced regularly and didnt have rust inhibitor in the system?
Ive done plenty of them,and yes they do rot.
Last time I checked oxygen was a common ingredient of water.

 

[Joe Cool]

Joe Cool: where are you getting the black pipe? I've found fittings at Princess Auto but they don't sell any lengths of pipe itself.

The extra pieces that I have purchased that were not included in the kit I have bought from Home Depot.

 

[mygarageone]

Have you ever torn apart an older boiler that wasnt serviced regularly and didnt have rust inhibitor in the system?
Ive done plenty of them,and yes they do rot.
Last time I checked oxygen was a common ingredient of water.

There is Oxygen in the water untill it's heated and then it goes out the air vent , I too have removed many cast iron boilers and they won't rust if there is no air in the system , cast iron or black pipe.
I have been doing boiler work for over 40 yrs and I stand by my statement , eliminate the oxygen , no rust.

 

[Joe Cool]

Have you ever torn apart an older boiler that wasnt serviced regularly and didnt have rust inhibitor in the system?
Ive done plenty of them,and yes they do rot.
Last time I checked oxygen was a common ingredient of water.

I spoke with a neighbour regarding concerns about the black pipe rusting and he mentioned that because we run anti-freeze in our lines there is less corrosion. But when I asked what pipe he used he replied with copper.

 

[Joe Cool]

...You may have trouble hooking feeder and return

lines to your manifolds...it would help to have off set one of them

slightly so you could have all the feeders/returns hook straight up

rather than having to kink some of them. Off setting the bottom

manifold will make it easier to wrench on the upper fittings, too.

My plan is to angle the manifold to simplify connecting the PEX lines to it.

 

[gregtwojeeps]

The hospital where I worked had two big 50 year old 125 H.P. Cleaver Brooks gas fired boilers. All of the supply water/condensate return piping attached to the boilers was done in black pipe. The boilers feed water was run through a water softener first, as all boiler feed water should be...to prevent scale buildup in the water lines and the boilers tank/tubes. We had a water treatment rep handling the water treatment for the boilers and cooling tower. ....

Most good boiler manufacturers will recommend the feed water to their units be softened and checked weekly for hardness levels. The little 208 V. 3 ph 24 KW Amerec electric steam generator that provided the steam to the steam rooms where I worked the passed 15 years, had to have a WS on line or the elements would self destruct in one year... just from the sediment buildup in the bottom of the boiler encasing the elements and cooking them. But it got a lot better workout than the average home unit would be getting. JMO

 

[Marcm157]

Looks good. Here is the one I just did in my house. It was my first time using ProPress...

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

There is Oxygen in the water untill it's heated and then it goes out the air vent , I too have removed many cast iron boilers and they won't rust if there is no air in the system , cast iron or black pipe.
I have been doing boiler work for over 40 yrs and I stand by my statement , eliminate the oxygen , no rust.

Maybe on a one tube system it exits the vent,but what about the water replacing it?
And what about a 2 pipe system where the water keeps running in a circle for years?
Ive been around hot water and steam boilers for many years also,ill stick with my story about pipes do rust and leak also!

 

[dfiler2]

No free oxygen in water after it reaches 170, you shouldn't need to be adding water, if you are you have a problem. This is not a steam boiler.

 

[gregtwojeeps]

Technically speaking, it is really not a boiler at all, it is a water heater. A boiler gets hot enough to turn water in to steam and a water heater.... just heats water to any set point temp almost up to boiling point, as needed. JMO

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Technically speaking, it is really not a boiler at all, it is a water heater. A boiler gets hot enough to turn water in to steam and a water heater.... just heats water to any set point temp almost up to boiling point, as needed. JMO

Not so. A boiler can be hot water or steam.

Tommy

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

The hospital where I worked had two big 50 year old 125 H.P. Cleaver Brooks gas fired boilers. All of the supply water/condensate return piping attached to the boilers was done in black pipe. The boilers feed water was run through a water softener first, as all boiler feed water should be...to prevent scale buildup in the water lines and the boilers tank/tubes. We had a water treatment rep handling the water treatment for the boilers and cooling tower. ....

Most good boiler manufacturers will recommend the feed water to their units be softened and checked weekly for hardness levels. The little 208 V. 3 ph 24 KW Amerec electric steam generator that provided the steam to the steam rooms where I worked the passed 15 years, had to have a WS on line or the elements would self destruct in one year... just from the sediment buildup in the bottom of the boiler encasing the elements and cooking them. But it got a lot better workout than the average home unit would be getting. JMO

Problem being the average residential hot water boiler around here never gets anything done with the water until something breaks,then the service guy gets to spend an hr or more just getting the sludge out of the system so it can be flushed out and have clean water and conditioner/rust inhibitor put back in it.
Some of the steam boilers I come across are even worse,and theyre supposed to have somebody taking care of them.
The typical kewanee or american standard hot water or steam boilers I get calls on in run down buildings run by **** hole management companies in mid town omaha are in such dyer need of servicing its hard to believe a lot of them still run.
The average maintenance guy they have working on them isnt smart enough to pour piss out of a boot.Their idea of maintence is making sure it has some water in it and kicking the gas valve once in a while to get it to come on!
I dont know how 1/2 of them have ever passed an annual inspection unless stevie wonder is doing them!
I lose track of how many Ive come acrossed over the years that didnt even have a backflow preventer on the fill line,drip leg for pop off valves............

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

No free oxygen in water after it reaches 170, you shouldn't need to be adding water, if you are you have a problem. This is not a steam boiler.

So when a single pipe system vents out the other side of a radiator you dont think over time its losing water?You were the one who brought up oxygen/air being removed by vents,I figured you were referring to a single pipe system.
Im talking about boiler systems in general,not just hot water boilers.
I come across both on a regular basis around here in the winter still,Theres not many other guys in town that will still mess with them so they call this old retired guy to do it.

 

[BD1]

I would remove the elbow on the lower header and add a tee with ****** and drain valve. On the upper header, add a shutoff valve between the union and the tee. By doing this it will allow you to back feed the system to remove air from each line. You can connect hose to one drain valve to city water and the other goes to floor drain. Now purge each line separately.