Need Help Finalizing Lighting Plan

[mopar440_6]

Need Help Finalizing Lighting Plan - Now With Layout

Well, the electrician pulled power to the shop today and the builder is coming tomorrow to hang the ceiling so its about time I make a decision on my lighting plan. But even after hours of reading through Platonic Solid's threads in here, I can't figure out what my best option is.

Building specs/lighting requirements:
-50'x60' pole building
-14'3" ceiling
-Walls and ceiling will be white steel panels, floor will be gray Rust Bullet
-Looking for 85-90 lumens/sq.ft.
-Would prefer lights to be run on 220v
-Need to be ceiling mounted (not suspended) strip lights
-Not opposed to buying fixtures and ballasts separately if it provides me with a quality solution at a reasonable price point
-Budget for fixtures, bulbs, and ballasts is approx $3000

My original plan was to use 5 rows of 6 of these:
Lithonia 8' TUNS-2-32-MVOLT-1-4-GEBHL

with these bulbs:
Philips-32-Watt T8 Daylight

But the Visual Interior Tool says I only need 25 fixtures. So, that would put that option at just under 2/3rds of my budget. However, I know those fixtures have a commercial ballast and with an all steel liner, I fear my radio and cell reception will suffer greatly. Also, changing bulbs on a 14' ceiling will not be fun so I started looking at some other options.

After reading the "Best Light Fixture Ever" and "Lighting Layouts" threads I started looking at the James Industry LED bulbs. I'm now kicking myself for not getting the 22w bulbs when they were cheap. If I could get them for the original $12.99ea price, I could still buy 50 of the Maxlite fixtures and come in very close to the same overall price as the fluorescent option but I think that ship has sailed at this point. The 18w bulbs are still available reasonably but the output difference is significant enough that I would have to increase the amount of fixtures to the point that they would become cost prohibitive.

Is there any benefit to using 4' tandem bulb fixtures vs 8' quad bulb fixtures?

Are there any other T8 LED options with a similar price point and performance to the James Industry lamps?

Am I completely off base and should be going in a completely different direction?

At this point I'm just pretty much overwhelmed by all the possible combinations so any direction or advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Platonic Solid]

You've certainly done your homework. Unfortunately, I haven't seen anything close to the $12.99 22W James lamp deal.

Try the visual interior tool again. I don't see the tandem TUNS IES file available so I used the 4ft UNS and it came up with 64 fixtures (thus 32 tandem TUNS) to get 89fc at 30" workplane.

I don't usually recommend this, but being that close to 15' ceiling height, I think you should consider 5 rows of 5, 4-lamp 8ft tandem F54T5HO, which yields 89fc at workplane. There's the 25 fixtures (100 bulbs).

 

[dab-santafe]

i just finished building a 25x50 shop, 12' ceilings, and i used 12 four foot long x 12" wide LED fixtures, two rows of 6, 4 ft apart, rows 8 feet from each long wall.

lighting is great, over 400 lux at night, and no AM radio interference. fixtures were found on Amazon, $129 each delivered. have 60,000 hour life, so shouldn't need to change them for about 20 years, maybe more. also cheap to run, each fixture uses 40W, so 480W to run them all.

sounds like your set up would need about twice the above based on size.

 

[mopar440_6]

Well, I stopped by HD tonight and cracked one of the Lithonia fixtures open and got the model number. It is: AP-432IP-H-UNV, which according to the spec sheet I was able to find is a 0.88 ballast factor. So, Platonic is correct that I would require 32 fixtures to hit my required fc.

 

[Platonic Solid]

I keep searching for a 4-lamp 8ft tandem strip light with a high ballast factor ballast, but no one seems to offer that off-the-shelf. You can special order what you want from pretty much anywhere.

As for the lamp you selected, I wouldn't trust HDs (or anyone else's) republished specifications. Unfortunately the Philips website is near impossible to search, thus I've been unable to find the official Philips spec sheet for verification. Using a lamp that has an initial lumen output of 3000 like the Sylvania 21720 (linked) might serve you better.

 

[mopar440_6]

...no one seems to offer that off-the-shelf. You can special order what you want from pretty much anywhere.

I was afraid of that. It may be cheaper to run a lower ballast factor unit and just buy a couple more. The GC finished the ceiling today and the access hatch is dead center of the ceiling so I might actually be better off running 6 rows instead of 5 anyway.

While talking to my electrician today, I mentioned the difficulty I was having with the lighting plan and he said they have a consultant who only does lighting layouts and that was part of his services. So, I sent him my specifications and preferences and he is going to see what she recommends.

I do like the specs on those Sylvania bulbs but they may prove difficult to source locally.

 

[Platonic Solid]

I do like the specs on those Sylvania bulbs but they may prove difficult to source locally.

$3.84 ea. (linked) (must buy in lots of 30) at globalindustrial dot com + claims free shipping

 

[mopar440_6]

My electrician emailed me this morning and said their opinion is that 90fc is too much light and we should stay closer to 60fc. Granted, I've worked in shops with even less than that but I've never seen a garage with too much light. Thoughts?

 

[sands35]

You only need ~90fc when you are doing detailed layout work. You don't need that when doing every day garage project stuff. Think laying out small dovetail joints or assembling a small mechanical device - and doing it all day long. 60fc is plenty. Even less for changing tires and oil.

 

[mopar440_6]

Primary functions include engine and transmission rebuilding, machining, and welding/fabrication.

 

[Platonic Solid]

After you've filled the space with stuff and a little dirt settles in that 60fc will quickly drop to 40fc and you'll wish you had more. Then there's the age factor. I don't know how old you are, but if your anywhere near 50 you'll be much happier at 90fc.

 

[Autorotica]

I am about an hour east of you in 19520. You are welcome to swing by and see my cheap 30 ($1200 when not on sale) Costco LED fixtures in my 60 x 64 shed without a finished ceiling or walls to see if that helps you with your decision.

Chris
[email protected]

 

[davidw221]

I installed Cree 100W. LED's, 1600 lumens,
If you purchased 20 basic sockets, $2.19@ $43.80
and 20 Cree light bulbs at $5.49 $109.80

Total cost for lighting is $153.60

Each light is 1620 lumens, just do the math, if you want light and you want it on the cheap here is the way to go.

for more information go to creebulb.com
I purchased the LED tubes, wish I hadn't I have several of these Cree Bulbs, wish I went that way in the first place.

 

[sands35]

After you've filled the space with stuff and a little dirt settles in that 60fc will quickly drop to 40fc and you'll wish you had more. Then there's the age factor. I don't know how old you are, but if your anywhere near 50 you'll be much happier at 90fc.

Except that you don't need 90fc everywhere, just where detailed work gets done.

 

[Platonic Solid]

sands35 - If 60fc makes you happy, then you should go with 60fc. For those of us that are 50+ years, and/or don't want to be dragging the portable shop-light everywhere, 90fc everywhere is the right place to start.

 

[mopar440_6]

I am about an hour east of you in 19520. You are welcome to swing by and see my cheap 30 ($1200 when not on sale) Costco LED fixtures in my 60 x 64 shed without a finished ceiling or walls to see if that helps you with your decision.

Chris

Chris, I appreciate the offer but I think I'll likely be going with T8 fixtures and upgrade to LED tubes down the road if I get a wild hair. The cost difference puts the break even point out further than I would like. I will keep it in mind if my electrician suggests something different.

...Each light is 1620 lumens, just do the math, if you want light and you want it on the cheap here is the way to go.

Davidw221, while I am a huge fan of the Cree bulbs (my entire house is lit with them), I don't want bulbs hanging down from the ceiling and the recessed cans would require FAR too many to be feasible for a 3000sq ft shop.

sands35 - If 60fc makes you happy, then you should go with 60fc. For those of us that are 50+ years, and/or don't want to be dragging the portable shop-light everywhere, 90fc everywhere is the right place to start.

Platonic, I spoke with the electrician again today and we will be starting with a goal of 90fc and reduce that if needed to make the fixture layout fit the space. I'm nowhere near 50 yet but I HATE dragging extension cords and trouble lights around.

Now we just need to determine fixtures, bulbs, and layout.

 

[mopar440_6]

Well, I heard back from my electrician on Friday and pretty much decided he's either trying to make some extra money on the fixtures or he's just not trying hard enough to find a good solution for my shop lighting layout. Below is the layout he suggested which would require 42 8' tandem T8 fixtures. The fixture he specified is an All-Pro 4 lamp 8 foot narrow strip, part number APS-8NS232. Based on what I could find, it is identical to the Metalux SNF tandem fixture but with a lower quality instant start ballast.



Based on Platonic Solid's posts, I knew immediately that I could eliminate a couple fixtures by going to a wider bulb spacing. So, I decided it was time to download DiaLux and start trying to figure out a more cost effective and/or higher quality solution. After two days of screwups, I finally managed to get something that seemed respectable.





But, after starting to add in light fixtures and bulb specifications I'm even more confused. I think I've narrowed it down to two non-standard options and one off the shelf option. Option 3 is the only one I know I can have everything here in a couple days.

Option 1 - Build From Scratch
-US Energy 8' Tandem Housings
-Sylvania 49455 PS Ballasts
-Sylvania FO32/865/XP/ECO Bulbs

Option 2 - LED
-US Energy 8' Tandem Housings
-James Industry 19.5W LED Tubes

Option 3 - Off The Shelf
-Metalux 8TSSF-232-UNV-EB81-U Fixtures (with stock instant start ballasts)
-Sylvania 24810 6500K Bulbs

Option 1 should minimize the number of fixtures and provide really good lamp life and light color at the expense of some extra work to build them. Option 2 would hopefully mean never changing bulbs in my lifetime and some cost savings on the electric bill but that could be a toss up with Chinese bulbs. Option 3 is only on there because I know the local distributor and Lowes have them in stock and its a cheaper bulb so I could afford to replace it when the instant start ballast fries it.

Based on the Sylvania spec sheets Option 1 should output around 13,800lm per fixture which would require only 20 fixtures to hit 90fc per the Visual Interior Tool. But DiaLux is coming in at around 36 fixtures to hit that same 90fc as seen in this layout plot.



If this calculation is correct, then even Option 1 would barely be in budget, Option 2 would require so many fixtures it would be well out of budget, and Option 3 would also require an astronomical amount of fixtures. Maybe I shouldn't be including the pallet racking and rooms in the calculation area or at all for that matter?

Hopefully Platonic can come in here and tell me what I'm doing wrong.

 

[Platonic Solid]

Cool! Looks like you're doing great. I aim for 90fc at 30" workplane in an empty room. Once you fill it with stuff it drops quite a bit. Remeber what I said in the beginning: "being that close to 15' ceiling height, I think you should consider 5 rows of 5, 4-lamp 8ft tandem F54T5HO, which yields 89fc at workplane." Try this Lithonia Z-Strip IES file (linked). If you like the results find a local distributor and get quotes on the louvered Z-Strip. (linked)

 

[mopar440_6]

Platonic, I tried the Z-strip IES files for both the standard 4' strip and the 4' with the specular louvers and wasn't thrilled with the results. The prices locally are pretty salty also.

I need to avoid having an odd number of rows because the garage door opener and attic access hatch are right in the middle of the building.

I still don't think I'm getting the correct results in DiaLux. What should I have the room reflectances set at? The ceiling and walls are bright white painted steel and the floor will be coated with gray Rust Bullet. Here is a picture of the shop as it sits with just the interior installed.



At this point I'm thinking building fixtures with the Sylvania ballasts and bulbs is going to be my best "bang-for-buck" option but how do I calculate it without an IES file?

 

[Platonic Solid]

70-50-20 Ceiling-Wall-Floor is standard surface reflectance. If you're going to leave all the shelving in your calculations you can do 70-70-20. There are quite a few Z-strip IES files, please confirm you tried the Z 2 54T5HO ies file.

To test the HBF T8 option you can tweak the lamp lumen output in Dialux or use this IES file I made: TC 2 32 HBF.ies (it's not a real zip file so just rename it to delete the ".zip")

 

[mopar440_6]

Platonic, here is the plot with 48 (24 tandem) of the Z254T5HO standard strip fixtures (no reflectors or louvers). The shelves are included, office and furnace room are excluded, and reflectances are 70-68-20. Average illuminance came out at 80.7fc.



Here is the same plot with 36 of the HBF fixtures based on the IES file exactly as you created it. Same inclusions, exclusions, and reflectances as above. Average illuminance of 82.4fc.



Now, with the shelves removed, office and furnace room excluded, and reflectances set to 70-50-20. 36 HBF fixtures based on the IES file as sent with Luminous flux at 11600. Average illuminance of 90.7fc.



Same settings as above but with the luminous flux adjusted to 13800 based on the Sylvania spec sheet. 30 HBF fixtures came out to an average illuminance of 90.4fc.



So, should I install 30 or 36 of the HBF fixtures?

I spoke with the electrician again and he is going to see if one of his vendors can supply the fixture and bulbs pre-assembled at a competitive price. If not, I will likely order the components and assemble the fixtures myself. The Sylvania ballast should offer a much longer lamp life at 3 hr switching intervals, correct?

But, if none of the above options work out, I'll go with the Z254T5HO strips off the shelf from HD as my contingency plan.

 

[Platonic Solid]

I didn't change the "lamp luminous flux" of the IES file (though I should have to avoid above scenario), I changed the "fixture luminous flux". Using the IES file I made and increasing the lamp luminous flux is like taking a HBF fixture and putting 3364 lumen lamps in it which results in 15600 lumen total fixture output (which is not realistic). The answer to your question = you need 36 fixtures. The 30 fixture: lamp luminous flux adjusted + custom IES file plot should be discarded.

 

[mopar440_6]

...I changed the "fixture luminous flux".

That's exactly what I suspected. 36 fixtures it is.

Now, the next question, can I use the non-shunted LED ready housings with those Sylvania ballasts without issue?

Also, what IES file are you using to model the James LED lamps? I would assume they are different than a regular fluorescent due to the 120* aperture angle.

Thank you for all the help Platonic!

 

[motofool33]

subscribed,

 

[Platonic Solid]

mopar440 6 - Yes, you can (and must) use non-shunted lamp holders for the Sylvania 49455 Programmed Start ballast (linked). The "LED ready" housing is nothing more than a standard fluorescent housing with non-shunted lamp holders. They already pre-wired it for LED single ended lamps, but that's easy to change. Just follow the wiring diagram on the ballast or spec sheet.

The IES file for the James lamp fixture is the James single lamp file modified to replicate the current lamps lumen output x 2. James hasn't come out with any new IES files since Jan 2014 so the file has to be updated to emulate current output, then doubled to emulate a 2 lamp fixture and tweak the luminous opening accordingly. If you want to dive into the deep end of the pool and learn how to modify IES files, read this: ANSI/IESNA LM-63-02. You can open and modify any IES file with NotePad. Here is the entire (but dated) James LED tube product line IES file collection in one zip file (linked).

See post #259 in the best light fixture ever thread (linked) for a basic comparison of F32T8 fluorescent strip light to 120° aperture James LED.