Need power to my shed

[Ihateclevernames]

So, with all of the other things that are going on around the property.........My shed is finally moved in place. I had to move it 150' through the woods using cut up poplar trees and a 12K lb winch.

Yeah, it was about as fun as it sounds.

Anywho.......now that it is in place and have the yard tools and chickens relocated, I need to get some power up there. I don't have the space to add another breaker on to the house panel, however I will once the new garage is completed.

So, I don't have many options as of right now with the exception of running extension cord across the yard to the shed and powering the shed through the use of a weatherproof inlet.

I only plan on running 2 lights and 2 outlets out there in the shed, it is really only important right now as I need to be able to keep the chickens warm during the cold months. I will have a ditch witch out here in a few weeks and can trench for the cable then, but in the meantime I would be able to get all of the boxes and NM ran inside the shed and chicken coop along with a few lights and power them all with the extension cord to the inlet.

Since the inlet will be in a box, it will make the changeover quick once I actually get it trenched properly.

So, with all that being said........running 12/2 UF to the shed on a 20A circuit eventually will be preferred, however I am not sure about the voltage drop to the shed. Once the building is complete, I will have a run of about 120' to the shed. I am sure that there will be some drop, however I will really only be running a few 60 watt bulbs and a few outlets that will power nothing more than a few small power tools from time to time and battery tenders.

Or will I need to use a 15A breaker?

Thanks guys

 

[ForceFed70]

150' is going to require some serious upsizing.

You'll have to go to 10/2 UF cable at the least and may only be able to use a 15A breaker at that.

Consider a 240V circuit and a subpanel- 1 more conductor (4 instead of 3) will deliver double the power.

 

[rsanter]

You can add a small sub panel,off the side of your exsisting panel.
This will allow you to add a breaker to protect the line out to the shed

Bob

 

[MushCreek]

I've been running my barn on 125' of 10/2 for a couple years now. I plan to drop a decent line and 240V., but it had to wait while I finish the house. I've run a small 120V water heater, a space heater, a compressor, and various small tools without incident. Needless to say, you can only run one thing at a time. I'm sure the voltage drop is significant, but it hasn't hurt anything (yet) and the extension cord doesn't get hot. I would say 10/2 would be the absolute minimum, and for the amount of work involved, I would go bigger, even for a shed.

 

[bczygan]

An extension cord or combination of cords will be a little pricey. Do you have a future use for them?
I would buy the wire that is going to be installed in the trench, and just lay it on the ground for now, and put it in the trench when the time comes.

As far as circuits, can you eliminate one for now, and use that circuit for the shed? Or get a double breaker to make room?

 

[theoldwizard1]

So, I don't have many options as of right now with the exception of running extension cord across the yard to the shed and powering the shed through the use of a weatherproof inlet.

For a TEMPORARY solution couple of light bulbs, you can use 14/3 extension cords. Incandescent light bulbs don't care about voltage drop. They will be dimmer, but will actually last longer ! 150' of SJOOW 14/3 will cost you about $100-$135.

...running 12/2 UF to the shed on a 20A circuit eventually will be preferred, ...

I've been running my barn on 125' of 10/2 for a couple years now.

Consider a 240V circuit and a subpanel- 1 more conductor (4 instead of 3) will deliver double the power.

I highly recommend the feeddback you got from MushCreek and ForceFed70 ! 10/3 (plus ground) UF-B and a 6 slot panel. Use 15A 240v breaker in your main panel.


I would never recommend just laying 10/3 UF-B on the ground as a temporary solution

 

[pattenp]

If just a 120V 20A circuit and if fed from a GFI outlet or breaker then the cable only needs to be buried 12 inches. For the distance I'd use 10-2 UF. Even with #10 at that distance a full 20A draw will have a voltage drop over 5%. At 10A or less you're at/under 3%. Based on your intended use the #10 should fit your needs. Voltage drop has noting to do with the breaker size you use. You can put up to a 30A feeding breaker on #10 CU if you want to. But if you do use a 30A breaker the depth requirements change to 24 inches from 12 inches for direct bury. With that said I would stick with the 20A breaker as a max..

 

[Ihateclevernames]

If just a 120V 20A circuit and if fed from a GFI outlet or breaker then the cable only needs to be buried 12 inches. For the distance I'd use 10-2 UF. Even with #10 at that distance a full 20A draw will have a voltage drop over 5%. At 10A or less you're at/under 3%. Based on your intended use the #10 should fit your needs. Voltage drop has noting to do with the breaker size you use. You can put up to a 30A feeding breaker on #10 CU if you want to. But if you do use a 30A breaker the depth requirements change to 24 inches from 12 inches for direct bury. With that said I would stick with the 20A breaker as a max..

So running the 10/2 from the shop to the shed will be the most effective for my needs with a 20A breaker?

Sounds like an easy solution.

With that being said, in order to meet the needs in the meantime..........could I just add a male end to the 10/2 UF and then leave it on the ground for a few weeks?

I realize that is against code, but it will only be temporary as it will be buried in a few weeks. That will allow me to just plug it in to an exterior GFCI outlet until the actual service is wired up to the shop.

Thoughts?

This will save me from having to buy additional extension cords and what not and allow me to reuse the actual UF that is on the ground temporarily.

 

[pattenp]

So running the 10/2 from the shop to the shed will be the most effective for my needs with a 20A breaker?

I believe so based on your stated needs.



With that being said, in order to meet the needs in the meantime..........could I just add a male end to the 10/2 UF and then leave it on the ground for a few weeks?

I don't see why not for a few weeks. UF is sunlight resistant, but I wouldn't leave it too long exposed to the sun.

****

 

[theoldwizard1]

So running the 10/2 from the shop to the shed will be the most effective for my needs with a 20A breaker?

I still say 10/3 to cover for possible future requirements, even if you don't use the extra conductor, just don't cut it off short !

 

[Ihateclevernames]

****

Not to change up what we previously discussed, but I was doing some calculations on a generic voltage drop calculator that I found online and saw that running 12/2 on a 15 amp breaker for that distance would put me only at about 1% lower than the 10/2 on a 20 amp breaker.

10/2 on a 20 amp breaker came back at about 114.5 volts and running 12 / 2 on a 15 amp breaker came back at a little over 113 volts.

I bought a 250 foot roll of each just in case, as I plan on tackling this tomorrow. It would be nice however if I could utilize the 12/2 as it was 60 bucks less than the 10/2.

 

[Gentleman Adventurer]

I've always found that once I have power somewhere, I come up with more things I can use the power for. I would run the 10/3 at 220. However, since you don't have the same requirements, I would at least install the 10/2 and the 20 amp breaker. It'll give you maximum use from 110v.

 

[pattenp]

Recommended voltage drop is 3%, 5% is the max you should allow. At a full 15A load at 120V #12 will have a 5.7% VD, #10 will be 3.4%. Using a 15A breaker vs. a 20A breaker has no bearing to VD. Bottom line if you use #12, 13A is at the 5% VD limit at 120V. 22A is at the 5% VD limit of the #10 at 120V. The $60 for the #10 is getting you at least 7A more head room. It's your $60, if it were mine I'd do the #10. My numbers are based on 120' run.

 

[checkthisout]

I used 14/2 out to my chicken coop, about a 250' run.

Fires up a 2 bulb fluorescent (T12) cheapy fixture just fine with plenty left over for a couple heat lamps and a heat tape if needed. The most I would ever need was 600 watts

It's a lot cheaper to go with a single circuit of whatever than it is to put a subpanel, ground rods and all that stuff....I know many advise it as a no no in case you get sick of chickens or kicked out of the house. In my mind the workaround for that is to be sure and run your wire in conduit. This would allow you the option to pull a larger circuit later on

My recommendation would be to use 1" PVC. You can thread your wire through it now and lay it approximately along your future trench line. and temporarily or permanently connect at your outbuilding/garge by doing the necessary trenching within a few feet of the building(s) and then digging a full trench later on.

No matter what decision you make, absolutely do not run any wire without putting it into conduit. Chickens bring in rodents and the rodents will always find that your wire is in the way of where they want to dig into your coop.

 

[Ihateclevernames]

Recommended voltage drop is 3%, 5% is the max you should allow. At a full 15A load at 120V #12 will have a 5.7% VD, #10 will be 3.4%. Using a 15A breaker vs. a 20A breaker has no bearing to VD. Bottom line if you use #12, 13A is at the 5% VD limit at 120V. 22A is at the 5% VD limit of the #10 at 120V. The $60 for the #10 is getting you at least 7A more head room. It's your $60, if it were mine I'd do the #10. My numbers are based on 120' run.

Sound argument.

I will run the 10.

 

[ForceFed70]

Recommended voltage drop is 3%, 5% is the max you should allow. At a full 15A load at 120V #12 will have a 5.7% VD, #10 will be 3.4%. Using a 15A breaker vs. a 20A breaker has no bearing to VD. Bottom line if you use #12, 13A is at the 5% VD limit at 120V. 22A is at the 5% VD limit of the #10 at 120V. The $60 for the #10 is getting you at least 7A more head room. It's your $60, if it were mine I'd do the #10. My numbers are based on 120' run.

Good information, but the statement bolded above is misleading as all heck.

Voltage drop is absolutely related to current and thus breaker size. You want the breaker to trip before voltage drops too low.

 

[Ihateclevernames]

Good information, but the statement bolded above is misleading as all heck.

Voltage drop is absolutely related to current and thus breaker size. You want the breaker to trip before voltage drops too low.

So could we all agree that a 120' run with 10/2 and a 20 amp breaker will be fine?

Great information on this thread, but it's a little overwhelming for the shade tree electrician.....haha.

 

[ForceFed70]

So could we all agree that a 120' run with 10/2 and a 20 amp breaker will be fine?

Great information on this thread, but it's a little overwhelming for the shade tree electrician.....haha.

Yes I think everyone agrees that it would be OK.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Good information, but the statement bolded above is misleading as all heck.

Voltage drop is absolutely related to current and thus breaker size. You want the breaker to trip before voltage drops too low.

However maximum voltage drop is only recommended by the NEC NOT required.

 

[pattenp]

Good information, but the statement bolded above is misleading as all heck.

Voltage drop is absolutely related to current and thus breaker size. You want the breaker to trip before voltage drops too low.

I thought we were talking about the calculation and mitigation of VD, not the use of a breaker to limit VD by tripping.



*

 

[theoldwizard1]

Ohm's Law : Voltage (drop) = Current (amps) x resistance

The real problem is that most loads that do not get their desired voltage will draw more current. More current, more voltage drop.

 

[checkthisout]

Ohm's Law : Voltage (drop) = Current (amps) x resistance

The real problem is that most loads that do not get their desired voltage will draw more current. More current, more voltage drop.

Probably best to think of an extra long wire or too small of a wire affecting the circuit as a series load.

The ultimate effect on the power tool, lamp or whatever would be the same as using a dimmer switch or the speed control on the tool.

 

[Ihateclevernames]

Gotcha. Well here is the breakdown as we sit currently. Everything is in good working order and I have not tripped anything.............yet.

Since I don't have my circuit created in the new garage yet, I have about 120' of 10/2 UF ran to the porch with a 15A male plug end on it, plugged into a GFCI outlet on a 20A circuit. The UF then runs up to the shed, and is buried near the base of the shed and the 10/2 UF is running up a piece of 3/4" schedule 40 into an LB that connects to a junction box inside the shed.

The 10/2 then is tied to 2 sources of feed. 1 for 3 outlets and 1 for 2 lights in the shed. I used 12/2 NM-B in order to wire up the light switch and outlets in the shed.

I then installed a light box and lamp holder in the chicken coop with 12/2 NM-B and ran it through the shared wall and added a male plug end in order to have the chicken coop light on a mechanical timer, which is plugged in to one of the outlets.

The light bulbs in the shed are 7W LED bulbs and the light in the chicken coop is a 250W heat lamp bulb.

I personally didn't like using the make plug ends for this, but bear in mind it is temporary and will be wired up to a separate circuit in a few weeks, which will eliminate the plug end that is hooked up to the house GFCI.

As for the plugged end in the shed, that powers the chicken coop light, I realize that NM-B is not to be used for a flexible cord, however it is stapled to the wall and ran between studs in order to ensure that it does not move. Any issues with this? The biggest reason is that it was the most cost effective way to set this light on a timer.

All of the outlets and switches in the shed are 15A, which I seem to remember being allowed by code.As for running a few feet of the UF inside of 3/4" conduit, I figured that it would have to be protected in some way or another.

In regards to the entire setup, is there anything here that is just down right dangerous? I would like to leave this plugged in over the weekend as we will be out of town for the holiday. I am assuming at the hint of any trouble, the GFCI will trip, correct?

I figure that being plugged into a GFCI outlet does offer some protection and will assist in acting as the GFCI for the circuit in the shed. I currently do not have one, however I will swap the first outlet in the shed with a GFCI once I wire up the shed into a dedicated 20A circuit in the garage.

Thanks for the feedback thus far!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I thought we were talking about the calculation and mitigation of VD, not the use of a breaker to limit VD by tripping.



*

And limiting VD by use of a smaller breaker is a bad design.

The proper way to limit VD is by upsizing the wire.

 

[bczygan]

Gotcha. Well here is the breakdown as we sit currently. Everything is in good working order and I have not tripped anything.............yet.

Since I don't have my circuit created in the new garage yet, I have about 120' of 10/2 UF ran to the porch with a 15A male plug end on it, plugged into a GFCI outlet on a 20A circuit. The UF then runs up to the shed, and is buried near the base of the shed and the 10/2 UF is running up a piece of 3/4" schedule 40 into an LB that connects to a junction box inside the shed.

The 10/2 then is tied to 2 sources of feed. 1 for 3 outlets and 1 for 2 lights in the shed. I used 12/2 NM-B in order to wire up the light switch and outlets in the shed.

I then installed a light box and lamp holder in the chicken coop with 12/2 NM-B and ran it through the shared wall and added a male plug end in order to have the chicken coop light on a mechanical timer, which is plugged in to one of the outlets.

The light bulbs in the shed are 7W LED bulbs and the light in the chicken coop is a 250W heat lamp bulb.

I personally didn't like using the make plug ends for this, but bear in mind it is temporary and will be wired up to a separate circuit in a few weeks, which will eliminate the plug end that is hooked up to the house GFCI.

As for the plugged end in the shed, that powers the chicken coop light, I realize that NM-B is not to be used for a flexible cord, however it is stapled to the wall and ran between studs in order to ensure that it does not move. Any issues with this? The biggest reason is that it was the most cost effective way to set this light on a timer.

All of the outlets and switches in the shed are 15A, which I seem to remember being allowed by code.As for running a few feet of the UF inside of 3/4" conduit, I figured that it would have to be protected in some way or another.

In regards to the entire setup, is there anything here that is just down right dangerous? I would like to leave this plugged in over the weekend as we will be out of town for the holiday. I am assuming at the hint of any trouble, the GFCI will trip, correct?

I figure that being plugged into a GFCI outlet does offer some protection and will assist in acting as the GFCI for the circuit in the shed. I currently do not have one, however I will swap the first outlet in the shed with a GFCI once I wire up the shed into a dedicated 20A circuit in the garage.

Thanks for the feedback thus far!

If anything goes wrong....you'll just have FRIED chicken!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[James-W]

If anything goes wrong....you'll just have FRIED chicken!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

That was funny, but it would have been more funny if the opening poster were from Kentucky instead of Tennessee.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

 

[Ihateclevernames]

I will gladly take fried chicken versus a burned down shed or house.....

Haha, good jab though.

Overall though, what are the thoughts on the safety of this temporary setup?

And any future issues with wiring the shed the way I did?

 

[Bigbandguy]

In my not so humble opinion you will be glad for the larger wire and will wish it were even bigger a few years down the road. There is rarely such a thing as too much power. You might invent the better mousetrap and need to manufacture the first 100 units in that shed.

 

[checkthisout]

I will gladly take fried chicken versus a burned down shed or house.....

Haha, good jab though.

Overall though, what are the thoughts on the safety of this temporary setup?

And any future issues with wiring the shed the way I did?

Seems fine.

Your only concern would be wire chaffing or bad connections. Probably not an issue on brand new stuff unless you damaged it during install.

Is it safer than an extension cord? Probably. I had an extension cord running my coop for the last 4 years until I ran wire which is like yours but in conduit sitting on the ground.

 

[checkthisout]

Here is my coop wiring.

This is the inlet. GFCI outlet (with heat tape plugged in for waterer) and regular snap switch used as the main switch covered up by one of those red water tight covers. Next switch up switches one side of the outlet over the door.

View media item 55072
Outlet over the door has one side switched. The box above operates off a remote control so we can turn the interior and exterior lights on and off and control the opening of the chicken door from about 150' away in the house.

It continues over to another non-switched outlet on the left for heat lamps or whatever.

View media item 55071
Everything is weather tight except for switch that can be used for the outlet. Need to get a weatherproof cover for that one.

 

[Ihateclevernames]

I like the setup that you have there in regards to electrical.

I didn't really feel the need to go to the extreme of weatherproof as my shed was built like a house. The only place that the chickens actually have access to is on the exterior which is weatherproof and the light in their shed, but the NM-B is up high and they can't get to it. Just in case, I actually put some chicken wire around it just in case.

I will post the pictures of the work up in a few days.

 

[checkthisout]

I like the setup that you have there in regards to electrical.

I didn't really feel the need to go to the extreme of weatherproof as my shed was built like a house. The only place that the chickens actually have access to is on the exterior which is weatherproof and the light in their shed, but the NM-B is up high and they can't get to it. Just in case, I actually put some chicken wire around it just in case.

I will post the pictures of the work up in a few days.

Yeah the weatherproof covers are spendy but the cost difference between the "in use" covers and regular shutters is negligible. I felt the need to shield them from chicken **** and condensation. Ammonia laden moisture will collect on exposed outlets and cause them to rust. (at least my thinking goes).

Would love to see pics of yours!