The VISES of Garage Journal

[ganymede]

Suckage, major suckage!!

Yup.
Especially for some one in the same state.
Every big vise I see is overpriced or beaten to death .

The biggest complaint I hear is the weight of a Columbian is much lighter than other vises of the same jaw size. I own one and like all other Columbians, the jaw towers are hollow. I wouldn't part with it, but I've passed on a lot of Columbians myself.

According to vintage Columbian ads, the vises were made hollow to allow the iron to be malleabilized (sp) thus making them stronger.
The process was patented too.

 

[bagged89s10]

Got to a sale 3 hours after it started and was surprised to see this still there bolted to the bench, the place was a tool bonanza. I was thinking the guy running the sale was asking too much so I found him and asked. He said everything has to go and I showed him the vise. He said its a craftsman so $20 BUT I have to get it off the bench myself. No problem I told him.

You ****!

 

[Shiftless]

Anybody ever seen one of these Ruckles?

http://sandiego.craigslist.org/nsd/tls/5337918818.html

 

[NJ Marty]

Anybody ever seen one of these Ruckles?

http://sandiego.craigslist.org/nsd/tls/5337918818.html

Never seen one. Its got a little FPU look to it like this one.
http://boston.craigslist.org/gbs/tls/5339192522.html

 

[va.grouseman]

Fretters[/B];5320770]Lead loading?

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Yep, lead loading.---Wish I'd taken pics back when I filled the voids, and the Static when Dynamic were laying upside-down in the floor, but I didn't know about GJ back then.---It's bolted down and weighs 220 lbs. now.---Might try to wind the Dynamic out far enough to get a pic of the lead.---No pic-Never happened.---It's my everyday vise.









Columbian also made some all brass vises for special circumstances.















My favorite is Reed, but Columbians are underrated.

 

[topop101]

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Yep, lead loading.---Wish I'd taken pics back when I filled the voids, and the Static and Dynamic were laying upside-down in the floor, but didn't know about GJ back then.---It's bolted down and weighs 220 lbs. now.---Might try to wind the Dynamic out far enough to get a pic of the lead.---No pic-Never happened.---It's my everyday vise.









Columbian also made some all brass vises for special circumstances.















My favorite is Reed, but Columbians are underrated.

VAIs was wondering is the brass ones are all brass or a bronze? brass and beryllium? and are the lead screw and nut brass as well? I have a friend who just found one and I tried to contact Columbian for info but they said since they changed hands in 2002 they no longer had info on them .

 

[JZiggy]

Jz, guess it was the most efficient way to mass produce with multiple options during war time. I'm wondering if that was stopped thereafter. Wonder if one could find a base, and if is considered incomplete w/o a base. Also, were they only ever blue? And any way to age them?

They often have a date stamp on the static jaw near the jaw insert. Mine has it, 05/69 if I recall.

 

[CwazyWabbit]

Yup.
.....
According to vintage Columbian ads, the vises were made hollow to allow the iron to be malleabilized (sp) thus making them stronger.
The process was patented too.

If they were indeed made from malleable iron that would make them an incredibly strong vise, do you ever see broken ones?

 

[CRSINMICH]

When I bought this Columbian 403½ I read somewhere that the M in the cartouche meant that it was made of malleable iron. Can anyone confirm that?

(Fretters – this is the one that I gave the oxblood shoe polish finish. It’s holding up well so far. This picture is a BEFORE)

 

[econotrk]

If they were indeed made from malleable iron that would make them an incredibly strong vise, do you ever see broken ones?

This seems to be brought up from time to time with the consensus that they were. I've also read on here where someone mentioned they've seen them beaten to death but still unbroken. I've never seen one broken. Still, they don't have a good following and don't command a good price.

Always odd to me how many Wiltons I see with breaks, but they seem to be the most sought after. They just have that certain something that people flock to.

 

[va.grouseman]

Originally posted by Crazywabbit.

If they were indeed made from malleable iron that would make them an incredibly strong vise, do you ever see broken ones?
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Cwaze, there are earlier postings of Columbians with Dynamic towers with hammer holes all the way through and one severely dented, which proves two things, (1) the metal will give and bend as intended before breaking through, (2) those vises were treated real bad.---If I can find them I will repost.

Malleable is always better than brittle, and their concept had merit, but as you know, any company's main objective is the bottom line.---The metal is durable but it is really thin right in back of the jaw inserts, right where a mislick is bound to find itself.---I didn't want that happening to mine.---So the Malleable iron was a good selling point for Columbian but they leaned on it a little to heavy with cost cutting.---Can you imagine what a vise made of solid malleable iron would be like---Nearly indestructible.---But if malleable is the objective, there's nothing more malleable than babbitt led.

 

[CwazyWabbit]

But malleable iron is harder to cast and had to be made thinner than standard cast. It's more prone to inclusions and other issues in production so the initial cost is significantly higher to the point that penny pinching on thickness would be insignificant however it would be more likely it is done to get a successful casting. Over the years the terms malleable/ductile/sg iron seem to have been used interchangeably and is the stuff the top end records are made out of (like the 112 and the 36) and I've only ever seen one of those broken despite hollow towers. Over here a malleable iron vice will command a premium over a standard cast .... well at least for a record.

 

[econotrk]

I didn't want that happening to mine.-But if malleable is the objective, there's nothing more malleable than babbitt led.

Interesting VA, I knew you filled yours and thought you did it for weight. Sounds like a good improvement.

 

[CwazyWabbit]

I should add the 36 is hollower in the towers than the 112 or 4 due to the design and it was a 36 that I'd seen damaged, it looked like someone had used the rear tower as an anvil

 

[va.grouseman]

Originally posted by Topop101.

VA I was wondering is the brass ones are all brass or a bronze? brass and beryllium? and are the lead screw and nut brass as well? I have a friend who just found one and I tried to contact Columbian for info but they said since they changed hands in 2002 they no longer had info on them.
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Top, I think their more bronze. ---The metal is really tough.-, and has more of a reddish tent to it.---But every piece right down to the lock down lug is brass/bronze.---The back of the slide had been used as an anvil and was dished in about 1/4'', so I had to beat it back flat which I thought would take two or three licks.---I beat on it for three days, an hour at a time, with a 6 lb. sledge and a big flat end punch, till my arm would turn to rubber.---I've beat on steel that give in a whole lot easier than that thing.---Figured it had to bust as hard as I was pounding on it, but I couldn't live with the dished in slide.

The pipe jaws are soft brass.---I had to make them myself.

 

[Isaiah6113]

My new to me York 150 Vise (150mm = 6 in Jaws)

Hello Vise fans . . .

Picked this fellow up today; The ad simply said, "Heavy Duty Shop Vise". It's a York 150 (jaws are 150mm wide = 6 inches). If the lore on these is close to being correct some view these Yorks as being pre-Wiltons in origin, but I'm sure there's opinions on that claim. Lots to read on the subject anyway.

It's very large indeed, haven't weighed it, but the vise must be over 60 lbs. It was used in a blacksmith's shop. There is some splatter on the home made pedestal, but nothing on the vise itself. A few dings and such, but hey, it's a vise, and no spring chicken either! Overall it's tight and all parts move as they should.

The front pin that holds the lead screw is funky, I suspect it's broken, or at least badly bent; running the dynamic jaw out the head on the lead screw gets a little loose. But it runs in without without binding and only takes a finger. I do have the nuts/washers for the swivel bolts.

Also there is a larger longer pin at the back, but in mine it seems to be absent. Not sure its purpose. Any pictures I've seen of these taken apart don't seem to have a retaining path for that pin internally, so I'm a little lost as to its function.

It's a beast. I have a few shots lined up beside my Record SQ5 (5" jaws), which is no small vise. However beside this York the Record seems dainty. We settled on CA$50/US$37.50.

Well, as Daffy and Bugs would say . . . On with the show this is it . . .

I posted this to another forum too and was simply going to link, but thought that was too lazy, so here it is in full.

If anyone knows this vise any thoughts on that back pin and its function?

Thank you,

Matthew A.

 

[Rileysan]

But malleable iron is harder to cast and had to be made thinner than standard cast. It's more prone to inclusions and other issues in production so the initial cost is significantly higher to the point that penny pinching on thickness ...

As a profession in this field, I have to disagree. In fact, almost the opposite is true - the potential for casting defects increases significantly when adding cores to the equation and it would be difficult to calculate the cost savings here in this forum because you have to determine the added cost of making and setting cores (robotic automation did not exist until recently so everything was done by hand). I don't know why they designed them the way they did, but they obviously knew what they were doing. Too bad no one knows someone who used to work for them.

Brian

 

[CwazyWabbit]

I won't disagree with you Brian as you have done the job. I was just repeating what I had read which was that it was very difficult to cast malleable of any great thickness so they made things thinner when using it.

 

[Hemi49]

VAIs was wondering is the brass ones are all brass or a bronze? brass and beryllium? and are the lead screw and nut brass as well? I have a friend who just found one and I tried to contact Columbian for info but they said since they changed hands in 2002 they no longer had info on them .

Top
If I were making a non ferrous vise I would use AMPCO supplied metals....Very high strength Copper based alloys......In other words mechanical copper as opposed to electrical copper...Have been around since 1914.....Google them to see different alloys and applications....
Hemi

 

[CRSINMICH]

Isaiah: I'm sorry I don't have any information about your vise, but is that your drop leaf stand? If so you should post it on the Vise and Grinder Stand thread. Here's a link:http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=252799&highlight=vise+stands&page=16

By the way, You ****, eh?

 

[econotrk]

My new to me York 150 Vise (150mm = 6 in Jaws)

I posted this to another forum too and was simply going to link, but thought that was too lazy, so here it is in full.

Matthew A.

Saw this and commented over on OMWM, I don't know how I missed the stand, very nice.

 

[Rileysan]

I won't disagree with you Brian as you have done the job. I was just repeating what I had read which was that it was very difficult to cast malleable of any great thickness so they made things thinner when using it.

Thick section metal castings vary in difficulty but it almost always has to do with shrink and heat treating. Our foundry does not pour malleable iron - we are primarily steel, manganese alloy, and chrome iron (white iron) - so I can't speak about it specifically, but our chief metallurgist sits across the hall from me, so I'll bring it up.

I am intrigued by the Columbian vise discussion because there appears to be a prejudice against them because they are not solid castings and yet, as someone pointed out, evidence of broken jaws is scarce if not non-existent.

I own one Columbian - a 504 1/2 - and it's my favorite vise.

Perhaps someone can shed some more light on the topic of its reliability?

I think it's worthy of its own thread. I'll take up the topic ...

Brian

 

[ganymede]

If they were indeed made from malleable iron that would make them an incredibly strong vise, do you ever see broken ones?

I've seen every make of vise broken but Columbians are far down on the list.
That's impressive to me since they're kind of common.
At the top (excluding no names and low grade imports) are Prentiss and Wilton.
I own a small Wilton and would use a Prentiss with confidence too but looking at hundreds of vises over the years you notice brands for certain things.

 

[drivesitfar]

ALL: great stuff today. much better than the usual price talking. i agree that the older vises like Prentiss might also have had the back slides cracked because the users were used to a blacksmith vise or a user of one thinking the new designs could get pounded on. it might have had a weak point in the Prentiss design, but betting all those cracks were from a BFH and user. we have many members of GJ that almost come to blows and name calling if I (we) mention that a vise was designed as a third hand and not something to be pounded on. as i've said when i was a wee lad i would go with my Gramps to the logging equipment repair shops and see a worker putting a 3 or 4 foot piece of pipe on a vise's handle and putting all his weight on it to tighten something in the vise and beat the **** out of it. a bench vise IS NOT a blacksmith vise.

not sure why Columbian isn't in my top 5 or maybe 10 because they are nice vises. i even have passed on some with the old round type handles that are similar to Rock Island and Reeds. maybe Columbian and Wilton are not my favorites because they make cheap vises too unlike Reed, Prentiss, Athol (Starrett), Rock Island.

I'm still learning to speak "METAL" and really like what's been said today. thanks

Isaiah: nice find on the York and it was probably copied by Wilton and made into maybe the most recognized vise in the world then and now. I'm guessing the hole in the back of the vise is for a pin that should hold the vise nut in place sort of like the design for the old Leinen German vices. since i don't own a York (yet) maybe one of the other guys can say.

Bagged: your vise restorations have been great so far so if you think the belt sander can give you something better then good luck with that.

 

[Fretters]

If anyone knows this vise any thoughts on that back pin and its function?

Nice vice and a very good price. That rear pin holds the nut in place. When you pop that back cover off, the nut will come out that way, once you remove the leadscrew/front slide. You'll see two holes in the nut which align with the holes in the body. They just use a single pin which goes all way through. Double check when you reassemble it that movement isn't a bit tight, btw. That nut can sometimes be inserted 180 degrees out, yet the pin will still go through, which makes the movement a bit stiff. The holes aren't always drilled perfectly central.

 

[Fretters]

Jz, guess it was the most efficient way to mass produce with multiple options during war time. I'm wondering if that was stopped thereafter. Wonder if one could find a base, and if is considered incomplete w/o a base.

Bases over here were usually an optional extra rather than part and parcel of the design. That's why you usually notice the English vices bolting onto a standalone swivel base rather than it seeming to be more incorporated into the actual vice design. Some did have it as part of the design, but it was more common for it to be an additional extra item, totally independant of the vice.

I was just repeating what I had read which was that it was very difficult to cast malleable of any great thickness so they made things thinner when using it.

I think that related more to steel rather than the various irons. From what I recall, the casting process didn't change as such between the iron types, but they had to be heat treated afterwards to achieve the malleable/pearlitic structure, so it would likely have been that heat treatment process which may have been affected arther than the casting process itself, with the iron vices.

 

[CwazyWabbit]

The pearlitic structure was formed by adding another metal to the cast to cause the graphite to clump, aluminium or magnesium springs to mind.

 

[Fretters]

Fretters – this is the one that I gave the oxblood shoe polish finish. It’s holding up well so far.

Glad to hear it's holding up well. Always thought it would, but you can never tell for sure until you actually try it.

 

[Fretters]

The pearlitic structure was formed by adding another metal to the cast to cause the graphite to clump, aluminium or magnesium springs to mind.

That may well be the case. I do seem to recall mention of it being a slightly different mix. Sort of like plain brass/bronze versus gun metal, I guess. Must admit, I've not paid too much attention to the process overall. I had a brief read through on it a while ago, but must admit I skipped over a lot of it due to it simply not being relevant to owt I'm doing at the moment.

 

[CRSINMICH]

BROKEN WILTON FOR PARTS: All this talk of broken vises reminded me that at my favorite flea market a dealer has had a broken Bullet for sale for some time. The static jaw and the rest of the main housing were cracked like an egg shell and all the kings horses and men did an incredibly sloppy job of trying to repair it. I've barely paid attention to this vise for the past few month's since it's in such a bad state. He's only asking $30 and I'm sure he'll take less so if anyone is interested in the parts, I'll go back and get the numbers and we can figure out shipping later. I know the dynamic jaw is at least in fair shape and it does move in and out when the spindle is turned so the inner parts are probably okay.

EDIT: I'm fairly sure that it has 4" jaws

 

[Outlawmws]

Guys, on the Columbians and "desirability": It's been noted many times that Columbians were probably the best selling vise back in the day. So supply and demand, if the supply is high enough the prices remain reasonable. If they had sold as many mustangs as they did VW's over the years, Mustangs would still be relatively speaking, cheap...

I just did a quick search of Eprey for Columbian, Prentiss, Parker and Rock island and it was roughly Columbian > 200, Parker ~130, and the others in the 30's (Wilton is hard to get a "real" # on since they are still in business and there are a lot of new ones...)

 

[Shiftless]

CRSINMICH
Sure! Pick it up and part it out! Pieces are worth more than $30.00

(PM sent)

 

[drivesitfar]

CRS: if it's got a swivel base several members have been asking and needing a new one. take pictures or offer $20 and see if you can take it home. as many vises as you buy you'll probably need a parts vise some day in the near future. or your brother can probably re cast it and make it like new.

ALL: is anybody thinking they might actually make a cast vise in their own shop?

 

[Rileysan]

Guys, on the Columbians and "desirability": It's been noted many times that Columbians were probably the best selling vise back in the day. So supply and demand, if the supply is high enough the prices remain reasonable. If they had sold as many mustangs as they did VW's over the years, Mustangs would still be relatively speaking, cheap...

I just did a quick search of Eprey for Columbian, Prentiss, Parker and Rock island and it was roughly Columbian > 200, Parker ~130, and the others in the 30's (Wilton is hard to get a "real" # on since they are still in business and there are a lot of new ones...)

This makes a lot of sense. Or put another way" "If you've seen one, you've seen them all".

Brian

 

[CRSINMICH]

CRS: if it's got a swivel base several members have been asking and needing a new one. take pictures or offer $20 and see if you can take it home. as many vises as you buy you'll probably need a parts vise some day in the near future. or your brother can probably re cast it and make it like new./QUOTE]

drives: I got it. Unfortunately no swivel base. Believe it or not I only have one, okay three, Wiltons but only two are Bullets, one of which will be gone soon. I like them well enough, but my tastes seem to be running in other directions right now - like Vandermans. And please don't give my brother any ideas. He's liable to want to do that recasting but first he would have to make a home smelter and we'd have to make a trip to the Upper Peninsula to mine our own iron ore.

EDIT: I guess I have 4 Wiltons now.

 

[CRSINMICH]

TO ALL: I bought the broken Wilton I posted about and the parts are already spoken for. Sorry if I got your hopes up for naught.

Damn! Now I'm a parts dealer. Does this mean that I've entered some new dark corner of Vise Hell?

 

[drivesitfar]

CRS: you are in the RABBIT HOLE so let us know if you find more vises or if you happen to see Alice.

 

[CRSINMICH]

CRS: you are in the RABBIT HOLE so let us know if you find more vises or if you happen to see Alice.

help me......help me please

 

[jipps]

But malleable iron is harder to cast and had to be made thinner than standard cast. It's more prone to inclusions and other issues in production so the initial cost is significantly higher to the point that penny pinching on thickness would be insignificant however it would be more likely it is done to get a successful casting. Over the years the terms malleable/ductile/sg iron seem to have been used interchangeably and is the stuff the top end records are made out of (like the 112 and the 36) and I've only ever seen one of those broken despite hollow towers. Over here a malleable iron vice will command a premium over a standard cast .... well at least for a record.

CwazyWabbit, I'm in the market for a vintage, Sheffield-made, Record vice. I understand that some models were available first in steel and later in malleable iron.

From what I can see, each material will perform well for both (1) tensile strength; and (2) anvil area.

Am I right? Any views as to which material I should prefer?

Thanks!

 

[CwazyWabbit]

A lot of people prefer the older Steel ones over the Malleable ones but I'm not so sure this is based on any facts.
I did some comparison photos between two Record 36's that I restored a while back, one was a steel one and one was a later malleable one. The steel one had been bent during it's working life and had to be straightened, if you looked at the malleable one you could see where it had been strengthened in the area that the steel one had bent.
The point I'm trying to make is that even if the steel is a better material development work and improvements did carry on being made in the designs so it's not as simple as whether steel of malleable iron is best ........ they are both very good though

The pictures of the Record 36's are here http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4696404&postcount=59

Also I would add that the anvil area on any vice is really only for light work