What's the word on track saws?

[RonRock]

Thinking about getting a track saw. Sheet goods are getting heavier and harder to shove through my tablesaw. Well maybe I'm getting smarter in my age.

So I'm sure there will be plenty of pro's for the Festool, and I'm not completely opposed to it. But as yet I have not jumped the Festool bandwagon. The Makita looks like a decent unit. Dewalt looks OK too. Anybody have any input? Is the Festool really worth the premium price? I'm not making a living woodworking, but do like to buy "good" tools.

I did a search but had no luck. I may have missed this discussion already. If so point me to it and I'll follow.

 

[IndyGarage]

I don't have one but have looked at them for awhile for the very reason you are.

Festool seems to have almost a cult following. Tools seem to be well made and high priced. Not sure I would buy anything from them but the track saw and a vacuum, but those do look nice.

At one time they were the only game in town on track saws, now Dewault, Makita, make one, and there are now chinese knock offs.

If I were a pro, and I was working with it pretty often, I'd probably go for the Festool and one of their vacuums, plus some of their accessories.

I'm not, so I would probably go Makita. I've never gotten a bad tool from them. Apparently it will work with the Festool tracks and vise versa. The Makita costs about $425 and the smaller festool is about $650 - the larger one is about $750.

I've never been a huge Dewault fan, but from what I read, their saw is pretty good too. It's about the same price as Makita.

I would be tempted to try one of the Chinese saws - they are about $200, but I'm always disappointed with those knock off power tools. Seems to me like if you are going after the higher precision of a track saw, you might as well spend the money - otherwise you can use a straight edge and a standard circular saw.

 

[Git]

Is the Festool really worth the premium price? I'm not making a living woodworking, but do like to buy "good" tools.

...Festool seems to have almost a cult following...

...At one time they were the only game in town on track saws...

I have the Festool Track saw - and I bought it when it really was the only game in town. With that being said, when my son decided he wanted a tracksaw he asked me for advice and he ended up buying the Dewalt.

Indy - you are right about the "cult" and for me, it is a real turnoff... Festool does make some good tools, but not every single one is the best like some fanatics would like to think. One of the week points is the Festool track - joining two smaller tracks to make one longer one - for 8' cuts is sometimes difficult and I ended up just buying the 106" one that now costs over $300 just for the track! The saws also feel to be underpowered at times.

If you do end up purchasing a Festool saw - find a dealer that will work with you on the track - at least see if you can swap it out for the version with the holes in it (it may come in handy later) or will let you upgrade to a longer one. I believe ToolNut will let you

If you work a lot with sheet goods, having a good tracksaw is a no brainer


There is a lot of info out there - google tracksaw comparison, here is just one example
http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/track-saw-review/

 

[RonRock]

Thanks guys, you have nailed my thoughts exactly. I have always liked Makita tools.

That 300.00 price on track is one thing that I was leary of with the Festool.

 

[Voi]

I don't pay as much attention to this stuff as I used to but the tracks available at Eurekazone used to have a lot of positive reviews before Dewalt and Makita came out with theirs. That is one you can use with any saw but then you won't have the same plunge option AFAIK.

Festool was still considered the best when it came to dust collection but that may have changed in the past five years.

 

[Monte]

If Festool is too expensive take a look at Mafell

 

[BlueBomb]

Buying the Makita track saw is what got me into buying Festool. Currently have the Kapex, Domino DF500, CT36 vac, MFT table and various sanders. I still have the Makita and have no plans on trading into the Festool version. It cuts great and leaves an almost mirror finish on the edge of ply. Best part about the Makita is you can get the tracks through Zoro on a 30% off day. Paid roughly 160 shipped for the long track last Cyber Monday. Only thing is, I wish the tracks were a bit longer, as cutting the full length or width of a sheet comes a little short if you don't overlap the edges exactly. I've gotten used to it but it bit me the first time. The saw turned at the end of the cut since there was no more guide rail. Luckily I only hit the rubber strip and didn't go any further into the aluminum.

 

[Gyver]

I'm a festool dealer in Sweden and i highly recomend the stuff. I would say that more than 50% of the carpenters here in stockholm use the ts55 with 1,4m track. Makita and Hitachi are quite popular too but most customers tend to over time switch over to the more high end brands, dustcollection is a big deciding factor for many. And festool has got that down to a point.
The Bosch ma55 is a good alternative, mainly mafell developed components.

Here in europe you get a 3-year warranty for the tool and also a theft-insurance if you register your festool machine. They are the only manufacturer to offer such a good deal here. Does this apply in the US aswell?

 

[JonnyMac]

Every single professional carpeter who i have spoken with thats used the festool consider it to be amongst the best tools they own.
I believe that the track guides are common to makita and some 'home brand' saws use the same track, maybe its becoming a little universal?
BTW i dont own any festool so im not one of the cult but having used and seen it in action i wouldnt hesitate in getting one if i needed to work on those sizes of sheet material regularly. The edge they cut is insanely clean!!

 

[rcktsled]

All of the track saws take a special, oddball blade that is $$$ so be prepared for that ongoing expense.

 

[slickgt1]

I'm not int he cult. I have a few though. Festool dust extraction is just that good.

I have the ts55, 2 of them. Abused the **** out of one till the motor burnt. So go it fixed, but couldn't live without it for 2 weeks, so ended up buying another.

I have the Domino, because it is nuts.

I have a plunge router, a sander, and planer. Do not have the vacuum. Works fine with my rigid shop vac.

The joining of the tracks is not that bad. Its the dust extraction that keeps selling me. People freak out when I tell them I will cut this right in the middle of your living room. Very minimal dust is left behind.

I wish someone would just drop the Kapex on my doorstep by accident, but no way in hell will I spend that kind of bread, especially since I have a really nice Dewalt, and a portable makita. Kapex would own both of these with the dust extraction, but it doesn't feel $1200 worth.

 

[atthebeach]

I use a 50" Bora saw guide with my trusty old circular saw in my shop. Also works with my router. Low cost and good results. See the link.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00PQP12NI/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[BioNerd]

If Festool is too expensive take a look at Mafell

and I have used mafell, the smaller one that comes with a flexible track and a cross cut jig. Not very impressed for its price. its a neat idea... that small track for angles and cross cuts tho.

 

[BioNerd]

I can say that is rare for me not be working on high en set ups.

I've used festool, mafell and I own a grizzly. Why?
Because, if someone needs to use it, I will let them. I have already replaced one track for this reason, but the relationship you build with other tradesmen when you are generous is priceless.

I dislike festool, not for its price and quality, I have to say I would expect far less plastic for the price they ask in any of their tools. I dislike them because of the attitude most people that have that tool brand have. They are usually kinda condescending to less high end tradesmen, not all of them, but enough to make me feel ashamed to have those tools. I also dont like to be respected for how much I payed for a tool, much rather be respected for the quality of my work that I can achieve without irrational expenses. I wish there was a made in the USA version, I would get that one for obvious reasons.

Why does my grizzly do the same that festool and other brands do? because I buy nice saw blades.

now, if you arent doing high end work with finish pieces, you can get by with a cheaper blade.

although, remember that people will judge you for what brand tools you have.

 

[danski0224]

If you plan to buy other woodworking items, Festool has a whole system approach. Their tools are designed with dust collection in mind. Festool is also made in Germany, not China.

If none of that matters, then look at the other offerings.

One advantage to shorter lengths of track is ease of storage and less likely to damage it. Yes, the Festool track couplings are expensive.

 

[tonydanzah]

watch the video discontruction of festool, not worth the $1000 price tag

 

[mike93lx]

watch the video discontruction of festool, not worth the $1000 price tag

Why is construction used to determine value? It doesn't matter if it is made of two 50 cent parts, if it is put together in a way that gives someone value equal to $1000, it is worth it.

 

[RonRock]

How accurate are the cuts? Is the actual cut line truly easy to line up with the track? I see that they have a replaceable cut guide. Is it dependable? How about when cutting at an angle? Does that throw off the cut line from the guide?

I have a couple of straight line clamps similar to the Bora that was mentioned. They will do a perfect straight cut. But a PITA to set up for a cut because you have to figure the take up of the saw's shoe distance to the cut line. And of course it is never a easy measurement like 1 inch. Always a fraction. Just adds too much effort and chance of error. So typically I'll rough cut then finish on the tablesaw. That's what I am hoping to avoid.

I thought the deconstruction video was interesting. Wish he would do the Makita and Dewalt also.

 

[ca90ss]

How about when cutting at an angle? Does that throw off the cut line from the guide?

No, at least in the case of the Festool the cut line is the same no matter the angle. Not sure about the others but I would assume they are the same.

 

[ca90ss]

For those having problems joining tracks.
http://www.festoolproducts.com/Betterley-SLC23-StraightLine-Connector-for-Guide-R-p/slc23.htm

 

[babylou]

The Dewalt is usually preferred over the Makita for this tool while the Festool is prized for dust collection and by the cult.

 

[danski0224]

How accurate are the cuts? Is the actual cut line truly easy to line up with the track? I see that they have a replaceable cut guide. Is it dependable? How about when cutting at an angle? Does that throw off the cut line from the guide?

A new Festool rail has a "long" replaceable cut guide. Once the saw is run through the track and cuts off the excess cut guide, the cut guide *is* the cut line. Same thing if the cut guide needs to be replaced.

No math, no guessing. Vertical cut or angled.

Put the track on the pencil line and cut. Your waste is to the right of the track and the saw only bevels one way- sometimes, that is important to remember and you may have to support the track on the "other side" to make the cut.

Try and cut a taper from 0" to 3/16" over 80" on a table saw. Then you will buy the Festool track saw.

I have not used the DeWalt or Makita, they were not available at the time.

 

[rice rocket]

DeWalt doesn't actually make the saw, it's a rebrand of another European mfg, which I can't remember right now. It has a really odd 4-arm linkage for the pivoting mechanism. Can't say I've used it, but it's different than all others on the market which use a single pivot.

I have the Makita SP6000J, sold my Festool TS55 and snagged the Makita. The Makita is more powerful, and it really shows. The TS55 struggles even with 3/4" ply, you have to really pace your cuts, while the Makita will go through it like butter. Dust collection is about the same, I've seen just about every saw "win" the dust collection test at least once in a comparison test, so it's really a wash.

The Festool created a decent tool which is still pretty good, but it's becoming harder and harder to recommend for a few reasons.


#1, they keep jacking the prices annually...which is counter-intuitive. Shouldn't it be cheaper as you cut cost and achieve better economies of scale?

#2, has been basically the same for quite a number of years. Others (Mafell/Bosch, Makita, DeWalt) have taken the concept and improved on it in a number of ways, while Festool has stuck to their guns and they're really getting left behind in the market on features.

The Festool rail is it's weakest point, and they've refused to change it, not sure if it's an arrogance thing or something. Makita has an anti-tipover rail, which allows you to make 45 degree bevel cuts w/o the saw toppling over.

The Bosch/Mafell rails include a rail cap to prevent hose snagging on the rail, which is sorely lacking on the Festool (and Makita/DeWalt for that matter). The Bosch/Mafell rails are also incredibly simple to mate, just **** them up against each other and slide the mating rectangle in place and tighten.

Sidenote, if you do need to join two Festool rails, buy Makita's rail joining kit instead of Festools if you want to avoid gouging your rails, they work interchangeably. Festool has known about this for a while, yet they continue to deny that it's an issue, stating that it's user error if you damage your rails (which, likely is...but not everyone is pulling out a torque wrench to align their rails....there are better solutions to the same problem yet they refuse to change).

The DeWalt has that double sided track, which is useful if you damage one side. Oh that reminds me, Festool switched their anti-splinter strip to some **** adhesive that slides off and screws up your zero clearance if you leave the rail in the sun or in a car.

Other than the difference in rails, Makita and Mafell both have a really useful scoring mode, which is pretty effective in eliminating splintering and chipping on laminated boards.

It'd be harsh to call the Festool a bad saw, but it's really not worth the Festool koolaid markup anymore, especially now that it's $200-300 more than the competition after their price hikes, and now that the market has evolved and they haven't.

 

[theoldwizard1]

For the "average" DIYer, none of the track saws are worth the cost ! Put your money into a decent table saw and build run-in, run-out and side tables.

All of the "big box" stores will cut you panels down to at least rough size. Use this service and then finish cut them on your table saw. If this not practical, there are modestly priced cutting guides or us a 1x4 as a guide.

For cross cuts, make a cross cut sled.

 

[tarbellb]

Excellent info rice rocket, it seems you have real world experience. This is some of the best info and advice on track saws I have read to date.

theoldwizard, not sure if buying a table saw is a better cost option? Decent TS start at $3-400, and thats for a bottom tier contractor saw. That plus a TS w/ outfeed/infeed + wings and you are talking about a HUGE (stationary) footprint.

I would be more inclined to recommend a track saw and router w/ router table. Those paired with a sliding 10" miter could tackle 95% of DIYer to do list.

 

[guy48065]

For cross cuts, make a cross cut sled.

For zero-clearance bevel cuts, make several cross cut sleds.
For splinter-free cuts, score the cut line with a knife.
For accurate cuts on the pencil line, make MORE guides & jigs.
To eliminate splintering caused by saw arbor runout & end travel, buy a top-of-the-line portable saw or a floor-standing cabinet saw.
For dust-free cuts, upgrade to a saw with good collection.

For cross cutting without the need to clamp the guide...well...sorry.
To plunge cut perfectly in position, splinter-free and safe...well...sorry.

OR...just get the track saw and enjoy it's many benefits.

 

[moparfreak]

I went through the same question, mostly spurred by my trusty (or not) old skil saw starting to smoke and struggle through cuts.

In researching the subject, fact of the matter is, you really have to look at the whole system and take into consideration all of the pieces needed to make the whole "track saw system" to work as seamlessly as people claim. This usually means the base saw, 2-3 sets of tracks (for short, for crosscuts, for rips), assorted clamps and connectors, spare rubber strips (for the occasional oops), and of course the best blade you can find for a given size.

When you take all of these things into consideration, even the Makita and Dewalt were out of my price range (~$750). The Festool was up near the moon for me. Without the vacuum even it's in the $1k+ range when considering the bits and pieces.

In the end I got the Grizzly, because it got me into a nice track saw system that is well regarded as an excellent value (while not really anywhere claimed to be what it's not, i.e. Festool equivalent). But, at the end of the day, I'm making beautiful cuts, much easier and quicker than using my old skil saw and handmade guide, and the whole setup cost my just under $300.

I go through the Grizzly a bit in my thread here:
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=306832

BioNerd,
You mention using blades to improve the Grizzly cut, I'm curious, what blade do you use? I am assuming not the stock one...

 

[Chreese]

Hi,

I am familiar with two different saws and rail systems (Festool TS 55 and Mafell KSS 400) and would like to share my experiences.

#1, they keep jacking the prices annually...which is counter-intuitive. Shouldn't it be cheaper as you cut cost and achieve better economies of scale?

Does this only apply to Festool? My observation is that many power tool companies increase their prices about once a year.

#2, has been basically the same for quite a number of years. Others (Mafell/Bosch, Makita, DeWalt) have taken the concept and improved on it in a number of ways, while Festool has stuck to their guns and they're really getting left behind in the market on features.

When I compare ATF 55, TS 55 and TS 55 R (not to mention older Festo saws) I have no doubt that Festool tries to improve their plunge cut saws. Festool, Mafell, Makita etc. plunge cut saws are not equal however. Most of them seem to have their specific advantages. To mention a few points: riving/positioning knife, ease of changing saw blades (Is it necessary to depress a spindle lock button? Can the blade cover be removed?), cutting depth scale on/off the rail, scoring function, splinter guard, availability of accessories, flat body that enables you to cut close to walls ... There are many things to consider and personal preferences and needs do matter.

The Festool rail is it's weakest point, and they've refused to change it, not sure if it's an arrogance thing or something. Makita has an anti-tipover rail, which allows you to make 45 degree bevel cuts w/o the saw toppling over.

The Bosch/Mafell rails include a rail cap to prevent hose snagging on the rail, which is sorely lacking on the Festool (and Makita/DeWalt for that matter). The Bosch/Mafell rails are also incredibly simple to mate, just **** them up against each other and slide the mating rectangle in place and tighten.

Festool offers this guide rail deflector.
I have used both guide rail systems (Festool and Mafell) and while Mafell clearly offers a few advantages (clamping close to the cutting edge, self-aligning connector etc.) I don't regard it as much superior to Festool. Main reasons: Festool's system is larger (for example, Festool's rails can be also be used along with their routers; more and - in my opinion - better clamps etc.). Festool rails appear to be stiffer. At least I have the impression that Mafell rails tend to flex more easily when cutting thin material.

Other than the difference in rails, Makita and Mafell both have a really useful scoring mode, which is pretty effective in eliminating splintering and chipping on laminated boards.

The TS 55 (R) has a splinter guard in order to minimize tear out. How exactly does the anti-chip-out feature on the SP6000 work? If it acts as a depth stop that sets the cutting depth to a few mm, the same result can be achieved with Festool's (and other manufacturer's) saws. The anti-splinter/scoring feature on the Mafell MT 55 works different though.

Hope this helps,

Chreese

 

[Monte]

#1, they keep jacking the prices annually...which is counter-intuitive. Shouldn't it be cheaper as you cut cost and achieve better economies of scale?

wage increase in the german metal working industry in 2015: 3.4%

 

[Git]

wage increase in the german metal working industry in 2015: 3.4%

Your kidding yourself if you think all of Festools products are made in Germany...

 

[Monte]

Your kidding yourself if you think all of Festools products are made in Germany...

the discussed track saw yes. Several other products are unfortunately from the czech republic. The people over there still cost more than the chinese employees who make the competitors tools.

 

[woody 73]

Man don't ever let that avE into my shop he takes all the fun out of everything killing those tools...

Festool has there following and yes they were the first kids on the block. I see them in lots of shops but I never bought into their tool systems.

I sometimes kick myself a little too hard because when my garage was first built and I had room (KEY WORD) I wanted a panel saw the same kind you see in HD and Lowes cutting plywood for their customers the big boys toys; well I waited for a used one to come up on CL but it did not happen. Darn if my little shop filled up fast and as soon as that happened one came up for sale but I had run out of room.

So I made my table saw area as big as I could and it helps but man do I wish I had more room still kicking myself.

 

[stioc]

I've been using DIY "track saws" for years to rough-cut or breakdown large sheets of plywood before making accurate cuts (straight, repetitive, bevel, dado etc) on my table saw. My track saws are home-made in various lengths using two pieces of straight boards (usually MDF). They make zero-clearance cuts for my 10yr old Skilsaw, the dust collection is non-existent but takes me 20mins to make the 'tracks' from scrap wood. It looks similar to this:

Here's a better pic of one: http://www.woodtalkonline.com/uploads/monthly_07_2011/post-298-0-33070400-1311373467.jpg

I use the straight edge clamps like the Bora one someone posted before but more for my router etc. I prefer the track setup for the circular saw as it makes the whole cutting process dead simple.

 

[Git]

the discussed track saw yes. Several other products are unfortunately from the CHINA.

I fixed it for you, yes Festool does outsource to China

 

[tonydanzah]

Why is construction used to determine value? It doesn't matter if it is made of two 50 cent parts, if it is put together in a way that gives someone value equal to $1000, it is worth it.

I disagree completely, you are paying a premium price for a premium tool. That price should reflect the quality of the components in the product.

 

[danski0224]

Festool, like Bose, has a minimum selling price for their tools. Doesn't matter where you buy it, it is the same price. If a dealer is caught selling for less, they lose the brand. No "add to cart" tricks to get around MAP pricing either.

The only way to get Festool for less is to either buy used or during one of the demo sales that are held every couple of years. The demo sale is a great way to snag slightly used Festool for what can be significant savings (up to 30% off).

Festool also has an unconditional money back guarantee and an excellent warranty, so the cost of those returns is rolled into the pricing of the new tools.

I have read that Festool prices in the USA are actually less than prices for the comparable tool in Europe. As far as price increases go, price reductions seem to happen only when manufacture moves to someplace cheaper or something is cut out of the item to reduce cost.

The tools certainly aren't perfect, but for those interested in building a system, that is the real strong point for Festool.

A guy named Dino started off by making the EZ Smart tracksaw alternative back when Festool was the only game in town in the USA. Look for Eurekazone.

 

[RivennHewn]

I use the Festool at work all the time, but bought the Makita for my home shop.

Really, there isn't a nickels worth of difference in how well they perform.

I have no preference of one over the other.

I would like to make a cut or two with the DeWalt, just for comparison.

 

[Gotcha640]

I've almost finished one of the biggest ply projects I've ever done (princess castle bunk bed) and there were many cuts I'd have used a track on.

For my limited use, though, I can't justify a dedicated saw. I'll be making a kit with 8020.

 

[RonRock]

Thanks for all of the discussion guys. This has been a helpful thread. Lot of good information.

At this point I am leaning towards the Makita. I would step up to the Festool, but I already have a collection of tools that are able to do what I need. So I can't see the reason to go with the Festool system and start replacing everything. I can already see that the saw purchase would also cause a dust collector purchase. Pretty soon I've got the fever!

I've owned a lot of Makita tools and they have all been very good. The one issue I have with Makita is that their cords always go bad before the tool wears out. The rubber insulator that they use must be some kind of cheap ****.

I do have a good cabinet saw. Powermatic with a work table as an outfeed. I've also made and use the plywood rip guides for my circular saw and router. They work OK, but I am hoping for something a little better.

No money spent yet so I'm still open to suggestion.

 

[manwithtools]

I use the Festool at work all the time, but bought the Makita for my home shop.

Really, there isn't a nickels worth of difference in how well they perform.

I have no preference of one over the other.

I would like to make a cut or two with the DeWalt, just for comparison.

I have the DeWalt and it works fine. I've not used the others so I can't make any sort of comparison. I did study them before I bought - 5 years ago - and decided the DeWalt was the best value at the time.