As long as the guy dishing out the cruel stuff is competent himself.
The OP is a hack woodworker and trouncing on someone else for being a hack.
Can you teach woodworking?
- Thread starter Junkmanryan
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As long as the guy dishing out the cruel stuff is competent himself.
The OP is a hack woodworker and trouncing on someone else for being a hack.
OP
Junkmanryan
Well-known member
If that is what you want to hear, sure. I am worse than the dog **** you step in. Your probably right, as most everyone else hates me just as bad as you do.
matt_i
Well-known member
Simple nuts and bolts stuff like gluing up raised panels or setting up the machines to cut square can probably be taught.
Wood is squirmy, on one hand it can be jammed into place with clamps, cool. But on the other hand it won't be the same dimension from one month to the next.
I feel like a functional woodworker. But those who can actually sell for money are a) well-practiced, do it everyday, the stuff that takes me minutes and hours to think about, they are already 2-4 steps ahead. And b) what I don't have is the artistic ability to design beyond "easy to build and have appropriate structure". Wood can be really impressive when done right. The women in my life would rather buy a $50 piece made in indonesia or paint it white than see something handmade with contrasting wood grain, I think that's why I settled on fixing machines
They are made of metal which doesn't really change dimension unless you smash it hard enough...
So, if the idea was to prove that most of us can't make money woodworking...QED. (quod erat demonstradum)
Wood is squirmy, on one hand it can be jammed into place with clamps, cool. But on the other hand it won't be the same dimension from one month to the next.
I feel like a functional woodworker. But those who can actually sell for money are a) well-practiced, do it everyday, the stuff that takes me minutes and hours to think about, they are already 2-4 steps ahead. And b) what I don't have is the artistic ability to design beyond "easy to build and have appropriate structure". Wood can be really impressive when done right. The women in my life would rather buy a $50 piece made in indonesia or paint it white than see something handmade with contrasting wood grain, I think that's why I settled on fixing machines
They are made of metal which doesn't really change dimension unless you smash it hard enough...So, if the idea was to prove that most of us can't make money woodworking...QED. (quod erat demonstradum)
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OP
Junkmanryan
Well-known member
Keep it coming, this is getting good. I got a shop thread over in the gallery section that needs to be **** on as well.
Last post for me; this thread is a dead horse.
Don't even know you, man, why would I hate you? You posted something along the lines of, "my buddy's been taking woodworking classes for two years but he *****/is unteachable, as proof here's what I can do, and here's how ****** he is." Looking for pats on the back but got called out on being a **** friend instead. Pretty simple. You can whine about being treated like dog **** if you want, but you kinda acted like dog **** in your first two posts. Don't lose sleep over my opinion.
I've never posted in that thread nor do I care what's in it.
Don't even know you, man, why would I hate you? You posted something along the lines of, "my buddy's been taking woodworking classes for two years but he *****/is unteachable, as proof here's what I can do, and here's how ****** he is." Looking for pats on the back but got called out on being a **** friend instead. Pretty simple. You can whine about being treated like dog **** if you want, but you kinda acted like dog **** in your first two posts. Don't lose sleep over my opinion.
I've never posted in that thread nor do I care what's in it.
OP
Junkmanryan
Well-known member
Ya know you want to kv, its at two stars now, go get em! Bring it down to one!
OP
Junkmanryan
Well-known member
Come back! You still need to insult me and my shop!
OP
Junkmanryan
Well-known member
I even updated my signature just for you!
Ahh, you're talking about Crazy Bill's thread; I gotcha. Not gonna go there.
You probably haven't been here long enough to remember or have read his first one (linked in the OP), which was locked because it ended up the same as where the current one is going. I did post in that one years ago, but contrary to what you might think I never called him a ****.
Bill has serious mental problems with hoarding and he likes to come here for sympathy and abuse. He and the other GJ members know he isn't about to change, but he likes to come here, get assailed, and then publicize his self pep talks which in turn gets him ridiculed and then he feels sorry for himself and hopes to get pats on the back. Read the original thread too. You will see it over and over and over ad nauseum. But, Bill's definitely not a ****.
He's a nice, honest guy with genuine mental problems and unfortunately he opens himself up for public torture.
And I highly doubt he would post and ridicule his friend's ****** tables.
OP
Junkmanryan
Well-known member
Dunno who your talking about. I was saying to go troll my shop thread.
shoot summ
Well-known member
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- Jun 8, 2010
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- 2,953
Not to be offensive but there are some issues with the first table/pics. If that is your work I apologize.
OP
Junkmanryan
Well-known member
Hey, your right. It was my 1st table attempt that wasn't meant to be particularly fancy. Some here don't get that though.
This post had me
, it really "hit the nail on the head". Something I doubt the OP's friend could do with a hundred tries
. Time to fish or cut bait, if that's his best after 2 years, it's time to take up knitting or something. Torturing wood is just........wrong.Off-Street Parking
Well-known member
You sort of just threw a bunch of food into the koi pond and are surprised that there is a feeding frenzy? 
Try directing the conversation a bit more instead of just reacting to it, and you might get a more helpful result. 
What does your friend do? What have they gone through in his classes? Is he comfortable with the tools? How often does he need help? Did he make a crooked piece on purpose? ... And what is your woodworking background? We really know next to nothing here.
Try directing the conversation a bit more instead of just reacting to it, and you might get a more helpful result. What does your friend do? What have they gone through in his classes? Is he comfortable with the tools? How often does he need help? Did he make a crooked piece on purpose? ... And what is your woodworking background? We really know next to nothing here.
Firebird 1
Well-known member
I'm not gonna bash anyones woodworking skills but will add my .02 I think the handcrafted thing is a bit different in the New England area, and I have several friends in that part of the country that are professional woodworkers. But, it is VERY hard to make money building furniture. I have been building period reproductions for years and the income will buy tools and more wood, but it wont make the mortgage payment! I know a guy who is among the best in the country, with many of his pieces in the White House among other important buildings, and he supplements with classes. Most people wont spend a decent amount of money on fine furniture, and those that can afford to will buy an original/antique.
ZRX61
Well-known member
It's ******** light-years ahead of the other table. I have to ask: what does your friend do for work & how old is he?
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creativecars
Well-known member
Junkman...
Try answering some of the real questions.
Don't get **** hurt and caught up with hurt feelings. We all have to start somewhere. Basics are basics weather you are 13 or 30, if its your first table, it wont be your best.
Try answering some of the real questions.
Don't get **** hurt and caught up with hurt feelings. We all have to start somewhere. Basics are basics weather you are 13 or 30, if its your first table, it wont be your best.
OP
Junkmanryan
Well-known member
You sort of just threw a bunch of food into the koi pond and are surprised that there is a feeding frenzy?
What does your friend do? What have they gone through in his classes? Is he comfortable with the tools? How often does he need help? Did he make a crooked piece on purpose? ... And what is your woodworking background? We really know next to nothing here.
Ok, I think a good bit of background is in order.
My friend is the sort that normally works as that guy bagging groceries. Video games in off time.
He is still in high school, where I believe he is in shop class, having taken it the previous two years. I did two years when I was there.
He is pretty comfortable with the tools as far as I know. He doesn't have many, so he has access to my shop. He had an incident with an older table saw that left him afraid of said machine for a while, but the machine has since been taken out of service.
He tends to need help, but the problem is I am a full time college student, that is not usually there. Over the summer I tried to teach him techniques and proper tool use. Had him do some help with a couple of other projects that I did as well.
He did not make a crooked piece on purpose. He made it when I wasn't there.
My experience? Depends on who you ask. I have been doing it for about 4 years now. I currently make money building and selling cutting boards, and other things is I have an order. I did two years of woodworking classes. Spent a lot of time learning on my own as well. Table on 1st page I did a couple of years ago, before I had some of the tools that I have now. Here is a link to my garage thread: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=313136
It has a couple of my recent projects documented.
ZRX61
Well-known member
ok, that gives some context, but at the moment the only way he's going to make money with wood is by delivery truckloads of firewood.
I'd suggest the two of you get together and split the cost of a joiner and portable biscuit joiner.And just for the record... your is possessive, you're means "you are"
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OP
Junkmanryan
Well-known member
Already got a jointer. No biscuit joiner, though. I would be buying it as he never has any money.
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I had a shop teacher like that in both middle and high school. I was one of the few in middle school that built outstanding projects no one else would attempt. The teacher helped me a bit of course. By high school the shop teacher figured out I wasnt an idiot like the other 60% of my class and I built all sorts of stuff. Tables that I made legs ont he lathe (no one ever really used the lathe), I got to use special tools he wouldnt let others touch for safety, I even cut out and helped build electric guitars for several kids.
Even better the autoshop teachers would make me work on their cars lol. So much for study hall-they would find me and I had work to do. As I said before-some just have a gift and can do it well. I couldnt for the life of me place a musical instrument, but I can build you most anything. I can play sports worth a damn, but I can fix your car.
But I had a passion for woodworking, I enjoy working the raw material and making something out of it.
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JunkYardDawg
Well-known member
First of all, Ryan, I doubt you'll lose any customers to your friend.
Secondly, I'd like to say that woodworking as well as any other trade skill can be taught, but there also has to have a spark of intuition in the student. Anyone who works with their hands will need to be able to visualize the work spatially, and have the ability to create what the mind sees. If that guy has been taking lessons for two years then I applaud him, but sheer tenacity isn't enough to learn a craft. True talent springs from within.
Secondly, I'd like to say that woodworking as well as any other trade skill can be taught, but there also has to have a spark of intuition in the student. Anyone who works with their hands will need to be able to visualize the work spatially, and have the ability to create what the mind sees. If that guy has been taking lessons for two years then I applaud him, but sheer tenacity isn't enough to learn a craft. True talent springs from within.
tyyost
Well-known member
I'd have to suggest you both start looking for plans, and build projects together to learn. By your example you have skills to build too, but you have a knack your friend doesn't seem to have. Woodsmith, Norm Abrams, etc have good plans for beginners, Internet plans can be hit or miss. Hit up a local library as they often have good plan books that you can photocopy on the cheap.
I was a woodshop teacher in a previous career. Everyone can do it. Like sports and mechanics some have a higher talent from their creator, but everyone can do it. Remember the first time you drove a screw with a cordless drill how weird it was? Woodworking is many repeating skills, from hand planes, measurement and layout, machining, all have core skills. To learn them you must practice. Plans are a great way to start, especially if you tailor the project to the skill. Your friend needs to learn basic gluing and layout. You need to learn to hide fasteners and slim down your proportions. A joint project or a run of toys for tots could be a great learning activity for both of you.n
I was a woodshop teacher in a previous career. Everyone can do it. Like sports and mechanics some have a higher talent from their creator, but everyone can do it. Remember the first time you drove a screw with a cordless drill how weird it was? Woodworking is many repeating skills, from hand planes, measurement and layout, machining, all have core skills. To learn them you must practice. Plans are a great way to start, especially if you tailor the project to the skill. Your friend needs to learn basic gluing and layout. You need to learn to hide fasteners and slim down your proportions. A joint project or a run of toys for tots could be a great learning activity for both of you.n
bczygan
Well-known member
Is your friend really in love with working wood, or is he just looking at the fact that you make some money with cutting boards, and thinking it would be an easy source of money for him to learn woodworking.
You say he has no money. He's going to need some, just for materials and consumables. If he is serious about this, he needs to get a nest egg together by working. Then he can buy some materials. The obvious start is to do what you are doing, and make some cutting boards. In fact, if you teach him how to do it properly, he can work for you, earning money and giving you a way to make more product and making money off his work.
Bill
You say he has no money. He's going to need some, just for materials and consumables. If he is serious about this, he needs to get a nest egg together by working. Then he can buy some materials. The obvious start is to do what you are doing, and make some cutting boards. In fact, if you teach him how to do it properly, he can work for you, earning money and giving you a way to make more product and making money off his work.
Bill
OP
Junkmanryan
Well-known member
I have to say, I bought one of those KREG Jigs fairly recently, and it makes it look a hell of a lot better.
ratdoggy
Well-known member
They do at that...
I started building a basement bar set up in the last year and the KREG kits are indispensable
mygarageone
Well-known member
Some people just don't have the ability or aptitude to do the trades.
OP
Junkmanryan
Well-known member
I'm not sure, I have a hard time reading him sometimes. Your right about the materials. However, he never seems to have any money. I did help him get some black locust at a sale once, but you need more than one type for cutting boards. Here is a couple that I just completed. The dark wood is IPE, which is $60 per board, and it doesn't last that long. Not sure if he would be willing to spend that on wood. Even other woods aren't cheap. Maple is $40 per board at the lumber yard. Might give him a few bum pieces and tell him to give it a try.
I think I'm going to start on a new table, and see what everyone thinks of the new one. Thinking about maybe basswood.
Attachments
altersaddle
Well-known member
Seems I'm a bit late on this thread, but I think there are a few important points:
One, chop "woodworking" off the title. Can you teach?
In my experiences, there are at least three different learning methods: by being told, by seeing how it's done, and by doing it.
These aren't exclusive classifications. Some people are a mix, or all three, or maybe they learn some other way. That's fine.
To teach, you must know how your student learns, and use that method. Even then, there's no hard and fast rules about how it works. Maybe you will tell someone how to make a table, and then they can make tables! Maybe you show them how to make a table, and they get most of it, but can't quite figure out the last bit.
A big part of the learn-by-experience is that it is likely trial and error. That means there will be errors after the trials, and both the teacher and the student need to be able to identify and move on from that.
Some people can learn by themselves. Others need a guide.
Personally, I would teach woodworking by finding answers to three questions, in this order:
What makes it strong?
What makes it useful?
What makes it beautiful?
You don't need contrasting wood to make a cutting board. You may want it for a beautiful one, but a strong, useful one is just made out of wood that fits together well and is glued up properly.
One, chop "woodworking" off the title. Can you teach?
In my experiences, there are at least three different learning methods: by being told, by seeing how it's done, and by doing it.
These aren't exclusive classifications. Some people are a mix, or all three, or maybe they learn some other way. That's fine.
To teach, you must know how your student learns, and use that method. Even then, there's no hard and fast rules about how it works. Maybe you will tell someone how to make a table, and then they can make tables! Maybe you show them how to make a table, and they get most of it, but can't quite figure out the last bit.
A big part of the learn-by-experience is that it is likely trial and error. That means there will be errors after the trials, and both the teacher and the student need to be able to identify and move on from that.
Some people can learn by themselves. Others need a guide.
Personally, I would teach woodworking by finding answers to three questions, in this order:
What makes it strong?
What makes it useful?
What makes it beautiful?
You don't need contrasting wood to make a cutting board. You may want it for a beautiful one, but a strong, useful one is just made out of wood that fits together well and is glued up properly.
creativecars
Well-known member
Keep practicing and working on projects, work on your style, crafts, furniture or décor pieces.
But doing something to get praise here is not something you need to do. If you need a nicer table, great, but do it for the right reasons.
BioNerd
Well-known member
Woodworking classes can teach basics, but only practice will make a master. He needs field hours.
James-W
Well-known member
I think woodworking is like electronics, you need to be born with a knack for it in order to be really good at it. I mean, you can teach woodworking just like you can teach electronics, but making fine furniture is an art that not everyone is able to master. With electronics you can teach people what the components do, but when they try to troubleshoot a defective piece of equipment, things seem to fall apart unless you have a logical mind that can figure things out.
redmondjp
Well-known member
That is definitely true. I personally witnessed it in shop class. Some people just should not be anywhere near power tools, and now they have the scars to prove it!
Semi-related story about learning skills:
I took a full year of auto body shop class at my local community college. I was dead-set on using the old-school lead metal filler when working on the front end sheet metal on my 1941 Chevrolet sedan.
Getting that lead to just the right temperature to where you can spread it like butter with the wooden paddle - it's about as easy as balancing a pin on its head. It took me all of this one attempt for me to be convinced that the aluminum/epoxy filler was just fine.
It was a lost-art skill that I was not willing to learn. I'm sure that I could have eventually figured it out (after melting a dozen or two pounds of lead onto the shop floor), but I didn't want to take the time.
ZRX61
Well-known member
It's one of those things where you have a few **** ups, then suddenly it clicks & you're doing it. Kinda like welding or painting a car etc.
trainer
Well-known member
A kreg jig has its place, but its not the ultimate joinery method that the people on youtube make it out to be. Its easy and fast, but its still a pretty coarse method.
In the cupboards im building, the carcasses are assembled with pocket holes, the drawers with biscuits and the doors and drawer fronts use rail and stile with routed joints.
pocket holes in the doors or drawers wood have looked like a hack job.
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Kaizen
Well-known member
wtf Ryan is this the same guy you supposedly kicked out of your shop and your parents told you no and we all supported your decision ?
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=313027
If it is you really are a loser.
If its someone else you really need to keep your personal drama to yourself as you seem to have a lot of it for a 20 year old?
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=313027
If it is you really are a loser.
If its someone else you really need to keep your personal drama to yourself as you seem to have a lot of it for a 20 year old?
agree...I only use pocket screws on cheap rustic picture frames and face frames for cabinets...I don't care how strong it is, I just don't care for metal fasteners in my projects other than a few pins to hold trim as the glue dries...but that's just me.
when I used to hangout on the woodnet forums (which when it was popular it made this site tame when it comes to tool frenzy buying and comparing hand tools to power tools), lots of guys treated you like a caveman for using biscuit joiners, others say you have to master hand cut dove tails and hand planes...no router templates or morticing machines...but as long as the project looks good, I say use whatever joinery method you are comfortable with...to each his own.
OP
Junkmanryan
Well-known member
Different person, other guy did get the boot. Believe me, things never get old here...
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