20V Lithium Ion tools use the same batteries, regardless of brand?

[All]

Porter Cable, DeWalt, Craftsman, Black & Decker, & Mac Tools... all seem to use the same 20v lithium ion battery system system, as if made by the same parent company. They are identical in slide mounting style at the bottom of the tool handle, using the same mounting direction and beveled retention and release tab, and are only differentiated by the button and spring design of the release, and various interference tabs in the molding to prevent owners of one brand from buying the batteries of another brand.

This is NOT the case with the 18V Lithium Ion systems, as there are substantial physical as well a few small electrical differences across various brands with 18 volt battery systems. However, in the latest crop of 20 volt lithium ion systems from the brands listed above appear to have all standardized on one battery system manufacturer/supplier/design.

The irony is two fold... first, even though the mechanical attachment and retention systems are common across most of all of the 20v tool brands, they are purposely prevented from being interchangeable with small differences in their plastic molds.

The second irony is that a 20V battery really is still really an 18v battery, but appears to be marketed as a 20v by measuring the elevated surface charge fresh off the charger. Much like a car battery is 12v, but can measure a surface charge as high as 13.2 volts when taken fresh off of a charger with no load being applied.

 

[All]

Black & Decker 20V batteries and charger near identical to Craftsman:

 

[iScream]

Did you open up the cases to see what cells are inside? That makes a huge difference in in the quality of the battery.

And using the wrong charger on certain cells could result in burning your house down or just drastically reducing the life of the battery.

Charge rate is pretty critical.

 

[reader2580]

Dewalt, Porter-Cable, and B&D are all owned by the same company so makes sense to share some of the same parts. They don't want them exactly the same so folks won't be buying cheap batteries for expensive tools.

Makita doesn't have a 20 volt system that I am aware of. They have the 18 volt LXT system.

 

[LB-1911]

The 20v Craftsman "Bolt On" is a re-branded B&D Matrix.

http://www.blackanddecker.com/en-us/products/product-stories/matrix


http://www.craftsman.com/dap/Bolt-O...-4879-9abe-121eb6be0e67&sid=ISx20110429x00001

 

[All]

So we have Craftsman Bolt On, B&D Matrix, and Porter Cable confirmed as dead on similar with very minimal modifications required to use the same batteries with lower price markups.

What I find strange is that reviewers will pan B&D and Craftsman as "cheap", and yet laud Porter Cable as being a "higher quality brand". Yet I have now gone to the hardware stores and carefully examined all three products side by side, and find very little difference in the tools. The chargers are near identical, but for the blocking post in the slide. The batteries only differ as shown in the photos above. The fence plate for the circular saws are identical, and as we know, it is the fence that makes or breaks a saw's true and correct cutting ability.

The Dewalt batteries and chargers are the same also, but appear to require more modifications to make them fit.

I'm trying to see through the "branding", which I find to be meaningless nowadays. All of these products, without exception, are made in China... quite likely at the same factory. They are more like corporate twins, similar to Ford and Mercury, Chevy and GMC, Chrysler and Plymouth... same underpinnings, with different trim and styles.

The 18v, 14.4v, 12v, 9.6v etc battery operated tools of yesteryear seemed to have a LOT more differentiation between brands. Now, the evidence of massive tool company conglomeration appears more apparent than ever.

What is the point of paying for the Porter Cable name, if the Black & Decker at Walmart, or the Craftsman at Sears, is the EXACT SAME TOOL?

 

[iScream]

So you ignored my question. Did you open the cases to see what cells are inside? Lithium batteries aren't something you want to casually screw around with, or just assume that since you were able to hack the cases up and make them fit that it's safe to switch them around.

When you say "the chargers are near identical", did you open them up and examine the circuitry inside?

The fact that everything you are posting is related to plastic cases suggests that maybe you don't really understand what you're doing here.

Maybe the tabs and such are there to make you buy expensive batteries for an expensive tool. Or, maybe those tabs are there to keep you from hurting yourself or someone reading this thread.

 

[All]

iScream, please elaborate more specifically on what exactly you fear might be different "in the cells" between two batteries of the same chemistry, the same year of manufacture, the same polarity orientation, the same voltage, the same amperage rating, the same charging voltage rating, made by the same manufacturer?

 

[stikman56]

You do know that those batteries have electronics in them right? I would venture to guess that from brand to brand they are a bit different and that's not something I wouldn't be messing with them that way without all the facts first. There's a difference even in ni-cad batteries and some have different thermester set-ups from what I remember as well, and they are simple compared to these. JMO

 

[rice rocket]

You do know that those batteries have electronics in them right? I would venture to guess that from brand to brand they are a bit different and that's not something I wouldn't be messing with them that way without all the facts first. There's a difference even in ni-cad batteries and some have different thermester set-ups from what I remember as well, and they are simple compared to these. JMO

I highly doubt that's the case. The electronics are cheap, it's the cells that are the bulk of the cost.

 

[iScream]

iScream, please elaborate more specifically on what exactly you fear might be different "in the cells" between two batteries of the same chemistry, the same year of manufacture, the same polarity orientation, the same voltage, the same amperage rating, the same charging voltage rating, made by the same manufacturer?

First, you do understand that a battery is actually individual cells connected together, right?

How would you know the cells are made by the same manufacturer if you didn't look? I could be wrong about this, as I didn't attempt to check, but I doubt the actual cells are made by Dewalt, Porter Cable, Craftsman, etc. The shape of the plastic case means almost nothing when it comes to the quality of the battery. If you don't actually know what's inside that plastic case then you actually know very little of importance about the whole battery.

There are big differences in quality between cells with the same specs printed on them but made by different factories. Some exceed their specs while other don't come close to meeting them. And the discharge curves can be drastically different as well.

Charging cheap cells at the limits of their capacity and C rating will probably drastically reduce their life compared to charging higher capacity cells with a higher C rating at a more conservative rate. And both extremes could be happening with two different battery/charger combos that have exactly the same numbers printed on the plastic case.

The charger is probably even more important than the batteries when it comes to safety and the useful lifespan of the batts. Good lithium chargers are fairly advanced. And the closer the charge rate gets to the limits of those cells, the more advanced it needs to be. Even with exactly the same battery, a better charger will more closely monitor and balance the voltage of each individual cell.

Maybe all the batteries you mention in this thread are exactly the same inside and all the chargers have exactly the same circuits inside. But apparently you haven't even considered this before hacking on the plastic and making claims about interchangeability.

To focus only on the plastic cases and not understand the actual important stuff inside is not a smart thing to do. People get away with doing things that aren't so smart all the time but it can get ugly pretty fast if you mistreat lithium batteries.

 

[Off-Street Parking]

Be careful... There are numerous reports that the 20V Dewalt system puts the lithium cell protection circuitry in the TOOLS instead of the batteries, while the B+D/PC/Craftsman system put the protection circuitry in the BATTERIES instead of the tools.

Regardless of the similarities in the plastic cases, it would take a deeper understanding of these tools and batteries to do this swap safely - something you can't do without opening them up.

 

[iScream]

Be careful... There are numerous reports that the 20V Dewalt system puts the lithium cell protection circuitry in the TOOLS instead of the batteries, while the B+D/PC/Craftsman system put the protection circuitry in the BATTERIES instead of the tools.

Regardless of the similarities in the plastic cases, it would take a deeper understanding of these tools and batteries to do this swap safely - something you can't do without opening them up.

Do you have any kind of link for that? I'm not sure what lithium protection circuitry would mean, other than maybe a low voltage cutoff.

Even with something like that though, a simple circuit might only measure overall battery voltage where something a little more advanced could cut the power if any individual cell discharged to a min voltage.

 

[AA/FC]

Do you have any kind of link for that? I'm not sure what lithium protection circuitry would mean, other than maybe a low voltage cutoff.

Even with something like that though, a simple circuit might only measure overall battery voltage where something a little more advanced could cut the power if any individual cell discharged to a min voltage.

I believe temperature is a major factor in lithium battery safety. High operating temp can cause fire. High temp can be caused by overworking the tool, or charging to quickly/over charging. I'm am absolutely NOT a lithium battery expert, but I do know that "lithium protection circuitry" includes battery temp monitoring to prevent fire.

 

[iScream]

I believe temperature is a major factor in lithium battery safety. High operating temp can cause fire. High temp can be caused by overworking the tool, or charging to quickly/over charging. I'm am absolutely NOT a lithium battery expert, but I do know that "lithium protection circuitry" includes battery temp monitoring to prevent fire.

I know temp can be used on the charging side but I haven't seen it used in the actual power circuitry. But most of my experience is in the RC world so it may be different with something like a cordless drill. But the loads placed on batteries are pretty brutal in the RC world and I'm not aware of any controllers that monitor battery temp during discharge. The only real protection is low voltage cutoff. And we spend a lot of money on our batteries.

 

[Greg85mcss]

I haven't heard about the other brands but my mac guy just told me their tools directly interchange with dewalt. Hope this saves some of you guys a few bucks.

 

[AA/FC]

I know temp can be used on the charging side but I haven't seen it used in the actual power circuitry. But most of my experience is in the RC world so it may be different with something like a cordless drill. But the loads placed on batteries are pretty brutal in the RC world and I'm not aware of any controllers that monitor battery temp during discharge. The only real protection is low voltage cutoff. And we spend a lot of money on our batteries.

You've never heard of a modern lithium battery cordless tool shutting down because it was worked to it's high temp limit? From what I understand, these modern cordless lithium tools are constantly monitoring temp....charging, or discharging (using the tool).

.

 

[AA/FC]

I haven't heard about the other brands but my mac guy just told me their tools directly interchange with dewalt. Hope this saves some of you guys a few bucks.

That's because MAC and Dewalt are both owned by Stanley

 

[AA/FC]

This is a one page document from Milwaukee explaining battery protection shut-down.


http://www1.milwaukeetool.com/CMS/Diagrams/TIY491.PDF

 

[iScream]

You've never heard of a modern lithium battery cordless tool shutting down because it was worked to it's high temp limit? From what I understand, these modern cordless lithium tools are constantly monitoring temp....charging, or discharging (using the tool).

.

Maybe but I'm not really sure. Thermal protection could be for the battery, the motor or both. I would just have to hear a little more technical detail to really understand. I'm not saying you're wrong.

I own one of the most advanced battery chargers you can buy (Powerlab 6). It "might" have a thermal monitor you can use but it sure isn't common. But again, I'm coming at this from the radio control world. I've seen $1000 RC cars burn to a crisp from a battery or ESC short. Our batteries get really hot in a race but we still don't monitor temps while running. We do with motors and speed controllers though.

 

[Off-Street Parking]

Do you have any kind of link for that? I'm not sure what lithium protection circuitry would mean, other than maybe a low voltage cutoff.

It could be thermal protection (charge and/or discharge), under-voltage discharge protection, under-voltage charging cutoff, over-voltage charging protection, cell balancing, over-current discharge protection....... Any number of things.

For links, just Google search for "Dewalt 20V protection lithium", and find all of the threads on other forums where people are talking about battery modifications and cross-brand battery swaps.

 

[Off-Street Parking]

I own one of the most advanced battery chargers you can buy (Powerlab 6). It "might" have a thermal monitor you can use but it sure isn't common. But again, I'm coming at this from the radio control world.

The RC world is a bit different, as many are willing to run batteries hard right up to their limits to get the most performance possible. Charging R/C batteries is something done with careful math and knowledge of the battery specs. Heck, the R/C market has even produced fire-proof bags specifically to contain LiPo battery fires during charging... It's that well known of a risk. There's no way the consumer tool world (or the lawyers) would accept this kind of situation.

 

[iScream]

RC battery chargers are so good now that the risk is much lower, even charging at pretty high C levels.

I don't actually care enough about cordless drill protection circuits to bother searching for it. Only a certain amount of difference is even possible without having different or additional electrical contact points between the battery and tool or charger. My assumption is that the exposed contact points you see on the battery all connect to individual cells. But that is completely assumed. It's certainly possible that one of them has a variable resistance based on the temp, or something along those lines.

The real point to all of this is that there can be all kinds of differences between batteries and chargers. If someone went through the trouble of designing in mechanical tabs to prevent swapping batteries between tools and chargers it is in no way safe to assume they are just greedy and it's fine to hack the tabs off.

It just might be in some cases but you need to understand the electronics before doing it. And especially before trying to convince other people it's ok to do so.

I've got a couple years of formal education in electronics and 20 years of experience with electric radio control cars and airplanes but I can't tell you for sure what will be inside those battery and charger cases. What I can tell you for sure is that there's more than enough energy stored in one of these batteries to hurt you badly and or do severe damage to your property.

I'll step down from the soapbox now though.

Chris

 

[All]

The Sears Craftsman Bolt On charger, the Porter Cable charger, and the Black & Decker chargers for 20 volt lithium batteries all have automatic shut offs, thermal protection, and identical labels describing identical LED status indications, using identical English words for the instructions printed on the charger. There is no differentiation in the instructions, diagrams, and LED flashing, steady state, and color sequence.

The batteries of the same three brands all say that the cells were made in Japan, with final assembly in China.

Chris, I appreciate your concern, however, some of the assumptions you have made seem to be about me personally (what I have considered or haven't considered, what I'm trying to convince others to do, etc), and you are right, I did not respond to those accusations because this thread isn't about me... it's about tools.

Specifically, (and more accurately, thanks to the guidance of several other respondents in this thread) a subset of 20V Lithium Ion battery operated tools that are all under the corporate umbrella of StanleyBlack&Decker, who owns PorterCable, MacTools, Black & Decker, DeWalt, Bostitch, Facom, Proto, and a number of other brands.

I have dozens of lithium ion batteries in devices for work (not power tools), and I've been using rechargeable battery and charger systems since the 1960's (not very effective back then), so it isn't entirely in a fresh off the boat vacuum that I posted my observations, and asked for the observations and input of others on this topic, which I heartily welcome, including yours.

My original post title ended with a question mark, not a declaration. And the conclusion of my original post ended not by making any recommendation, but rather with a request for corroborative information, or refutation, of the observations I found. And I continue to welcome all commentary that agrees and disagrees with what I've observed.

What I want to ferret out is the theater of branding, versus the reality of the product itself, with respect to these 20V Lithium Ion tools currently on the market.

 

[LB-1911]

If your wondering who owns what brands -

http://toolguyd.com/tool-brands-corporate-affiliations/

 

[iScream]

Yea, umm, I really don't know what else to say. Hopefully some people get the point that blindly cutting tabs off power tool batteries and swapping them around is not a good idea.

 

[All]

Generally speaking, this isn't about "blindly" cutting tabs. A fair amount of thought and consideration transpired before making my (successful) modifications. And despite the success, more information about the commonality and differences of these 20v batteries is still being solicited (hence the posting of this thread). Otherwise, I would generally agree with the point you are trying to make.

However, the specific set of tools discussed in this thread, might be an exception. An author in another article on the Toolgyd website (linked above by LB-1911) seems to agree... "There are only two exceptions I can think of. Black & Decker’s Matrix modular power tools, and Craftsman’s Bolt-On system are designed alike.

Still, that same author also agrees with you in most other cases (use only batteries labeled with the same brand).

 

[jlipper81]

I've been interchanging Craftsman bolt-on and Black & Decker matrix 20 volt batteries and chargers for years they are exactly the same just rebranded.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

 

[Crazyjake8493]

There is no difference between 18v or 20v tools and batteries. They all have a "peak" voltage of around 20V when fully charged, but once used they drop to their operating voltage of 18V.

Dewalt branded their lithium ion batteries and new tools as "20V" to avoid confusion with their older 18V ni-cad lineup. I would assume other brands do this for either the same reason, or that 20 sounds stronger than 18.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Your typical battery power tool uses an 18650 Lithium-Cobalt Oxide (LiCoO2) battery. The 18650 "cell" is 18mm in diameter and 65mm long in a metallic housing (there are a few other physical sizes available, but this is BY FAR the most common).

While there are likely dozens of companies in China, Korea and around the world making these batteries, only a handful are any good. Panasonic (who bought out the world's best NiCad/NiMh company, Sanyo Batteries, a few years ago and is a major partner with Tesla), Samsung, LG and Sony are probably the best. All of the major tools suppliers likely get their cells from these sources. LG seems to be specializing in high capacity, high discharge rate cells. I think they are currently the only legitimate source for 3000 mAh cells.

A fully charged LiCoO2 cell, after it dissipates it surface charge from recharging should measure 3.7V. (Closer to 4.0V with the surface charge.)

18V and 20V battery packs use 5 cells. 12V battery packs use 3. You do the math.

 

[6PTsocket]

Your typical battery power tool uses an 18650 Lithium-Cobalt Oxide (LiCoO2) battery. The 18650 "cell" is 18mm in diameter and 65mm long in a metallic housing (there are a few other physical sizes available, but this is BY FAR the most common).

While there are likely dozens of companies in China, Korea and around the world making these batteries, only a handful are any good. Panasonic (who bought out the world's best NiCad/NiMh company, Sanyo Batteries, a few years ago and is a major partner with Tesla), Samsung, LG and Sony are probably the best. All of the major tools suppliers likely get their cells from these sources. LG seems to be specializing in high capacity, high discharge rate cells. I think they are currently the only legitimate source for 3000 mAh cells.

A fully charged LiCoO2 cell, after it dissipates it surface charge from recharging should measure 3.7V. (Closer to 4.0V with the surface charge.)

18V and 20V battery packs use 5 cells. 12V battery packs use 3. You do the math.

The 12 and 20 volt batteries are the 10.8 and 18 volt batteries before the top charge bleeds off. My old Bosch driil driver and impact came with 10.8 volt batteries that are now sold as a 12 volts.. In Europe it is still 10.8. The same nonsense goes on with the 18/20 volt. It is all advertising hype. If you do the math the honest companies are using 3.6 as the voltage after top charge is gone. SO just came out with a 1/4" electric ratchet with 14.4 volt "micro lithium" batteries. That is 3.6 volts x 4 cells.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[Darkbreeze]

I realize this thread is years old, but I thought I'd chime in anyhow being as there are recent posts.

The DeWalt li-ion batteries are not interchangeable with any of the other Stanley Black and Decker products because DeWalt uses a 5 terminal battery while the others are all four terminal. No modification or interchangeability exists between DeWalt 20v Li-Ion batteries and any other except possibly MAC.

 

[ctrockdog]

To be sure All of these companies, B&D, Porter and Cable, DeWalt, Craftsman, have all been acquired by Stanley Tools of New Brittain CT. I believe that Stanly lets B&D run all of these brands as part of the B&D line. Tomorrow is "Tool Black Friday" at Home Depot and I was looking the DeWalt Hex impact, driver. Then I noticed the B&D impact driver. They are the same except for the color and badging. Of course, B&D had to make the batteries on all these things slightly different on how the power blocks line up. I'm sure with a Dremel tool and a steady hand you can make a set of batteries that can be used between these tools. I have a B&D 18 volt drill that I have had for a few years. It is, in fact, my favorite cordless drill. It's just about the same as the DeWalt in quality and dependability. I have worked on several projects with my buddies and they used DeWalt drills and I used my B&D and it kept up with the same DeWalt offering. So now I"m going to buy this Hex Impact Driver from B&D because it's only 59.00 and not 109.00 dollars. but to be fair, DeWalt gives you yet another tool bag with their impact driver, oh goody. I'm saving my cash and purchasing B&D stuff for the home and saving almost 1/2 the price. AS for Craftsman, not touching that stuff with a ten-foot pole unless they start coming up with some nicer pricing and sales on that stuff. The Craftsman stuff seems to be taking over Lowes, so much for Kobalt...Lowes almost looks like a Sears Tool Center...

 

[Darkbreeze]

It is 99% likely they are in fact NOT "the exact same". The lower priced tool will not use the same amount of motor windings, the same high quality of brushes, or the same high quality gear set inside the transmission, just as examples. Having torn down many of these tools, impacts, drills, sawsalls, etc., from a good many brands and having bought and installed parts for them, I can tell you for certain that while they share some of the same components (In general, not necessarily between these two exact tools you are talking about) like trigger switches or have similar mold designs, there are major differences.

There is absolutely ZERO chance that Stanley Black and Decker or DeWalt are going to use the same quality of components in a 59.00 tool that they use in a 109.00 tool.

I promise you if take the part numbers for both tools and look up replacement parts, there will possibly be a few that are the same but there will be differences in the major internal parts.

 

[All]

After several YEARS of hard usage, I've had ZERO issues using a Sears Craftsman branded 20V charger to charge my Porter Cable branded 20V batteries.

That having been said, I would not use the NEW "Craftsman" branded 20v chargers or batteries in my Porter Cable 20v tools, even though the same company, Stanley Black and Decker, makes both brands, and now OWNS both brands, having recently purchased the Craftsman brand, and since that purchase, now makes the Craftsman 20v tool moldings very similar to how they have made the Porter Cable moldings.

The reason why I still use the Sears Craftsman branded charger, but would never use the new Craftsman branded charger, is because when SBD released the new Craftsman 20v tool line up, they REVERSED the POLARITY of the terminals on the batteries and charger.

So it isn't a matter of a blanket statement of saying "absolutely zero chance" of interoperability any more than it is safe to assume compatibility based on visual similarity.

One has to be inquisitive enough to investigate the differences, and intelligent enough to determine if the differences are significant from a safety standpoint.

 

[jgromada]

Be careful... There are numerous reports that the 20V Dewalt system puts the lithium cell protection circuitry in the TOOLS instead of the batteries, while the B+D/PC/Craftsman system put the protection circuitry in the BATTERIES instead of the tools.

Regardless of the similarities in the plastic cases, it would take a deeper understanding of these tools and batteries to do this swap safely - something you can't do without opening them up.

This may have been mentioned elsewhere on this thread, but DeWalt made an adapter so that their new Lion batteries could be used with their older 18v NiCd based line. None of these older tools have battery protection circuitry designed for Lion batteries so the premise quoted above cannot be true.

Ryobi is the same way but even went further in that newer Lion 18v batteries will work fine with older tools designed for NiCd and Ryobi makes a major point in its advertising. The form factor of the newer Lion battery is the same as the older NiCd batteries.

I think now a days if you have a name brand Lion battery pack it will have protection against high current and a low voltage battery cutoff. Nothing will kill a Lion battery pack faster than draining a battery too much.

My understanding of the extra terminals are used by the attached charger (depends on the specific battery) is for internal battery balancing so no battery is undercharged or in some cases the internal battery temperature. Batteries need to be at a safe level before they can be charged.

I wanted to get a few new tools from Ryobi but didn't want to invest in yet another battery platform so i got an adapter off ebay to allow Dewalt batteries to be used with Ryobi tools. It is well made and works well. I have a little 5 1/2 saw that it picked up for $12 that is real nice.

 

[kythri]

This may have been mentioned elsewhere on this thread, but DeWalt made an adapter so that their new Lion batteries could be used with their older 18v NiCd based line. None of these older tools have battery protection circuitry designed for Lion batteries so the premise quoted above cannot be true.

Not necessarily. The adapter could contain that "missing" circuitry.