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Peace of mind under a Maxjax

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52wrench

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western NYS, land of taxes
Serj,
Thanks for the feedback. I totally understand that Dannmar can't give their blessing to a modification like this nor did I expect it to. I'll gladly take my chances on the warranty, it's certainly not the first time nor will it be the last. I'm already working on a design for a passive locking system that locks every couple inches or so as the lift is raised.
 
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OP
5

52wrench

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Dec 20, 2015
Messages
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Location
western NYS, land of taxes
"Look in the mirror. You just lost a bunch of respect with that comment. Really, WTF? "

:dunno: Whatever, I could give a rat's ***. In my career I dealt with my share of engineers who worked for me and the first words out of their mouth to an old operator or maintenance hand was to the tune of "I'm an engineer and I know everything and you are an idiot." He came across the same way. If you're going to lay down some small arms fire don't be surprised when someone responds with a 115mm.
 

sac02

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Joined
May 15, 2011
Messages
446
What the **** did you just ******* say about me, you little *****? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the **** out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my ******* words. You think you can get away with saying that **** to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across theUSA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. … etc.

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/navy-seal-copypasta


:rolleyes: OK, internet tough guy.

Sorry everyone else, I know I should let this thread die, but I couldn’t help it.

52wrench, I wasn’t trying to attack you personally (which is how you seemed to interpret it) but instead point out safety concerns that I see, both to you and to others that may see this thread. You are correct, I did miss the couple sentences where you said you “ran an online calculator” for buckling load on the beam. But as a trained engineer you should know that stiffer is NOT the same as stronger (or safer). It is my opinion - as someone that has engineering education and works in a facility where we lift dozens (perhaps hundreds) of full size trucks per shift - that modifying equipment with home-brew ideas like this is an inherently bad idea in many (not all) cases. In this case, I feel the risk outweighs the reward.

My comment about working at an automotive OEM (manufacturing facility) was not to engage in an internet ******* match (I also have a BS and MS in mechanical engineering, FWIW), but instead to try to let you know what the best practices for lifting are at a facility where we take safety very seriously.

Best practices are:
1. Proper installation (especially anchoring)
2. Proper vehicle loading/lifting technique
3. Use of auxiliary support stands for the vehicle (not the lift) at front and rear
4. Regular inspection/maintenance of the lift

Danmar has taken on the engineering, manufacturing, and most importantly liability of making a lift specifically marketed towards Joe-Schmo to use in his garage. There seems to be no concerns from anyone who’s used one that the product is inferior in any way. Modifications to their validated and proven design inherently have risk.

Actual catastrophic LIFT (the actual lift, not user error) failures are virtually unheard of (I can’t say I’ve ever heard of one, but I’m not the authority) in properly installed, properly loaded, and regularly inspected/maintained lifts.

I commend you for wanting to feel safe under your lift. In fact, it kind of scares me how many people seem so nonchalant about lifting 3 tons in the air and standing under it. But I feel that the choice you made to modify the equipment in the attempt to increase your safety was not the right one. The way to feel safe under your lift is to install it properly, load and use it properly, inspect it thoroughly and regularly (before each and every lift if you want), and use auxiliary supports for the vehicle. Not by adding stiffening bars to the equipment.

Please take this as constructive criticism, not a personal attack.

:beer:
 
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aka Larry

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Eastern, NC
Funny you came up with this (not haha, but ironic) because I bought my 2-post (Atlas 9KOH) with the overhead cross brace for the same purpose. I always wondered on the baseplate-type lifts (w/o a cross bar) what the loads are like, which are essentially trying to pull the tops of the posts inward. The cross bar helps take that load off the base plates and anchor bolts, which again is why I decided on a cross brace model.

I like your idea and if gives you piece of mind it's more than worth it IMO.

BTW, your idea would fly better here on GJ if you simply painted it red and added a Snap-On logo.
 
OP
5

52wrench

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Messages
69
Location
western NYS, land of taxes
"
Quote:
Originally Posted by 52wrench View Post
What the **** did you just ******* say about me, you little *****? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the **** out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my ******* words. You think you can get away with saying that **** to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across theUSA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. … etc.

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/navy-seal-copypasta

LOL, almost threw up my lunch of roofing nails.

Saco2, no problem, but please help me understand how this cross bar, installed after the vehicle is raised, is going to make the lift less safe??? Forget all the mumbo jumbo generalities about altering an OEM design, etc, etc, just tell me what could happen with it in place that wouldn't happen without it in place.
 

lakeroadster

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When I first red sac02's 2nd post I thought 52wrench had went "Section 8" via a pm :scared:
Good responses by both you fellas. :thumbup:
 
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Cobra96

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Jul 29, 2014
Messages
88
The Greg smith jack stands all the way! Every lift to the high point on the lift when I have to get under it I use the stands and ya can't budge the vehicle.
BTW Serg at Danmar is a gentleman and a professional excellent customer satisfaction.
If your reading this Serg, it would be nice if Danmar could extend the list of accessories to be used with this lift, like fully adjustable safety stands so that the lift could be used at various heights.
A ladder lock system would also be much better.
And maybe a lower stool with adjustable backrest for us dudes over 6'
I know Santa came and left, but hey, we can still wish :)
 

Denwood

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52, Serj has made Danmar's stance pretty clear. That's why I really like dealing with them..they take responsibility, and have a vested interest in owner safety.

On the stress side of things (and by no means definitive), if you were setting up a finite analysis model (we do almost all our product design this way) you would want to model a loaded Maxjax lift at say 3000 and 6000 lbs, model the range of play in the sliding assembly, and column deflection under these loads, and the tolerance of the flow divider. Then you would introduce the constraint of a locking bar. You would need to model the difference in distance between the column bottom and top under the various loads. When you lock the columns together only on the moving assembly, you would find that vertical lift forces were being transferred to horizontal forces between the columns. Under certain conditions, I'm sure these forces could exceed the mechanical anchor spec set in 4" concrete. That's a lot of variables introduced under install conditions, and as a manufacturer, I wouldn't touch it.

I'm interested to see your ideas on the ladder locks..something I'd love to see protecting both lift and lower. Even with ladder locks, I'd still use my short rise stands.

The title of your thread is peace of mind under the Maxjax. I worked back in my student days under contract with Bell, and did oil and chassis lube on all their cars, vans and line trucks in the local shop. This involved a lot of lifts, often alone in the evenings. After installing and using the Maxjax and learning about its hydraulic system, the only concern I have is hose failure and how to react to it.

My process for lifting (call it peace of mind) goes as follows.

1. Center the vehicle at the lift points. I don't have weigh scales so honestly don't attempt mass calculations. The pillar behind the driver is a good bet. There are a ton of good reads out there on proper vehicle centering.

2. Locate frame lift points. This always is the most time consuming process for me as I have 3 and 6" extensions, and truck pads, so always try to find the best (safest) combination. The truck rail pads are always nice when you can use them as the pad cannot slip off the lift point.

3. Lift a few inches and check to see that the pads are where they are supposed to be.

4. Lift until tires are clear, go to the front or rear bumper and try to introduce as much push and twist as I can to check lift points.. Check to make sure the arm locks are engaged and locked. Do a quick scan for leaks.

5. Making sure no one is standing at the front or rear, I crouch down and watch carefully as the lift is done. I do the same during lowering..watch the underside to make sure lowering is level, lock bars are out, etc.

6. Depending on the job, throw two, or four short rise stands under and tension them with light loading.

I'm sure others will comment, but proper anchor installation and those 6 steps make lifting about as safe as it can be without any need for mods. Making sure that you fully focus during lift and lower is critical. If you're tired, leave a lock bar in and start lowering, a vehicle accident can happen in a matter of seconds. Stopping to focus, and watching carefully is so important.

If a hose fails, you need to mentally rehearse the correct action. In most cases this would be to immediately hit the lower lever so the good side will drop as well. If a column velocity fuse engages, the "bad" side will stop lowering, so should you.

One of the fellows who spray foamed my attic ceiling is now dead after a vehicle he was working under fell on him. It slipped off a jack. Safety under a vehicle is something we all need to remind and rehearse, every time we work under a vehicle.
 
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Serj_DMR

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Mar 4, 2015
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Simi Valley, CA
The Greg smith jack stands all the way! Every lift to the high point on the lift when I have to get under it I use the stands and ya can't budge the vehicle.
BTW Serg at Danmar is a gentleman and a professional excellent customer satisfaction.
If your reading this Serg, it would be nice if Danmar could extend the list of accessories to be used with this lift, like fully adjustable safety stands so that the lift could be used at various heights.
A ladder lock system would also be much better.
And maybe a lower stool with adjustable backrest for us dudes over 6'
I know Santa came and left, but hey, we can still wish :)

Aww shucks! Thanks! :D I will pass these suggestions/requests on to my managers and see what is in the works along these lines.

52, Serj has made Danmar's stance pretty clear. That's why I really like dealing with them..they take responsibility, and have a vested interest in owner safety.

On the stress side of things (and by no means definitive), if you were setting up a finite analysis model (we do almost all our product design this way) you would want to model a loaded Maxjax lift at say 3000 and 6000 lbs, model the range of play in the sliding assembly, and column deflection under these loads, and the tolerance of the flow divider...

Denwood has some great points and obviously safety is the priority here. I am by no means an engineer, but I do have access to some here. I will pass on the concerns mentioned here as well as Cobras wish list for santa and if there is any design considerations or changes, I can reply here.

As always, feel free to PM or call us at the number below.
-Serj
 
OP
5

52wrench

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Dec 20, 2015
Messages
69
Location
western NYS, land of taxes
Denwood,

I don't think you read all my posts. I'm putting the cross bar in place after the vehicle is raised and removing it before it is lowered. There are no dynamics involved whatsoever since nothing is moving with it installed so it is not putting any add'l stresses on the sliders, posts, etc. So I'll ask you the same question I asked saco2, what add'l hazards are being introduced by installing the cross bar after the lift is made that would not be there without the cross bar? Forget all the talk about proper installation, warranty, proper lifting, Dannmar, etc, etc,I'm aware of all of that.

Capt. Chrysler - Yes, it's obvious you didn't read the thread. If I had thought it was weak I wouldn't have bought it. I use the cross bar because I feel better when I'm underneath it, not necessary based on all the design calcs but I don't care :dunno:
 

Cobra96

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 29, 2014
Messages
88
52, Serj has made Danmar's stance pretty clear. That's why I really like dealing with them..they take responsibility, and have a vested interest in owner safety.

On the stress side of things (and by no means definitive), if you were setting up a finite analysis model (we do almost all our product design this way) you would want to model a loaded Maxjax lift at say 3000 and 6000 lbs, model the range of play in the sliding assembly, and column deflection under these loads, and the tolerance of the flow divider. Then you would introduce the constraint of a locking bar. You would need to model the difference in distance between the column bottom and top under the various loads. When you lock the columns together only on the moving assembly, you would find that vertical lift forces were being transferred to horizontal forces between the columns. Under certain conditions, I'm sure these forces could exceed the mechanical anchor spec set in 4" concrete. That's a lot of variables introduced under install conditions, and as a manufacturer, I wouldn't touch it.

I'm interested to see your ideas on the ladder locks..something I'd love to see protecting both lift and lower. Even with ladder locks, I'd still use my short rise stands.

The title of your thread is peace of mind under the Maxjax. I worked back in my student days under contract with Bell, and did oil and chassis lube on all their cars, vans and line trucks in the local shop. This involved a lot of lifts, often alone in the evenings. After installing and using the Maxjax and learning about its hydraulic system, the only concern I have is hose failure and how to react to it.

My process for lifting (call it peace of mind) goes as follows.

1. Center the vehicle at the lift points. I don't have weigh scales so honestly don't attempt mass calculations. The pillar behind the driver is a good bet. There are a ton of good reads out there on proper vehicle centering.

2. Locate frame lift points. This always is the most time consuming process for me as I have 3 and 6" extensions, and truck pads, so always try to find the best (safest) combination. The truck rail pads are always nice when you can use them as the pad cannot slip off the lift point.

3. Lift a few inches and check to see that the pads are where they are supposed to be.

4. Lift until tires are clear, go to the front or rear bumper and try to introduce as much push and twist as I can to check lift points.. Check to make sure the arm locks are engaged and locked. Do a quick scan for leaks.

5. Making sure no one is standing at the front or rear, I crouch down and watch carefully as the lift is done. I do the same during lowering..watch the underside to make sure lowering is level, lock bars are out, etc.

6. Depending on the job, throw two, or four short rise stands under and tension them with light loading.

I'm sure others will comment, but proper anchor installation and those 6 steps make lifting about as safe as it can be without any need for mods. Making sure that you fully focus during lift and lower is critical. If you're tired, leave a lock bar in and start lowering, a vehicle accident can happen in a matter of seconds. Stopping to focus, and watching carefully is so important.

If a hose fails, you need to mentally rehearse the correct action. In most cases this would be to immediately hit the lower lever so the good side will drop as well. If a column velocity fuse engages, the "bad" side will stop lowering, so should you.

One of the fellows who spray foamed my attic ceiling is now dead after a vehicle he was working under fell on him. It slipped off a jack. Safety under a vehicle is something we all need to remind and rehearse, every time we work under a vehicle.

Vehicle balance points



http://www.bendpak.com/support/balancing-safety/
 

James E

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Raleigh, NC
There would be no additional stress to the lift or the mechanism if you placed the bar after lifting--except for the addition of whatever the bar weighs, of course. And, if the columns were mounted perfectly parallel to each other and each column raised at the same rate, there shouldn't be any stress to the lift or mechanism even if you attached the bar before lifting.

What we have here is a situation where Danmar has engineered and produced the lift under a certain set of design, marketing and cost requirements. They built it and it works as advertised. As long as it works as advertised, there is no reason (from the company's perspective) to alter the design.

There may be a specific engineering reason that Danmar did not include a cross-bar in their design, and I would have hoped that if that was the case, Serj would have pointed that out. But, Danmar's engineers may have considered adding a cross bar but it was too expensive, or they found it got in the way when working on the underbody, or they found that it simply wasn't necessary and there's really no reason to add one.

The point is that unless there is a specific reason that the crossbar SHOULDN'T be added, adding one doesn't necessarily compromise the function of the lift. Just because the company doesn't add one doesn't mean it's not a good idea.
 

Denwood

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As I said before, I can see no issues installing a cross bar after you lift. That said, it would be faster and safer to just throw the short jack stands under as now you're covered for any type of structural failure, hydraulic issue, imbalance or slipped lift point. Having the jack stands is mighty handy if you need to support a subassembly and lift the vehicle off of it as well.

As far as why discuss safety with Maxjax, as with any piece of equipment, redundancy and an escape plan is the definition of safety. If you are working under something that can kill you, redundancy is common sense. That's what hoist stands are for.

Serj, +2 on the ladder locks...either air actuated or cable. I would buy these in a heartbeat :)
 
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lakeroadster

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So you are saying that during a lift, prior to reaching max height, a hydraulic failure would result in the vehicle doing a free fall to the ground?

:eyecrazy:
 

cad70

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5e8.jpg
 

Denwood

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So you are saying that during a lift, prior to reaching max height, a hydraulic failure would result in the vehicle doing a free fall to the ground?

:eyecrazy:

Not a free fall. There are velocity fuses in each cylinder which are there to stop an uncontrolled fall. If you have a hose failure where fluid is not leaking out fast enough to actuate the hydraulic fuse, one side would keep dropping. Acting quickly and using the lower lever could save you from an upset if this happened.

In the two instances I have read here on the journal of hydraulic fitting/hose failure, it appeared hydraulic fuses did not activate, and one side lowered steadily to the ground. Start at post #31:
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=128513

Ladder locks would address this risk.
 
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lakeroadster

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It's hard to believe anybody would design an automotive lift without locks that engage incrementally during the lift.
 
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pmiranda

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Austin, TX
The point is that unless there is a specific reason that the crossbar SHOULDN'T be added, adding one doesn't necessarily compromise the function of the lift. Just because the company doesn't add one doesn't mean it's not a good idea.

OK, here are a couple possible reasons not to:
1) How do you decide where it's safe to drill holes in the lift carriage to attach this?
2) How do you make sure you don't get corrosion when mixing the steel carriage and aluminum brace?
3) You just added a required step for safely lowering the lift: removal of the brace. (You could mitigate that by allowing the brace to slip open as it reaches the bottom of travel).

And of course it gets in the way and you don't want the thing to be putting horizontal force on the columns while lifting, but I think everybody understands that.

Personally, I think it gives a false sense of safety since it only protects against a very specific kind of failure of the lift and there are several others that are more likely. If you're a fan of Mike Rowe that might ring a bell from his "safety last" speech.
 
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52wrench

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western NYS, land of taxes
Oh boy, here we go again :lol_hitti

1) holes - two 3/8 holes at the center of the carriage are totally negligible from a structural standpoint. You do realize that there are two 1.5" holes at each end of the carriage for the arm pins correct?

2) corrosion - are you serious?

3) removal of the cross beam before lowering the car is a big deal??? It takes me about 30 secs to remove it.
 
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