Any danger in usung used panels or breakers?

[The Rusty Gear]

When I move to my new house, one of the projects is to run a small panel in the garage to supplement the two outlets in there. I was at a garage sale on the weekend and picked up a 7 slot Federal Pioneer panel with a bunch of breakers for $4 !!!!

The panel didn't look too old or to be in bad shape. In fact, the cover didn't even have any of the littles holes for breakers punched out so it was either stored unused, or used without the cover (unlikely I hope . . .)

Are there any caveats to using a used panel or breakers ie do they get worn out or unusable? Bad with age? For $4 I won't be too upset if someone tells me not to use the panel or I'l burn the place down Hopefully though I just saved myself some coin!

 

[mrb]

I sure wouldnt do it. Especially when for example a new 8/16 homeline panel is $16 and breakers are $5ea. It might work fine, but you cant trust the breakers to trip under a fault condition.

 

[rallenc]

I am not familiar with Federal Pioneer, but if upon closer inspection you see that it is Federal Pacific I would certainly not use it. If you Google Federal Pacific you will dee that certain of their breakers have been recalled as fire hazards.

Sorry for the bad news, but as mrb noted a panel the size you are looking for is exceptionally reasonable.

Have a good evening.

Roger

 

[The Rusty Gear]

I am not familiar with Federal Pioneer, but if upon closer inspection you see that it is Federal Pacific I would certainly not use it. If you Google Federal Pacific you will dee that certain of their breakers have been recalled as fire hazards.

Sorry for the bad news, but as mrb noted a panel the size you are looking for is exceptionally reasonable.

Have a good evening.

Roger

Reasonably priced? - Certainly not in my neck of the woods. Best I could find is $40+ for a 4 panel box, and $10 - $15 a breaker!

It is certainly a Federal Pioneer (not pacific) - Same brand as my home breaker box. They're owned by Schnider Electric IIRC.

Below is the same box - (I may have been mistaken ie 8 slots instead of 7) or very similar.

http://www.homedepot.ca/webapp/wcs/...l&recN=112048 4294964303&N=0&Ntk=P_PartNumber

 

[rockwithjason]

FP breakers are called no trips in this part of the world. they are famous for not tripping under fault. I wouldn't install one in my ex mother in law's house and I hate her guts.

 

[baugie]

Suggestion:

Look at the screws of the breaker itself....do they look disclored or "hot"? Are they worn where the screwdriver slot is? Are the contacts of the breaker "hot" also? these are signs of a faulty unit so I would do not use.

 

[LoneGunman]

I cannot believe they call them Federal Pioneer, judging from the "stab lock" reference on the link you posted I would throw that thing out, it is a Federal Pacific just another name.

 

[mrb]

Suggestion:

Look at the screws of the breaker itself....do they look disclored or "hot"? Are they worn where the screwdriver slot is? Are the contacts of the breaker "hot" also? these are signs of a faulty unit so I would do not use.

another thing to check for is corrosion. Look at the rivets holding the case together. If they show signs of corrosion, toss the breaker.

 

[walrus]

Go on Mike Holts website and ask electricians their opinions of FP, 99% will tell you they are trash

 

[Torque1st]

It is certainly a Federal Pioneer (not pacific) - Same brand as my home breaker box. They're owned by Schnider Electric IIRC.

Below is the same box - (I may have been mistaken ie 8 slots instead of 7) or very similar.

http://www.homedepot.ca/webapp/wcs/...l&recN=112048 4294964303&N=0&Ntk=P_PartNumber

That box uses breakers that look identical to the old Federal Pacific Electric breakers. The new Federal Pioneer brand equipment may be closely regulated by UL due to the problems with the old Federal Pacific equipment and be OK.

From my research the problems with the old FPE equipment was with some 30A breakers not meeting trip time-vs-current requirements and some would not trip at all. I have an old FPE main panel that has experienced zero problems but there are no 30A breakers in it. All I have are 15/20A and the 100A main. I have a newer sub panel that has a 30A dual breaker but it is a newer breaker than the recall types.

I would inspect the panel for overheated points and use it. Any brand panel can experience problems due to incorrectly torqued fasteners and contaminated connections.

Remember, Electricians make $$ when they change out a service panel so their opinions may be biased by the economics of the situation.

 

[sberry]

I would toss it just because it is oddball, it will work but it isnt worth the hassle especially as noted above, a Homeline current modern production panel is so cheap. I had some old Federal, finally got rid of the last one a while back. Back in the day before the advent of box stores the jobber in the area sold these Feds, very common here, a replacement breaker is expensive, probably 20$, just not worth the installation hassle with something I consider junk and obsolete.
I have installed a lot of used equipment and its fine but that is queer and suspect at best. I use QO but if I had to do it again probably Homeline due to cost.

 

[The Rusty Gear]

a Homeline current modern production panel is so cheap.

Again, I have yet to see a single "Homeline" panel for sale in Canada. It's a little frustrating when people are talking about a wonderful, cheap product that is unavailable here.

 

[The Rusty Gear]

another thing to check for is corrosion. Look at the rivets holding the case together. If they show signs of corrosion, toss the breaker.

I think I'd probably go with new breakers anyways so I can do 20A circuits instead of 15A.

 

[The Rusty Gear]

So consensus seems to be I should probably get a new panel, even though this panel seems unused. Does anyone have any suggestions OTHER than the homeline panels which seem to be unavailable in Canada?

 

[ripsnortMN]

I wouldnt use them. I got a used 40 amp 220v dual pole breaker from my neighbor. I hooked it up and only one side was hot.

 

[Falcon67]

Can you get GE panels? If you have a Lowes or HD, take a look there. My GE 125A 8/16 circuit panel was a whopping $26 on sale and the breakers I use (the thin ones) are an astronomical $4 each.

[edit] - this may be a homeline panel, I'll have to look.

X42 on the FP breakers - that what was on our house when we moved in. When you could still buy them, one breaker was like $30. All gone now thankfully.

edit 2 - this is the panel: http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...oductId=100168646&N=10000003+90307+502754+780

 

[mrb]

Can you post a photo of the inside of your panel, and the back of one of the breakers?

 

[rsanter]

I would use it is I knew it was noit very old and if I knew the history of it
otherwise , no

bob

 

[Torque1st]

Homeline is the cheapo grade Square-D line.

I use Siemens when I have to install or replace a panel.

I am not afraid of used electrical components at all. Some of them are better than new. I just inspect both old AND new components when I install them.

 

[The Rusty Gear]

Can you post a photo of the inside of your panel, and the back of one of the breakers?

Sure, but it'l be a couple of days because we are taking off for the long weekend tomorrow!

 

[The Rusty Gear]

Homeline is the cheapo grade Square-D line.

I use Siemens when I have to install or replace a panel.

I am not afraid of used electrical components at all. Some of them are better than new. I just inspect both old AND new components when I install them.

What do you inspect them for (anything not yet mentioned in this thread?)

 

[The Rusty Gear]

Can you get GE panels? If you have a Lowes or HD, take a look there. My GE 125A 8/16 circuit panel was a whopping $26 on sale and the breakers I use (the thin ones) are an astronomical $4 each.

[edit] - this may be a homeline panel, I'll have to look.

X42 on the FP breakers - that what was on our house when we moved in. When you could still buy them, one breaker was like $30. All gone now thankfully.

edit 2 - this is the panel: http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...oductId=100168646&N=10000003+90307+502754+780

Lowes is only in Eastern Canada for some reason and the Home Depot (Canadian version) does not seem to carry GE either. A quick search online of the other home improvement stores seems to indicate they don't carry them either.

Geez, you'd think I live on an island of 10 people in the middle of antarctica or something!

 

[Torque1st]

What do you inspect them for (anything not yet mentioned in this thread?)

Contact corrosion or contamination, paint, etc.
Signs of heating
Abuse
Damage
Cracks
Miss-assembly
loose parts
UL or CSA labels that are legit and not fake...

 

[Falcon67]

Lowes is only in Eastern Canada for some reason and the Home Depot (Canadian version) does not seem to carry GE either. A quick search online of the other home improvement stores seems to indicate they don't carry them either.

Geez, you'd think I live on an island of 10 people in the middle of antarctica or something!

Where's Canada again? That's painful! You may be stuck using whatever they have that is decent. Have a great weekend.

 

[mrb]

Contact corrosion or contamination, paint, etc.
Signs of heating
Abuse
Damage
Cracks
Miss-assembly
loose parts
UL or CSA labels that are legit and not fake...

The cost of small molded case breakers is so low, I just dont think its worth the risk and liability to use ones with an unknown history.

 

[Torque1st]

The cost of small molded case breakers is so low, I just dont think its worth the risk and liability to use ones with an unknown history.

I inspect the NEW ones also and have found problems with them. Breakers either work or they don't. They can wear out from abuse, usually in a commercial setting where they are used as light switches but otherwise there are few problems. If you are doing new installs as a business then by all means use new materials.

 

[Gary S]

Around here you can buy either the Square D Homeline or the Cutler Hammer BR box for $50 for a 100 amp box with a half dozen 15A and 20A breakers and a 30A 220v one. (Varies slightly with manufacturer) Lots of people will tell you that you can't use the Square D Homeline.................you need their higher priced box......................and you can't use the Cutler Hammer BR box, you need their CH box, but I have lots of years of good performance from the Square D Homeline, the Cutler Hammer BR, and even the GE cheapie. Most of us aren't running a commercial business here, so these cheaper home level boxes will serve us well, and the added advantage is that the breakers for the cheaper line of boxes are selling for about $4 for 110v and about $8 for 220v.

 

[mrb]

I inspect the NEW ones also and have found problems with them. Breakers either work or they don't. They can wear out from abuse, usually in a commercial setting where they are used as light switches but otherwise there are few problems. If you are doing new installs as a business then by all means use new materials.

I am just saying....you have no way to know the condition of a breaker. You can have one that looks perfect on the outside, but has been tripped a few dozen times and is completely worn out.

 

[Terry Kennedy]

X42 on the FP breakers - that what was on our house when we moved in. When you could still buy them, one breaker was like $30. All gone now thankfully.

You got off easy...

The two-pole ones are nearly $70 now. Home Depot link

The Federal Pacific brand bounced around for a while before it ended up at Schneider Electric, where it still exists. FP is not marketed in the US, but is still marketed in Canada. Schneider also makes Square D (for example, the QO and Homeline series).

I can't comment on the relative safety of the Canadian FP products. There were 2 recalls, one for 15A 1- and 2-pole 15A breakers and another for AFCI breakers. The second one also affected Square D units.

It is not possible to visually inspect (at least) US FP breakers. First, according to this CPSC document (warning - 34 page PDF), FP fraudulently applied UL labels to breakers. Second, the most common failure mode is a no-trip/lockup problem which cannot be determined by visual inspection.

I have personally experienced a short circut condition in which none of the 20A branch breaker, 60A panel main breaker, or the 125A zone breaker (all Federal Pacific) tripped. Fortunately, the next breaker upstream was a 225A GE, which did trip. This short was from one of the hot leads to building steel, and it was pretty impressive.

I have sent over 50 FP and UBI Type F breakers and several complete panels to Jesse Aronstein. The breakers I supplied, and those from others, were tested and the results summarized in this report (24 page PDF). If you don't visit any of the other links I posted, at least look at page 7 (PDF numbering; actual document page is page 5) to see the alarming percentage of failures.

Even if the Canadian Federal Pioneer breakers are perfect and don't have any of the problems found in the US ones, take a look at the size of the "stabs" in these "Stab-Lok" breakers and tell me if you think they're a reasonable size for the rated current. Remember, breakers up to at least 50A can use those same stabs. Looking at the current Schneider CA catalog (yet another PDF), it looks like they have gone to a QO-style bolt-down main breaker. The old US panels I've seen have the older style backfeed breaker carrying the whole panel (100A, 200A) on those same stabs.

 

[Nutty 5.0]

When planning for the new garage I knew the 100amp Cutler Hammer panel wouldn't cut it so an elec. friend upgraded me with a Homeline 200amp service and we used my 100 amp Cutler in the garage.

 

[hidollartoys]

If the panel is not damaged I would use it. Depending on age, you might want to purchase new breakers. As a rule of thumb, as breakers age and are exposed to electrical current they will tend to become weaker IE trip sooner, especially if they have tripped in prior use.

I have installed a variety of used panels in the past. Panels dont get used up or wear out. the disposable items are the breakers. The most important issue is, are replacement breakers available and are the costs comparable to other readly available breakers.

 

[tfi racing]

Go ahead and use it,I have pulled out hundreds of FPE panels and breakers in use and abused by homeowners for anywhere from 20 to 50 years old and even re- used some of them again!I installed a new one in my own garage,I'm fairly confident the Canadian equipment doesn't have the same issues as some of that American stufff has had.You won't find GE panels and breakers at the retail level in most of Canada,so for that reason alone I would stay away as breakers are only available at certain wholesalers(Gescan).

 

[sberry]

These are my favorite threads, they actually deal with probability issues. Cost and investment, risk and reward. I could make a living with a China end wrench, or old American wrench or hammer of unknown origin especially considering the cost compared to other options. The investment is low, as is the failure rate and the technology relatively low as are the catastrophic consequences especially under normal intended use.
But this didn't seem like a life or death purchase or like it needed to be returned to service immediately, I revote for tossing this expensive obsolesced junk, that could be decades old. This is like buying a used tie rod end from the junkyard, sight unseen. The cost of purchase of new is low, labor to install hi and new breakers are usually motor rated, etc, lots of issues.
I reuse panels, breakers but its history, age and use, etc are more known factors, some of those GE setups are great and still pop a new breaker in for 5$ which BTW a guy is more tempted to fudge when a replacement is hi, nothing for us to put the right breaker in something, a new piece of equipment, not tempted to use something just cause we have it. But this panel save for this guy ain't worth it.

 

[thdewey]

I made this mistake myself. After I bought a used panel, I took it apart to find that a fault had occurred or one of the breakers and the main bus bar was burnt through. I ended up buying a 12 breaker GE panel from Lowes. I'll be able to use 1 or 2 30 amp breakers for large loads ie compressor. But the lesson is to thuroughly inspect a used panel before you buy it.

 

[Alberta Burner]

Toss this out with the $4 you spent. Old FP is garbage (as is new IMO). Go to HD and buy a small new panel. I like Square D.

As an electrician in the Edmonton area believe what others are saying, the older FP breakers sometimes did not trip. Better safe then sorry.

 

[IP2GSR]

Just another source of information on the Canadian Federal Pioneer vs US Federal Pacific panels and troubles.

http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/FederalPioneer.htm

Dave

 

[The Rusty Gear]

Toss this out with the $4 you spent. Old FP is garbage (as is new IMO). Go to HD and buy a small new panel. I like Square D.

As an electrician in the Edmonton area believe what others are saying, the older FP breakers sometimes did not trip. Better safe then sorry.

Done! Finally threw out my $4 gamble last night! I'll hope for some Home Depot gift cards for my B-day and go purchase a new box and breakers after we move!