Anyone have solar panels?

[Cruzomatic]

So the solar panel salesman just left. Long story short, with about a $300 electrical bill, we would be saving about $100 per month, paying $100 for the panels and paying about a $100 electric bill. Those are all estimates though.

With rebates and tax credits, looking about $12-$15K out of pocket and the long term plan is to move in about 10 years or so. They would end up paying for themselves in our case.

Thoughts, pros and cons please.

 

[RVDan]

I deal them in small scale. 160 to 320 watts to charge RV batteries. Then everything runs off the batteries.

How much panel would you get for a house? Do you get enough to power anything directly or are you getting a monster battery pack as well?

 

[jives]

We are on our second year of an 8 kW grid tied system -- which was 110% of our yearly use. Our average monthly bill before solar was about $95, but our heat and hot water are propane. Our county had a solar program going and 5 companies competed to provide special incentives.

The cost of the system was about $35K. 1/3rd of the cost was automatically rebated to the solar installer (Astrum), and 1/3rd was returned back to us in tax credits. We financed the other 1/3 through a special arrangement NY state has with NYSEG. The financing, planned to be equivalent to the average bill of $95, is added to the electric bill. Theoretically, the "free" electricity should be equivalent to the loan. Of course, it does not really work that way, in part because part of the bill is not for electricity, but taxes and delivery charges. The highest our bill are, like now, are about $145 month. In the summer, they are about $30.

The loan should be paid off after at total of 11 years. The panels and inverters (micro in our case) have a warranty of 20 years (90% function), should still be at 80-90% at 25 years. These are roof mounted on a directly south facing 9/12 pitch roof. I figure the shingles will need be changed at 20-25 years, at which time we'll take down the panels, install them on the ground or garage or shed, and put in the latest/greatest thin film solar shingles.

Overall, no problems. I'll be happier when they are paid off. If I lived in a place down south, like TX, they would have been up long ago.

 

[Junkman]

I looked into it, and talked with an installer from outside of out area, that is a relative of a friend. He suggested that I wait at least 5 years, because the price of the panels is dropping, and once all the "incentives" go away, the systems will become price competitive. He also said that the panel that they sell to you for $1500, cost them about $500. They are taking all the incentives in profits, and the customer is getting the short end of the stick.
There is also one other item that people are forgetting about, and that is the "maintenance" and transmission of the current, that is presently being billed separately on your monthly bill. When enough homes start to become "utility independent", then who is going to pay for the lines and poles? There will become a yearly charge for that maintenance, over and above the charge that we are presently paying for the meter.
If you are young enough, and think that it is a good deal for you, and you plan on living in the home long enough, then go for it. I know that the installation has a 20 year guarantee, but what I am not certain of, is the company that sold the system going to be around in 20 years?

 

[manwithtools]

You need to understand all the credits and costs in full clarity before you can do the calculations that will determine the true costs and paybacks. I've dealt in this business for more than 6 years , have them (48 KW) on my business building, have also installed large scale grid connected systems (15 - 18 MW).

Incentives, rates and payback vary by location. I'd talk to someone at you local power utility to get the true information.

Most recently the paybacks times have gone up as the incentives have all but vanished. Be sure you understand everything to calculate your payback.

 

[Syberia]

Parents have had them for a little over a year and in that time paid the power company less than $300. That's less than one month's bill during the summer.

I just got them in December. They've cut the bill in half during the last 2 months, and that's with winter sun exposure and at least one tree that needs to be cut down. In the summer they're supposed to eliminate our entire bill and produce extra, to offset the winter usage.

 

[Backpack Hunter]

We use them quite a bit on RV's, and house boats. We maintain a house that is strictly solar with a genset backup. The owner has stated repeatedly that she will never recoup her costs, and is fine with that. She is in western NC.

 

[Streetbu]

They are taking all the incentives in profits, and the customer is getting the short end of the stick.

Ditto. People I have spoken with said exactly the same thing. If you have to be green, or have to be one of the first people in your area to have them, go for it. You may do OK, but you'll do much better if you wait a few more years.... JMO

 

[nadogail]

I have 26 panels on my roof, my cash outlay was $3000. On the advice of my tax man, I have entered into a power purchase agreement. That means I pay the solar company a fixed price, for the next 20 years, of 14.25 cents per KWH of panel production, my excess is sold to the utility. In round numbers, that $3000 will be paid back in less than 2 years.

The solar company is responsible for maintenance and repairs of the panels and inverter for the 20 year life of the agreement. I am presently 76, so a 20 year agreement gives me confidence.

Prior to the installation, I paid the utility $350 per month for gas and electric. Now I pay $150 for electric and average $40 for gas. Because of my individual tax situation with owning rental properties, my accountant advised me that I would see no benefit from the Solar Rebates. On the anniversary of my Utility Net Metering Agreement, we will settle up, I will get paid for my over production (if any).

I am not sure if I have the best possible deal, but I am confident my personal situation is good.

I urge you to discuss any tax rebate claims with your accountant, because everybody's situation is different.

 

[Richard Cranium]

I purchased panel back for Y2k, never installed them. Still packed in the boxes. Lost money one that one.

 

[92GreenYJ]

We bought our house with a solar system previously installed by the po. Yeah. Haven't paid an electric bill in the two years we have owned the house. Also have a solar water heater and I have converted the entire house to LED lighting. SDG&E owes me about $300 according to my last "bill"

 

[Tunajoe]

I just installed a 9.1 is ground mount system for my house.
why not do some home work and do it yourself?
I have about $17,500 invested so far.
I paid about .92 cents per watt for the panels (solar world 285 panels)
my quotes to have it professionally done ranged from 42k to 86k.

 

[bams50]

We are on our second year of an 8 kW grid tied system -- which was 110% of our yearly use. Our average monthly bill before solar was about $95, but our heat and hot water are propane. Our county had a solar program going and 5 companies competed to provide special incentives.

The cost of the system was about $35K. 1/3rd of the cost was automatically rebated to the solar installer (Astrum), and 1/3rd was returned back to us in tax credits. We financed the other 1/3 through a special arrangement NY state has with NYSEG. The financing, planned to be equivalent to the average bill of $95, is added to the electric bill. Theoretically, the "free" electricity should be equivalent to the loan. Of course, it does not really work that way, in part because part of the bill is not for electricity, but taxes and delivery charges. The highest our bill are, like now, are about $145 month. In the summer, they are about $30.

The loan should be paid off after at total of 11 years. The panels and inverters (micro in our case) have a warranty of 20 years (90% function), should still be at 80-90% at 25 years. These are roof mounted on a directly south facing 9/12 pitch roof. I figure the shingles will need be changed at 20-25 years, at which time we'll take down the panels, install them on the ground or garage or shed, and put in the latest/greatest thin film solar shingles.

Overall, no problems. I'll be happier when they are paid off. If I lived in a place down south, like TX, they would have been up long ago.

Can't figure out what you're saying. So before the panels your bills were $95 per month and now there is high as $145 per month?? I don't see the savings.

I live in Central New York as well. I have looked at the various solar companies, as well as the people that sell windmills. They all claim to offer savings, but nothing coming close to justifying the expense, even if you can figure out how to get all the grants and rebates offered. And when you remember that sales people are going to give the best case scenario, i've yet to see either offer a payback that makes them worth my effort, including hoping that nothing expensive goes wrong with the system during the payback period.

I ran into this same thing when I built our new house in 2004. Back then I got briefly gung ho about geothermal heat. There were a few companies selling systems hear back then. The pitch was that you use ground temperature to both heat and cool your house for no cost other than the cost of the pump to circulate the water. No cost heat, and then you reverse the pump when you get no cost central air during the summer!

I never did find out how it worked; the cost of the system showed an 8 to 10 year payback… If everything worked perfectly as claimed and there were no system failures. And that was with the sales person's optimistic projections. I didn't think it would be worth that even on a proven system, let alone something new. The sales people claimed geothermal was going to be revolutionary in our area. All three of the places I talked to were out of business within a few years.

I am not a greenie, and feel no need to be a peacock to everybody about how much I love the environment. So that not being the case, I can't see where it makes sense to spend five digits to save a few dollars a month. I might not live long enough to see the payback, even if everything functions perfectly.

I am for wind and solar power, but it has to make enough sense for me to screw with it. And, I expect them both to get to that point. They are just not there yet. And when they get there I don't want to have spent thousands of dollars on equipment that is suddenly obsolete.

 

[bams50]

I just remembered a fun story from the late 70s about solar power.

My father got sucked in by a salesman selling a solar heater for his shop. It consisted of an inflatable bag about the size of a king size mattress. That had a 5 inch hose connected to it that went into the building and connected to a big fan box. As near as I can remember, the bag was inflated and angled towards the sun, and the fan pulled air across the double layer inside the bag to produce heat. Dad paid a lot of money for it at the time, a few hundred dollars, because he was going to heat the shop for free. As you can guess, it never worked worth a ****. And in a brief time seem like go on the bag, and, amazingly, the salesman was nowhere near to be found LOL

 

[yeldogt]

Make sure you can use the tax credits. I get hit with the AMT -- I can't use the credits most years .. same problem with electric cars. I have to lease.

I looked into it and in my case it was 15 years before I made a profit -- the cost of the system was = to my usage. I took advantage of another program in NJ for energy efficiency.

I really wanted to do it in PA -- .20 KWA and no NG .... I just could not make the numbers work.

 

[jives]

Can't figure out what you're saying. So before the panels your bills were $95 per month and now there is high as $145 per month?? I don't see the savings.

Each bill has a $95 loan payment plus tax and delivery fee plus any grid electricity we use. In the winter we are not creating as much solar electricity so we are buying more from the grid. In the summer we sell the extra electricity to NYSEG. Over the course of the year we have net metering, meaning that our average bill is still about $95 per month. The difference now is that that $95 is not going to NYSEG, but rather, to pay for our panels. In 11 years the panels will be ours, and our average NYSEG bill will be about $20 (fees/taxes). This is what we are seeing from friends in the area that did not do the loan.

Of course, this is only affordable because of the incentives and tax rebates. For us it was financially smart and yes, we like the idea of renewable energy.

We also looked into geothermal. The incentives would have been similar, but the overall cost was $20K more. Not worth it, but a big enough system would have allowed us to get off of propane, which is our biggest desire.

 

[ripperd]

Part of the issue here (that another poster alluded to) is that 10 years from now, your base flat charge from the electric company is (probably) going to be higher.

Grid-tie systems use the power company's grid as a service. Currently with net metering you are getting that service for free. Once enough people are doing that, the infrastructure costs will begin to be a large portion of the utilities cost rather than the actual electrical generation. At that point things will change.

The other thing that is a factor that may come up in the future is time of day pricing. Net metering is actually a pretty good deal for the utilities in some areas that peak during high sunlight times. At those peaks, the intra-day price per KW skyrockets. We talking to the point of >$1/kw sometimes. If you are a net metering customer and they are buying your excess solar for $0.15/kw that is a fantastic deal for them.

 

[Jeff95TA]

Another thing to factor in, if you're paying $35K, is the earning potential of that money if it were to be invested.

 

[Jaguar Fan]

I pre-wired my custom home in Las Vegas for 18 KW. I purchased & installed 12KW. I'm now about 7 months in.

Unfortunately, Warren Buffett came along. He bought NV Energy, then lobbied the PUC to impose unconscionable extra monthly fees just to have solar panels in the first place. Moreover, NV Energy implemented a special rate so that if homeowners want to "go green" by purchasing their electricity from a utility-scale solar farm, they can do so -- but the catch is the price NV Energy charges a homeowner for solar-generated electricity is higher than if a homeowner buys "regular" energy.

While this is a Nevada-specific issue for now, it may be a precursor of things to come in your states.


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2016-01-28/musk-vs-buffett-a-solar-war-in-the-desert-heats-up

and

http://www.bloomberg.com/features/2016-solar-power-buffett-vs-musk/

 

[gordo9742000]

We have had panels for about a year and a half. Couldnt be happier. We did a 20 year lease at $70 a month. Our electric bill was $225 a month. Havent had an electric bill for over a year now. Everyone says wait a few years before you do it. Technology will get better. I dont get that. Technology is always getting better. I am saving $150 a month. If a waited 5 years that would be $9000 in missed savings.

 

[jacob_coulter]

There is also one other item that people are forgetting about, and that is the "maintenance" and transmission of the current, that is presently being billed separately on your monthly bill. When enough homes start to become "utility independent", then who is going to pay for the lines and poles? There will become a yearly charge for that maintenance, over and above the charge that we are presently paying for the meter.

I agree, I know in my area, the state is cracking down on the incentives as these giveaways were always sold as just to get it "off the ground". Well, now it's a real industry.

The net metering is really under attack, that's where the utilities are mandated to buy solar electricity at the rate they sell for peak hours. I have to agree, I don't like the idea of subsidizing solar energy. As an example, I have a lot of fruit trees in my yard, I wouldn't expect the grocery store to buy my fruit at the same price they sell it.

In much of the state now, they put a $50 monthly fee for solar because of net metering. That wipes out much of the cost advantage.

I'm not anti-solar, I hope to someday put in solar panels, but you can't expect net metering to be around forever as too many homes will be using it and utility rates will skyrocket for non-solar users in order to subsidize. Once utilities are no longer mandated to buy your solar electricity, the math becomes much different. Hopefully something like battery home storage will be affordable.

 

[101mph]

I know people on the east coast (New Jersey) are getting lots of incentives to where they can have the entire system installed for free as the state covers all the equipment and installation costs.

It's a great deal if you live in that area.

 

[jrj3rd]

Really depends on your situation. I have 7.5Kw system on my house. My after incentives cost was ~$17K. Last year generated $1140 in energy and got $750 in SRECs, for a $1890 return on my investment. Not too many places I can put money and get that kind of return (11%) these days.

 

[nadogail]

There are so many variations because of our local politics. What is going on here is a separate reality from anywhere else.

 

[paranoid56]

We have had panels for about a year and a half. Couldnt be happier. We did a 20 year lease at $70 a month. Our electric bill was $225 a month. Havent had an electric bill for over a year now. Everyone says wait a few years before you do it. Technology will get better. I dont get that. Technology is always getting better. I am saving $150 a month. If a waited 5 years that would be $9000 in missed savings.

you get out of here with your logic. every time somebody pulls that "wait a few years ****" i just as thats true for anything

 

[willf650]

I priced solar three years ago. At that time it was going to take 10 years for a payback. At the time I ran the numbers and with my investment return at the time I could leave the money where it was and pay for my gas and electric for the year and still have my money. That isn't the case now but let's hope prosperous times will return.

I had a difficult time getting any of the companies that came out to give me a purchase price. They all wanted to lease me a system but they didn't want to sell me a system.

When I looked to see if srec's would help I found they were capped at $35 in my area. I don't know how long it was going to be capped. The value was capped to keep them from dropping, not going up in value. Apparently our area is flooded with solar systems and the region is flooded with srec's.

My neighborhood is filled with solar panels now. I would guess around 10% of the neighborhood. I stopped and talked with a few people and they are all leasing their systems.

Leasing didn't see like a good deal to me. I dealt with selling and buying two homes to move in my current house. The house I sold the person basically didn't seem to have enough money to purchase the house. Due to settlement help on my part I think he had to put out around $1000 to move in and actually walked away with a check at settlement. The house I bought was in part due to the fact that the previous buyer's approved financing fell through. Basically he couldn't afford the house and when this region no longer qualified for some type of farm based special financing his loan fell through. I don't plan on living in this house forever and I could see having to buy out the lease for whoever I sold to because he couldn't afford or qualify to assume the lease. The salesman will tell you just the opposite but with my limited dealings wth real estate the past couple years I saw a solar lease as deficit to selling my home.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[gordo9742000]

Yes leasing is not a good deal if you plan on selling. Its tough to convince a skeptical buyer that it would be saving them money. I was skeptical at first. Leasing was good for me because I have no intentions of going anywhere for 20 years. Purchase price was going to be 30 to 40 thousand. At $70 a month it comes out to half the price. Only thing is I dont get all the tax incentives.

 

[jives]

Photovoltaic systems are really only affordable with incentives; my final cost was about $13K, down from about $35K. The incentives are really subsidies from the government, which I generally have issues with. We've not taken others (at one point we qualified for food stamps, and could have cashed in for my clunker, etc.), but I strongly feel that lessening dependence on foreign oil is a national defense issue, as is having a distributed power grid. Second, part of the subsidies are from NY State, which taxes us so much that we could not afford things like solar.

Previous posters were likely right in that the policies of net metering will change, that the power companies will increase their service charges to offset the loss of customers, and other changes may come to make the cost of solar less attractive. But what will also likely happen is that the cost of electricity will continue to rise, and 10 years from now we would be kicking ourselves for not investing in solar sooner.

 

[CobraJake]

I've been on Solar for almost 2 years now. Maybe solar city does a better job of hiding it in the bill but I do not "pay" for panels. Everything was installed and setup for $0.

 

[paranoid56]

Yes leasing is not a good deal if you plan on selling. Its tough to convince a skeptical buyer that it would be saving them money. I was skeptical at first. Leasing was good for me because I have no intentions of going anywhere for 20 years. Purchase price was going to be 30 to 40 thousand. At $70 a month it comes out to half the price. Only thing is I dont get all the tax incentives.

same here, if i do ever decide to sell and its before the end of the lease i plan on just bumping the price of the sell to include the buy out price of the solar.

 

[CobraJake]

same here, if i do ever decide to sell and its before the end of the lease i plan on just bumping the price of the sell to include the buy out price of the solar.

Can you take the panels with you? I'm "leasing" and they said if I move I can just take them.

 

[hh76]

Can you take the panels with you? I'm "leasing" and they said if I move I can just take them.

I'd guess it'd be on your dime, and it wouldn't be cheap to remove and patch the roof.

There are benefits to leasing, but I wouldn't think that that option would be one of them.

 

[willf650]

Can you take the panels with you? I'm "leasing" and they said if I move I can just take them.

I would doubt it. You are leasing a system from them and they are double dipping from it. Once from your payment and once from the systems generation and SRECs. They can probably write all the materials and labor off as a business expense. If the system isn't up and running they lost half of their income if they are only getting lease payments. They also warranty the system. I doubt they will allow you to service it at all much less move it. Remember they also got subsidized by government to put it in. I would imagine that also plays a part in the reason it wouldn't be able to be moved.

 

[Git]

I've been on Solar for almost 2 years now. Maybe solar city does a better job of hiding it in the bill but I do not "pay" for panels. Everything was installed and setup for $0.

Did Solar City place a lien on your house - (they are saying it is not a lien, it is a "fixture filing")

http://watchdog.org/212170/surprise-solar-liens/

 

[danfromsyr]

they return on investment best if/when the rate/kwh increases.
when I reviewd my 2010 to my 2014 electric bills the rate went from $.10/KWh to $.14/KWh in those 4years.
sure the energy market is a volitile commodity, but if/when the rates go up more (supply/demand/regulations/greed) then the solar will have a quicker ROI as it's locked at $.14/KWh
if the rates go back down and energy gets cheaper.. well I'll still convert more to use electric.

 

[NTxAg]

How many folks are finding that solar is cost efficient if there are no tax incentives or other govt. program to offset cost.

Also, any of the folks that have them installed been in a hail storm? How did the panels hold up?

I was looking into it for my new house but I pay about $0.055/kwh and there was no chance it would pay off in any sort of realistic time frame.

 

[hh76]

How many folks are finding that solar is cost efficient if there are no tax incentives or other govt. program to offset cost.

Also, any of the folks that have them installed been in a hail storm? How did the panels hold up?

I was looking into it for my new house but I pay about $0.055/kwh and there was no chance it would pay off in any sort of realistic time frame.

No, not at that electric rate, but keep in mind that others around the country pay 5x as much as you.

In simple math, a 5kw system installed in Phoenix (that's where I did most of my solar installs) would produce about 8,500 kWh per year.

If they were paying .055 per, that would be about $470 per year
If they were paying .25, that would be about $2125 per year.


A simple, rooftop system can be installed for about $2.5 to $3 per watt, so let's say the entire system would cost them $13,750 without any incentives.

That would be a payback of 6.5 yrs at $.25, and 29yrs at .055

6.5 yrs is a pretty good payback for something that is warrantied at 20yrs.

Here in WI, I pay .12/kWh, and would produce about 6600/yr. that's $800/yr, or 17yr payback. Still, not terrible investment.

The modules are tested for 1" diameter hail. I've seen a couple broken, and homeowners insurance covered them.

 

[CobraJake]

I'd guess it'd be on your dime, and it wouldn't be cheap to remove and patch the roof.

There are benefits to leasing, but I wouldn't think that that option would be one of them.

its in the contract its a flat fee of $500 to remove the system and reinstall at another location

 

[CobraJake]

Did Solar City place a lien on your house - (they are saying it is not a lien, it is a "fixture filing")

http://watchdog.org/212170/surprise-solar-liens/

sounds like an unhappy customer...like when someone repeatedly complains about a car and its taken back. Its in the contract that they will not go up in price anymore than 2% each year. And if your leasing and the system is not up to par then it will be fixed. Bc if its not then they aren't making any money.

I was paying .17kwh here in the northeast and signed on with Solar City in June 2014 at a rate of .10kwh. Im almost at a full years worth of use and Ive definitely saved! Im on a colonial so they were able to cover 100% of my electric bill.

 

[G_P]

A friend has them installed on his house. I dont recall his final out of pocket cost but it did require him to cut down several trees to get enough light on the roof. He says it saves him about $50-60 bucks a month depending on the season and weather.
My only issue with his system is the large cluster of boxes on the outside of his house. One is white plastic and appears to be the main controller, one is a disconnect for the system, and one is unmarked other than a "high voltage" sticker and assumed to just be a J box. There is also another disconnect box inside the house. The big cluster of electrical equipment hanging off the side of the house just looks crappy. He tried to get them to move the disconnect 6" further away from the other boxes so that he could build a hinged wood box over the 2 big boxes to hide them and only have the disconnect box visible, but was told that covering them up or even painting them to match the color of the house was not allowed.

With the solar panels and wood heat, he saves quite a bit of money. I'd love to have them on my house, but it would require cutting down a lot of trees in my yard and getting my neighbor to cut down around 4 that are on her property to get enough light due to the way my house is oriented both in terms of compass direction, and proximity to one edge of the lot.