Williams S-51 Super Ratchet Reassembly Problem

[mitch01]

*Problem Solved* Williams S-51 Super Ratchet Reassembly Problem

Hi, I recently became the proud owner of an antique ratchet. Pictures below. I'm very puzzled about how to reassemble it. I removed the threaded cover plate with the two spanner holed, lubricated the pawl and teeth only to find I cannot reinsert the tooted wheel w/o it interfering with the pawl. Furthermore I don't feel any spring action as I move the selector knob between off and on. is there some trick to reassembling this that I don't know?

Any help would be greatly appreciated as this is a very nice tool.

thanks

 

[PowderKeg]

Your switch position is way off - it should be oriented to swing from the 5 thru 6 to 7 o'clock to change directions - 6 o'clock being the handle.

 

[Richard Cranium]

Mitch welcome to the group, like powder keg said, I think your switch is close to 180 degrees off, The switch would get into the way of the release button that away.

 

[mitch01]

The pointer swings between the words 'on' and 'off' but does not move any further in either direction.

It worked before I removed the gear. Have no idea how this happened. how do I relocate the pointer and the the pawl?

 

[ganymede]

Turn the selector (which should also turn the pawl) until you see a small hole in the pawl.
Take a tiny magnet, like the one on the back of a promo screwdriver and stick it next to the hole. A tiny steel wire/pin should stick to the end of the magnet and be easy to remove.
Now with that pin removed you should be able to turn the selector and pawl back to the correct position.
Reassembly requires some fidgeting to line up the holes in the selector switch and pawl so that you can re insert the pin.

 

[PowderKeg]

If it absolutely won't spin around to point down at the handle, then it sounds like the pawl ball on the spring inside has popped up just enough to jam instead of compressing back down. I've had several ratchets apart to clean out with a similar design but only as far as you've gotten - never have removed the actual switch/pawl and spring/ball. All mine would rotate 360 if you tried, although a couple felt darn close to jamming when turning back to the proper orientation. You might try shooting some spray lube down into/around the exposed part of the pawl and rocking the switch to hopefully lube and convince the ball to slip back down. I'd avoid really trying to force it though. Not sure where to go if that doesn't eventually work - like I said I've never had that type any farther apart than you do now.


Well Gany had the answer while I was typing my ignorance. Think I got a spare ratchet or two floating around here - will have to try out Gany's instructions sometime.

 

[ganymede]

....Well Gany had the answer while I was typing my ignorance. Think I got a spare ratchet or two floating around here - will have to try out Gany's instructions sometime.

Ignorance ? No way. You and the op are smart enough to ask questions or set the ratchet aside instead of mangling it.
My knowledge comes from unfortunate trial and error .
Glad I can now fix them and help others too.

edit.. I attd a pic showing the tiny hole and pin. Correct side of pawl would be facing gear if it were in place. Op's pawl is backwards.

 

[mitch01]

I cannot see any hole in the pawl probably because mine doesn't rotate to the position where yours is..

I have a very strong magnet that I salved from a hard drive and tried sliding this down the face of the ratchet while wiggling the selector. No luck. I could try stacking a second magnet to double the force.

Also tried a lot of oil and the selector moves quite easily, unfortunately until it stops. I tried adding it while the ratchet was standing up and letting it sit 15 minutes.

Any other ideas? What if this happened in the ratchet factory?

Here is a drawing that I found from the patent. The part of the pawl that must be touching the spring I think is where number 26's line is pointing on the drawing.

 

[ganymede]

Damn. That *****. The magnet wouldn't work unless you could see the pin, or at least see the hole that it sits in.
Whats happening is that the spring loaded ball that pushes the pawl is stuck in the pawl teeth.
The only thing I can think of is to get yourself some feeler gage stock. Cut a length of it long enough to go all the way behind the pawl so that it comes between the ball and the pawl teeth. The you may be able to rotate the selector to the correct position without even having to remove the pin. The feeler gage stock would have to be thick enough to allow you to push it behind the ball but not so thick that it doesn't fit or the selector won't turn.

 

[jakemac]

I've had this happen as well. It's a PITA. The ball is jamming on the fingers of the pawl because the pawl got turned too far. The only fix I found was to keep tapping the edge of the pawl with a soft punch until the ball releases. First one side and then the other, back and forth until the ball finally slips past the teeth and you can see the hole. Lots of lube can help.

Be careful, frustration can cause you to break the pawl.
Good luck, you'll need it.

OBTW - If this happened at the factory they would probably toss it in the scrap bin to save time. It would be cheaper than paying for the time to fuss with it. Unfortunately we don't have that luxury.

 

[mitch01]

I'll try it tomorrow with the feeler. I'll let you know.

thanks very much for all of the ideas.

 

[PowderKeg]

Yeah, good luck, I can't add any more to what Gany and Jake have well covered.

Dang you Gany, now I'm pulling a few ratchets apart to look for that pin I can definitely see a little play/slippage between the switch face and the pawl I hadn't noticed before on a couple, but I'm also far more paranoid about ending up in the same boat as the OP by turning too far - I've got enough parts ratchets laying around now....

 

[mitch01]

Tried stacking 3 neodymiun hard drive magnets and sliding them down the face. No luck. Apparently the field is absorbed by the tool.

I tried my thinnest feeler leaf (.011") but apparently can't slide it far enough to reach the pin (before it stops).

I feel very bad. Here's my sob story, this ratchet and an axe head from the '40's were given to me by an elderly neighbor in return for favors. His father used the tools years ago.

Anyway can't get much thinner than .011 and still be somewhat rigid, can I?

 

[ganymede]

Okay, forget about the magnets. They aren't going to work because you said you can't see the hole in the pawl.
To use the thickness gage stock you will have to get a long strip of it and cut it. When you get the strip in position as in the photo I attached try stuffing it in with needle nose pliers.
If you can't get the thickness gage stock then maybe brass from an arts n craft store.

 

[mitch01]

Actually I was sliding the 3 super-duper magnets down the face, hoping that they'd drag the spring pin down from the tooth side of the pawl.

The bore in which the pawl rotates, has almost zero clearance between it's surface and the pawl's edges. I couldn't force any grease though using my thumbs for pressure. Unless there's steel shim only .005 or something thick I don't see how that method can succeed. This is an amazingly constructed tool.

I'm letting the head soak overnight in motor oil..at least a liquid can get in there.

 

[ganymede]

Ah, I get it. You're trying to compress the spring and ball so that you can just turn the selector.
Yea, you'd need magnets so strong that you probably wouldn't be able to slide them by hand anyway.
Maybe jakmacs method will work. As said though be real careful.

 

[mitch01]

I ordered a feeler that goes down do .0015". That should slip through.

 

[mitch01]

Been shoving metal stips down as far as about an inch but none of the tries seem to be pushing on the spring /plunger...wiggling selector to and fro as I do this.

I also tried mounting a variable speed jigsaw upside down in a vise, duct taping the ratchet handle to the blade and varying the RPM of the saw in an attempt to match the spring rate of the ratchet.. No luck


any suggestions?

 

[ganymede]

Im at a loss.
The only other thing i can think to do is something I wouldn't recommend.
Take a pair of soft jaw pliers and use them to turn the selector until the pin sheers. Ive done it with 1/4 drive size but I think with 1/2" you are just as likely to break the selector.
Unless you had an extra selector handy Id try Jakemacs method .

 

[mitch01]

Tried tapping on both sides of pawl with a 3/16" brass rod and small hammer. The spring pin just seems to bang into the cavity end I guess. Although after the tapping,I feel a slight click as the selector is turned to the extreme position in one of the two directions. Maybe the spring pin dented the obstruction.

Looking more carefully at the patent drawing ( https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/US1957462.pdf) and your photo, it looks like I may be able to free the spring if I get a good bend in the end of the feeler, so that it will curl around and into the semi circular area of the pawl (between the teeth, where the spring is stuck).

I've been trying to use pieces thin slices a feeler gauge that I cut with scissors. I ordered a 12" piece and will try it w/o reducing the width so much. I need something less than a 1/2".

 

[mitch01]

Problem solved!
I fixed it. It was very strange. After using all the other thicknesses of feeler stock, just for the hell of it I used the .002 and it turned around without a problem!

I think it worked because the .002 fit between the end of the pin and the pawl. The pawl must not have been able to ride over anything thicker.

thanks

 

[ganymede]

Great.
Now never ever turn the selector without the gear in ever again.
Here's a pic of all the pieces so folks in the future can get an idea whats inside.

 

[jakemac]

Hmmmm, my post from last night seems to have disappeared.
Short summary -
Congratulations, I knew that if you kept at it that the ratchet would eventually relent.