Poor Household Water Pressure HELP and info requested!

[NC-Shaun]

Ok, It has been a while since I have been on here as I have been basically working 7 days a week on my mothers home trying to get everything situated for her. This is an overwhelming, monumental feat for me as I am not a plumber,contractor, heating and air guy, but so far with you guys providing help I have been able to complete everything I have attempted so far.

The latest issue I am having is a galvanized MAIN water supply line that is leaking and clogged terribly and the water company is basically REFUSING to fix the issue. Upon further investigation I learned that the latest mayor of our town embessled all the water project funds, was found guilty, convicted, and is now working for the water company to repay the money he stole

So here are the facts ..I have a new black line ran to the curb well shutoff at my property line. I only have 42 PSI there on a good day with terrible volume. I have handled my responsibility and now the rest is on the water company which is clearly not gonna be fixed anytime soon.

I replumbed the entire home with copper and new fixtures.

Now I need to start thinking of installing a water holding tank, and possibly a booster pump. I have a few questions, and if needed I will provide required info any of you request (i am sure you will need further info to calculate requirements)

My first question is, can i run the water line coming into my house into the top of a storage tank WITHOUT using a booster pump, and the output coming out of the bottom of the tank to the home and increase my water pressure and volume? If so, what size holding tank would get me into the 55-70lb water pressure I need and want?

The tank would be 8 feet under the bathroom, and not much further than 20 feet distance from the kitchen and the hose bib. All water lines are very close to each other as water was added at the time of the bathroom, and kitchen addition. (old country 1952 home)

Is there a math formula to at least figure out the actual pressure that would give me an idea of water pressure at the bottom spout of a given size water storage tank? Incoming city pressure NOT included. From there do I add the 42 PSI city pressure into the equation?

As always, you guys are always so helpful. I thank you all in advance and value your input.

 

[Cypherian]

A little google foo found me this http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-to/articles/improving-water-pressure.aspx

Cypher

 

[NC-Shaun]

A little google foo found me this http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-to/articles/improving-water-pressure.aspx

Cypher

I read that prior to posting this thread, however it seemed to be mostly geared toward a bladder style air assisted holding tank, with a booster pump installed at before the holding tank.

Thank You for replying!

 

[DCarr2]

you wouldnt happen to reside in Flint Michigan would you?

 

[Cypherian]

Page 4 Sounds exactly Like what you want to do . I have a well system so I replaced my aging pump and tank with new and fixed my low pressure problem.

"Booster pump
To actively increase the water pressure, you will have to install a booster pump. Installing a booster pump on a city water system, or even a rural water system that uses gravity-fed water, is quite easy. All you do is take the main water line as it enters the house (after the main turnoff valve) and feed it into a jet pump or booster pump. The output of the pump goes to a water-pressure tank, and the output of the tank then goes to the house water pipes. The disadvantage of such a system, if you are used to the constant pressure of city water, is that you now have fluctuating water pressure. But the lowest pressure will still be higher than what you had before, and the upper end may be 20 lb. higher. Typically, a booster system can increase your pressure by 50 lb. to 70 lb., if needed. Expect to pay around $800 or more, plus labor.

Read more: http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-to/articles/improving-water-pressure.aspx#ixzz42ppthPvq
Follow us: @fhbweb on Twitter | FineHomebuildingMagazine on Facebook
"

 

[NC-Shaun]

Page 4 Sounds exactly Like what you want to do . I have a well system so I replaced my aging pump and tank with new and fixed my low pressure problem.

"Booster pump
To actively increase the water pressure, you will have to install a booster pump. Installing a booster pump on a city water system, or even a rural water system that uses gravity-fed water, is quite easy. All you do is take the main water line as it enters the house (after the main turnoff valve) and feed it into a jet pump or booster pump. The output of the pump goes to a water-pressure tank, and the output of the tank then goes to the house water pipes. The disadvantage of such a system, if you are used to the constant pressure of city water, is that you now have fluctuating water pressure. But the lowest pressure will still be higher than what you had before, and the upper end may be 20 lb. higher. Typically, a booster system can increase your pressure by 50 lb. to 70 lb., if needed. Expect to pay around $800 or more, plus labor.

Read more: http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-to/articles/improving-water-pressure.aspx#ixzz42ppthPvq
Follow us: @fhbweb on Twitter | FineHomebuildingMagazine on Facebook
"

I was really hoping to get some info regarding adding ONLY a water storage tank inline, WITHOUT the addition of a booster pump if doing so is beneficial to my low PSI and Volume issue.

 

[larry_g]

A little google foo found me this http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-to/articles/improving-water-pressure.aspx

Cypher

yup, page 4 of the above link is one solution to your problem.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[Cypherian]

I am in no way an expert so I am relying on the info I found some personal exp and with luck some real plumber will chime in and tell you if there is another way . Though, the same article states:

"Houses at the end of the city water line
Though low-pressure problems are more common in rural water systems, city water systems are not immune. Urban houses that sit at the far end of the city water line or tap are often affected. To add a boost for handling temporary water-volume problems, I install a water-pressure tank to store extra water—similar to those used in the country. The tank won’t actually increase the pressure, but the extra water will help boost the volume which, in turn, helps keep the existing pressure up. Install the tank right after the main shutoff valve.

Read more: http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-to/articles/improving-water-pressure.aspx#ixzz42ptWnao2
Follow us: @fhbweb on Twitter | FineHomebuildingMagazine on Facebook

 

[NC-Shaun]

It looks like the general concensus is use the booster pump, check valve, storage tank option. If thats how it needs to be done, thats how I will do it.

I am gonna look online and try and find this Jacuzzi RP2 pump the author of that article chose. I could use some recommendations for the pressure tank still as the author didnt mention the specifics on that.

 

[sublimate]

I was really hoping to get some info regarding adding ONLY a water storage tank inline, WITHOUT the addition of a booster pump if doing so is beneficial to my low PSI and Volume issue.

A tank alone will do nothing for your PSI or your volume.

 

[NC-Shaun]

I am in no way an expert so I am relying on the info I found some personal exp and with luck some real plumber will chime in and tell you if there is another way . Though, the same article states:

"Houses at the end of the city water line
Though low-pressure problems are more common in rural water systems, city water systems are not immune. Urban houses that sit at the far end of the city water line or tap are often affected. To add a boost for handling temporary water-volume problems, I install a water-pressure tank to store extra water—similar to those used in the country. The tank won’t actually increase the pressure, but the extra water will help boost the volume which, in turn, helps keep the existing pressure up. Install the tank right after the main shutoff valve.

Read more: http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-to/articles/improving-water-pressure.aspx#ixzz42ptWnao2
Follow us: @fhbweb on Twitter | FineHomebuildingMagazine on Facebook

Yep, I am at the very end of this water line and on top of the mountain as high up as this line reaches. Anybody above me and around me all got new lines that run paralell to me across the mountain directly above me before the water project funds were stolen by the mayor....My 2 neighbors have 135 PSI and have to regulate their water as its too high for the home. Nice problem to have I guess......

 

[NC-Shaun]

A tank alone will do nothing for your PSI or your volume.

Thats what I needed to know

Thank You

 

[NC-Shaun]

OK guys, what are your thoughts on this one? Due to terrible volume provided by city water line I may still plumb in a holding tank to prevent the pump from getting air bubbles or burning out. I am thinking about this one holding tank coupled with this booster pump.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000QIE6TC/?tag=atomicindus08-20

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B009GKI4T4/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[jkwilson]

Often there is an adjustable pressure regulator in the meter pit.

 

[stikman56]

A tank alone will do nothing for your PSI or your volume.

You would need air at the top of the tank, same as a well system does as far as I would know anyway. On a well system the air in the tank makes the water pressure up, and helps feed it into the pipes when you turn the faucet on and keeps it flowing for some time before the pump turns on.

There are two types of pressure tanks, bladder and non bladder. What the bladder type is for is the type of pump that does not drain the water back out of the line every time it turns off, it ( the non bladder type pump) does this so that it pumps a blast of air into the tank every time it turns on, and from what you are describing, I'm guessing you would need a bladder style tank. You pressurize the tank with air through a schrader valve in the top, and in the case of a well pump system, you set the air pressure at 2 lbs. below the cut-in pressure, which on mine I have at 40 psi. Without that air they just don't function right and the pump turns on and off very rapidly. hey use a pressure switch that you can dial in for the pump cut-in and cut-out.

The plain old steel tank requires that blast of air every time the pump turns on to keep the air in the top of the tank. You wouldn't have that with what you are wanting to set up from what I am gathering.

 

[NC-Shaun]

Often there is an adjustable pressure regulator in the meter pit.

No regulator to be seen here! Yes my meter is now underwater! I emptied the well and watched their supply line leaking and it filled right back up. Yet according to them, the problem is on my end. I will post pics of my neighbors flooding yard that ALSO isnt their fault.....

 

[NC-Shaun]

This is my neighbors yard, where all of the water is mysteriously going. It hasnt been dry in 20 years! This property is right beside the water main, and used to belong to my uncle. I cant recall a time in my life this yard ever dried no matter how dry of a summer. this galvanized water line was installed in 1957 and is only a 2 inch line with 5 homes on it now!

 

[slip knot]

Watch it fill up and watch the meter, if its turning while your meter can is filling its costing you.

40ish psi isn't too bad for muni water. how low does it drop? check with your local DEQ there is a low psi number that has to be met. if it gets below that then the muni water supply has some serious issues to deal with. IIRC its 15psi here and they have to issue a boil water notice. If your pressure is busting the local parameter you need to turn them in. Go to your states environemental quality website and see what they have.

 

[NC-Shaun]

Watch it fill up and watch the meter, if its turning while your meter can is filling its costing you.

40ish psi isn't too bad for muni water. how low does it drop? check with your local DEQ there is a low psi number that has to be met. if it gets below that then the muni water supply has some serious issues to deal with. IIRC its 15psi here and they have to issue a boil water notice. If your pressure is busting the local parameter you need to turn them in. Go to your states environemental quality website and see what they have.

My meter isnt spinning off due to the leak, its on their side thats leaking. I was told to file a complaint with the Public Service Commision by a neighbor, but I live in podunk WV and its the biggest circle jerk I have ever seen so I have doubts this would accomplish anything. The lady that answers the phone at town hall (also the water company) was married to the ex mayors brother that was convicted of embessling the money from the water project. Most of her family is in prison for various crimes ranging from arson,embesslement, to grand theft. Its a real great place I found myself in. My mother refuses to sell it, as it was passed down to her but I would just as soon sell it and start her over somewhere else.

 

[NC-Shaun]

You would need air at the top of the tank, same as a well system does as far as I would know anyway. On a well system the air in the tank makes the water pressure up, and helps feed it into the pipes when you turn the faucet on and keeps it flowing for some time before the pump turns on.

There are two types of pressure tanks, bladder and non bladder. What the bladder type is for is the type of pump that does not drain the water back out of the line every time it turns off, it ( the non bladder type pump) does this so that it pumps a blast of air into the tank every time it turns on, and from what you are describing, I'm guessing you would need a bladder style tank. You pressurize the tank with air through a schrader valve in the top, and in the case of a well pump system, you set the air pressure at 2 lbs. below the cut-in pressure, which on mine I have at 40 psi. Without that air they just don't function right and the pump turns on and off very rapidly. hey use a pressure switch that you can dial in for the pump cut-in and cut-out.

The plain old steel tank requires that blast of air every time the pump turns on to keep the air in the top of the tank. You wouldn't have that with what you are wanting to set up from what I am gathering.

This is the tank I was considering.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000QIE6TC/?tag=atomicindus08-20

I am a tad confused here. This is whats known as a "precharged tank" which I assumed does not require a constant air source, just an initial fill up of air in the bladder set at 2 lbs BELOW the incoming water pressure. Am I mistaken?

This tank would basically provide this pump system a more constant water supply to limit pump cycling or going dry due to poor incoming water supply volume?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B009GKI4T4/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[stikman56]

This is the tank I was considering.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000QIE6TC/?tag=atomicindus08-20

I am a tad confused here. This is whats known as a "precharged tank" which I assumed does not require a constant air source, just an initial fill up of air in the bladder set at 2 lbs BELOW the incoming water pressure. Am I mistaken?

This tank would basically provide this pump system a more constant water supply to limit pump cycling or going dry due to poor incoming water supply volume?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B009GKI4T4/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Yeah, that appears to be bladder type principle tank, maybe with a different style liner as I think they were describing. Same idea though,that should be a screw-off plastic cap on top and a valve to fill the air and plumbing goes in and out of the bottom.
The place I buy my well stuff from told me I didn't need a check valve in the system, they were right, it works perfect without it.
You might want to check with a well and pump outfit if you have one near. Mine, and my well guy gave me some great information when we built this house and had to set it up.

 

[csp]

I've never seen a tank that requires a constant air source and I have swapped out many, many of them.

Yes, a tank would help with the constant water supply problem. The additional holding volume would be replenished when there isn't a demand for water. How effective it is depends on how long someone has a faucet open and how much of the new volume is used before it's tapped out. At that point you're back to the problem you currently have.

 

[CNGsaves]

A tank alone will do nothing for your PSI or your volume.

^ ^^ Not necessarily true. OP hasn't really outright told us WHERE he's at.
I'm guessing he's in North Carolina . . . but don't know for sure.

IF . . . OP was in warm climate with not much risk for freezing . . .
. . . . he . . . COULD . . . install a large tank ABOVE the height of the house.

As a kid, my grandparent's house on farm ONLY had that method for water pressure for wash house and house itself. A rocker style pump was ran to pump water uphill to the 300 gallon tank in attic of the wash house.

OR . . . IF . . . OP had geography to his advantage, he could install a large tank UPHILL from the house (again ABOVE the level of house) which would also enhance both his pressure and volume.

It won't be cheap, but Yes it could be done.

 

[NC-Shaun]

I've never seen a tank that requires a constant air source and I have swapped out many, many of them.

Yes, a tank would help with the constant water supply problem. The additional holding volume would be replenished when there isn't a demand for water. How effective it is depends on how long someone has a faucet open and how much of the new volume is used before it's tapped out. At that point you're back to the problem you currently have.

This is the booster system I am thinking about using. It has a small tank on it, but I would like to have a bit more volume for backup supply. I would just plumb it inline with my main supply line shutoff valve on one end of the T, the other end going to the inlet/check valve of the Duramac booster pump system, and the other would be for a drain valve. Does that sound correct? I guess I could try the Duramac system by itself and see if I have any supply issues? Opinions welcomed and appreciated. I will talk with the local well guys Stikman, Thank You all so much

 

[NC-Shaun]

^ ^^ Not necessarily true. OP hasn't really outright told us WHERE he's at.
I'm guessing he's in North Carolina . . . but don't know for sure.

IF . . . OP was in warm climate with not much risk for freezing . . .
. . . . he . . . COULD . . . install a large tank ABOVE the height of the house.

As a kid, my grandparent's house on farm ONLY had that method for water pressure for wash house and house itself. A rocker style pump was ran to pump water uphill to the 300 gallon tank in attic of the wash house.

OR . . . IF . . . OP had geography to his advantage, he could install a large tank UPHILL from the house (again ABOVE the level of house) which would also enhance both his pressure and volume.

It won't be cheap, but Yes it could be done.

I am a North Carolinian, however this house is located in West Virginia. Freezing is an issue, so those options are not on the table for this application. Any storage tanks will be at the incoming water supply in the basement where it is heated and protected from freezing.

 

[Lunker]

I put that same pump in a house I did last year that had a 3/4 service and 2 full baths and laundry on 2nd floor.

It really improved the pressure from 30 to over 50

Only issue I thought was it basically runs when the water is on and it's a bit loud. I would put it in an insulated room if possible

 

[NC-Shaun]

I put that same pump in a house I did last year that had a 3/4 service and 2 full baths and laundry on 2nd floor.

It really improved the pressure from 30 to over 50

Only issue I thought was it basically runs when the water is on and it's a bit loud. I would put it in an insulated room if possible

Thanks for the input! Did you have any issues with air in your incoming city line? I am considering using a 86 gallon (22 gal water capacity) bladder tank to provide a more air free supply, and to aid the pump keeping a solid water source.


I thought that Duramac pump may make noise, so I plan on mounting the system on a piece of rubber and bolt it to the concrete floor. It will however be in the utility room below the bathroom, and I dont wanna cover up the copper pipes, as it eases maintainance and diagnosis tasks.

On a side note, I have spoke with the Water Company supervisor this morning, and pointed out that they also have a 130 yard galvanized line running to my curb well on my property line after the meter they are also responsible for. He admitted this run and meter wells need replaced.

 

[NC-Shaun]

Well, I just spent over an hour with 2 guys from the water company, I had to explain to them they actually own the line from my meter (130 yards from MY property line) to the curb well/shutofff at my property line. At first he tried to say they dont own that, and I had to inform him of state laws and comfirm the property lines with all the neighbors which they did and we all clearly stated where each one of our property lines are at. It also helped that one one of the elder neighbors beared witness to the utility line right of way paperwork that was signed over to the water company back in the 70s. This helped because evidently the water company never recorded that document with the county and mysteriously vanished.

Bottom line is, they SAY they are gonna replace the entire main line, and distribution runs, and also locate the meter well on MY property line where it is supposed to be anyway. He then informed me that he was NOT allowed to connect to my current line from the property line to the house. I said thats fine with me, when the utility co comes out to mark underground utilities, have them mark mine too and I will run a brand new line to the new meter! Problem solved.....he seemed kinda shocked I am willing to jump thru hoops, but I am fed up here. The new line schematic was drawn before they left my place and will be submitted to engineering for approval. They said they already have the materials at the town facility and are waiting for it to dry out a tad before doing the new installation of mains, runs, and meter wells. ETA is 1-4 weeks max

 

[LB-1911]

^ Great to read this!

Well Done!

 

[NC-Shaun]

^ Great to read this!

Well Done!

Thanks Guys, My fingers are crossed that they follow through with this. The neighbors all seem to be getting a kick out of the fact that an out of towner like myselfcomes in and gets the ball rolling on a fix to a problem that they been having and complaining about for 20 years!

 

[DC73]

Bottom line is, they SAY they are gonna replace the entire main line, and distribution runs, and also locate the meter well on MY property line where it is supposed to be anyway.

Good. If they start balking again at fixing their problem, don't just get the Public Utility Commission involved. Get the state environmental agency and any state water commission involved as well. A leaking main like this can be a major source of contamination entering the public water system.

Good luck.

DC

 

[Lunker]

The pump sounds like a submersible sump pump when running - problem is it runs whenever water is turned on. I had it in an uninsulated utility room so I don't think the concrete helped. I noticed some R-13 put around it deadened the noise but this was a house I was flipping so I didn't want to draw attention.

It's a good pump though and works well but sounds like you won't need it anymore

 

[bczygan]

Yep, I am at the very end of this water line and on top of the mountain as high up as this line reaches. Anybody above me and around me all got new lines that run paralell to me across the mountain directly above me before the water project funds were stolen by the mayor....My 2 neighbors have 135 PSI and have to regulate their water as its too high for the home. Nice problem to have I guess......

Tap into their lines!

 

[NC-Shaun]

The new water line system construction has begun as of yesterday, the progress is on hold today due to bad rains, and thunder storms.

 

[NC-Shaun]

The new water line install was finally completed by the city. Time delays due to poor planning around weather, engineering obstacles and general laziness on the city part. We now have all new water lines from about 400 yards down the mountain. Turns out, 5 houses were running off of a 3/4 inch iron line tapped into the city main. LOL

My meter has been relocated onto my property, as it should have been to begin with.

Now we have 3 inch going to 2 inch, to my 1 inch and 128lbs of pressure. Holds 100 with flush valve wide open. I installed a main line water filter and a new pressure regulator before that at the entry point of my house.

Thanks for all of the help and input. Now, its time to move on and finish the last bit of drains updates and get the new garage/shop built.