A/C expansion valve failure

[Zeke]

I have a 22 month old Day and Night package unit on my roof. The A/C is dead. Fan and compressor running but no cold air. Tech says it's the expansion valve stuck. So he wants to put an additive in the system to free it up. This is gonna cost around $400 because labor is not under warranty and I guess the manufacturer doesn't support additives.

What do you HVAC techs think?

For the record: ICP model PGD3 2.5 ton.

 

[Brian_WK]

Additive = snake oil. Have the expansion valve and filter drier changed. Only real way to fix it.

Brian

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Complete bunk. Replace the metering device. Add a suction filter drier in case of debris from the TEV failure and a liquid line drier because the system will have been open. Evacuate, charge & go. If he starts with an empty recovery cylinder there should be no charge for refrigerant.

Tommy

 

[acmikee]

DON'T DO IT. Replace the txv. Add a suction filter and a liquid line drier.
Did you happen to see what his gauges were reading.

 

[ctfjr]

^^^^ all of the above. good advice

 

[My Old Tools]

Trane had a bunch of these and the "factory" fix was the additive. Apparently worked half the time.

 

[Zeke]

Trane had a bunch of these and the "factory" fix was the additive. Apparently worked half the time.

That's exactly what he told me. He didn't say "half the time" though. As I said, I know this fella well and I really don't think he's out to screw me. He told me the first couple he did he opened the system and cut in a new valve. For some reason he doesn't particularly want to take that route no matter the cost.

 

[txst]

Copeland (the compressor manufacturer) changed the formulation of the rust inhibiter they were using which resulted in stuck expansion valves due to a sludge forming. They worked with Nu Calgon and recommend A/C Renew as an additive to help prevent/breakdown any sludge, and it is fairly effective. Personally, I would rather try the additive then to risk someone opening up the system, copper oxides entering the system, a tech overheating the new valve on replacement, or not pulling a deep enough vacuum to eliminate moisture. Testing from all of the OEM has verified that there is no harm in the additive.

 

[Zeke]

Thank you, txst. Yes, it is a Copeland and the tech noted that right away.

This is a great forum and you guys have stepped up pronto. Makes me feel a lot better. I did just get off the phone with ICP, the manufacturer and they assured me that my warranty is not affected by using the additive. Remains to be seen if it works.

DON'T DO IT. Replace the txv. Add a suction filter and a liquid line drier.
Did you happen to see what his gauges were reading.

All good.

Edit: I am thinking that since my unit is a package that that overall charge is not anywhere near what a split system requires with lines running from the air handler to the condenser. Therefore, I think he may not need to add much quantity of this stuff but rather a smaller amount like 4 ounces. 4 oz is $60 or so plus the labor. I'm sure 95% of his calls are for split systems and he came to the quick conclusion that it was 200 material and 200 service (which seems high but I do understand that the 'kit' used to inject the Renew is a 100 bucks alone). And around here tax is paid on the entire bill and it's 9%.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Additive = snake oil. Have the expansion valve and filter drier changed. Only real way to fix it.

Brian

 

[theoldwizard1]

For $400 I would want a new TXV !

This topic was covered about a year or 2 ago. One of the major suppliers of pumps got a "new and improved" refrigerant oil from a sun-supplier. 10s of thousand of people like you and me, wound up in the same predicament !

They added the "magic juice", tested it and all was good. They were ready to replace the TXV if it did not fix the problem. IIRC, the tech said they would add the "magic juice" even if they replaced the TXV.

Mine was 100% covered under warranty, although it did require pre-approval from the manufacturer.

 

[txst]

You definitely want the tech to add the A/C Renew even if they replace the TXV or add a filter drier. The filter drier will not clean up the sludge or prevent it from forming, and a replacement valve may fail again.

 

[brewchief]

I inquired about this last year to my Bryant wholesaler and was told the additive would be supplied under warranty but not the injection tool, labor on most equipment is only 1 year unless you have an additional labor warranty from the installing contractor.

I hate the idea of the additive but from what I've been told it has worked in most cases, even if the valve is replaced you want the additive added.

 

[theoldwizard1]

You definitely want the tech to add the A/C Renew even if they replace the TXV or add a filter drier.

A/C Renew is about $50-$75. Any decent HVAC tech will have the tool to inject it. 1 hour labor $100-$150 to install and test ?

 

[Zeke]

A/C Renew is about $50-$75. Any decent HVAC tech will have the tool to inject it. 1 hour labor $100-$150 to install and test ?

Contractor service call rates are high in CA due to the exorbitant worker's compensation costs. Anyone who uses a ladder in their work can be expected to be in the high 30 dollar per 100 range. Roofers are 130%. If I hire a roofer employee I pay him 200 each day and send another 260 to the ins co.

I can't complain too much because that did work in a positive way for me for many years. All my competition that had employees had big overhead. I worked as a lone wolf and could make 500/day installing windows.

That was before the recession. Now the Porsche is gone and things aren't so high flyin'. But those rates never came down.

 

[bonneyman]

Only two sources of **** that pugs up the TXV inlet screen: compressor going bad and shedding motor insulation, or bad start-up procedures let contaminants in (or didn't remove them). Sealed system warranties are for 5 years - TXV is a sealed system part. Them not covering it is bunk. They obviously don't care about their customers (common story).

I only used two additives - after the warranty expired and with the system running fine. No additives "fix" problems.

 

[brewchief]

Only two sources of **** that pugs up the TXV inlet screen: compressor going bad and shedding motor insulation, or bad start-up procedures let contaminants in (or didn't remove them). Sealed system warranties are for 5 years - TXV is a sealed system part. Them not covering it is bunk. They obviously don't care about their customers (common story).

I only used two additives - after the warranty expired and with the system running fine. No additives "fix" problems.

The problem with many of these is a rust inhibitor in the compressor oil that causes sludge, you can replace the TXV and it will plug again.

 

[theoldwizard1]

That was before the recession. Now the Porsche is gone and things aren't so high flyin'. But those rates never came down.

THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT IS POLITICAL !

And some people wonder why Trump has so many supporters !

 

[theoldwizard1]

The problem with many of these is a rust inhibitor in the compressor oil that causes sludge, you can replace the TXV and it will plug again.

Which is why you need to add A/C Renew.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Copeland (the compressor manufacturer) changed the formulation of the rust inhibiter they were using which resulted in stuck expansion valves due to a sludge forming. They worked with Nu Calgon and recommend A/C Renew as an additive to help prevent/breakdown any sludge, and it is fairly effective. Personally, I would rather try the additive then to risk someone opening up the system, copper oxides entering the system, a tech overheating the new valve on replacement, or not pulling a deep enough vacuum to eliminate moisture. Testing from all of the OEM has verified that there is no harm in the additive.

The SAME OEM that OK'd the additive that CAUSED the failure in the first place, I might add...

It's a weasel's way out of warranty labor.

Replace the valve. Properly.

Tommy

 

[theoldwizard1]

The SAME OEM that OK'd the additive that CAUSED the failure in the first place, I might add...

From what I have heard, no. Copeland made the switch without telling their customers.

 

[txst]

That is correct. Copeland made the change without the knowledge of the OEMs. Once there were a significant increase in the failure rate of TXV's from all vendors (Danfoss, Parker, etc.) all caused by sludge and all on Copeland equipped systems, the root cause was determined. The TXV manufacturers worked with the OEM's and the issue was discovered.

If you just replace the TXV and add a drier, there is a very good chance the failure will repeat. The root cause is the rust inhibitor, not a TXV defect.

 

[Zeke]

The SAME OEM that OK'd the additive that CAUSED the failure in the first place, I might add...

It's a weasel's way out of warranty labor.

Replace the valve. Properly.

Tommy

The problem with many of these is a rust inhibitor in the compressor oil that causes sludge, you can replace the TXV and it will plug again.

I don't want this to be a circular repair: rinse — repeat, etc. If this fails I well see personally that the old refrigerant is removed and the system flushed. Then I will replace the valve, add a drier as suggested and have the thing charged from a new tank. I don't have a real good vacuum and I probably can't buy the refrigerant personally so It might be prudent to hire that portion out.

I'll have to look at the manufacturer's label when the thing is opened up to see what ICP uses these days.

One question to anyone who might know: why did manufacturers start with the rust inhibitor? And which refrigerant needed it if not all?

 

[brewchief]

The inhibitor was added to the oil before it was put in the compressor from the factory, from what I've heard it wasn't something the manufacturer knew about or knew it could cause a problem.
The only way you could guarantee it can't happen again would be to remove all the oil from the system and that would be pretty tough, have to pull the compressor and dump the oil out and it's still hard to get it all.

I could do it by myself at zero cost and would still do the additive first, if that doesn't fix it then valve replacement would be needed.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[theoldwizard1]

If this fails I well see personally that the old refrigerant is removed and the system flushed.

That would likely mean removing the compressor from the assembly so that the liquid oil inside could be drained and some kind of solvent could be run through it. The oil does atomizes and travels through the whole system ... therefore the whole system needs to be flushed with a solvent.

In the old days, liquid R12 was used because it was a good solvent and it evaporated and left no residue. I have no idea what you would use these days.

 

[Zeke]

That would likely mean removing the compressor from the assembly so that the liquid oil inside could be drained and some kind of solvent could be run through it. The oil does atomizes and travels through the whole system ... therefore the whole system needs to be flushed with a solvent.

In the old days, liquid R12 was used because it was a good solvent and it evaporated and left no residue. I have no idea what you would use these days.

Pirated R-12. I'm just saying that because you did.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Pirated R-12. I'm just saying that because you did.

For many years, the USAF repair manuals for many aircraft fuel/hydraulic systems spec'd R12 ! Not sure what they us no a days.

 

[hghrev]

I work for a Trane dealer and have personally used the oil additive many times and can say that it does work most of the time. We installed the additive in all the units we installed that were assembled using the effected compressors. We did this free of charge by using the factory warranty. We had about 100 units that needed to be treated. We had about a dozen or so that did plug the expansion valve. We did have a couple that were plugged so bad we still needed to replace the valve. But, the additive must still be used to prevent the valve from plugging again. Your tech should be able to check with the manufacturer and see if the compressor was assembled using the rust inhibitor. Make sure you ask about warranty. The biggest issue here is the tech has to determine what exactly caused the failure.

 

[Zeke]

I work for a Trane dealer and have personally used the oil additive many times and can say that it does work most of the time. We installed the additive in all the units we installed that were assembled using the effected compressors. We did this free of charge by using the factory warranty. We had about 100 units that needed to be treated. We had about a dozen or so that did plug the expansion valve. We did have a couple that were plugged so bad we still needed to replace the valve. But, the additive must still be used to prevent the valve from plugging again. Your tech should be able to check with the manufacturer and see if the compressor was assembled using the rust inhibitor. Make sure you ask about warranty. The biggest issue here is the tech has to determine what exactly caused the failure.

All been covered. Thanks and welcome to the GJ. Knowledgeable people are an asset here so please stick around!

 

[Brian_WK]

If this is an OEM issue I would say use the additive but I still am unsure how it is going to flow through the system if the TXV is truly plugged. If it is just restricted I can see it make it to the valve. I would still be worried about the sludge that has Formed already in the system and what it is plugging up.
I still stick with my first instinct and would change the TXV and filter drier as well as add the juice to "prevent" future sludge.
And what a joke that this isn't covered 100% under warranty. They mess up and the consumer pays WTF?
I have a feeling that this is going to cause future issues. It is never good when you have to add more junk to a system to correct junk that was added to the system. Class action anyone?

Brian

 

[Zeke]

Class action seems like a good thought but any one I have ever heard of punishes the manufacturer in concentration but when distribution begins it's not much after the lawyers get done. And it takes forever. If it happens I'll get my notice.

My initial installer who turned out to be a snake never sent in the warranty info. I don't even know where he bought the thing. But now that I'm registering the serial no. will lead to the distributor. The distributors are supposed to cover the parts warranty and I imagine at the end of the year they submit for credit. I may be out of pocket on this one.

 

[theoldwizard1]

If this is an OEM issue I would say use the additive but I still am unsure how it is going to flow through the system if the TXV is truly plugged. If it is just restricted I can see it make it to the valve.

My tech waited for awhile after installing the A/C Renew and checked temps and pressures. He said it there was any further issue that season, they would replace the valve.

 

[theoldwizard1]

My initial installer who turned out to be a snake never sent in the warranty info. I don't even know where he bought the thing.

Snake. Good description.

But now that I'm registering the serial no. will lead to the distributor. The distributors are supposed to cover the parts warranty and I imagine at the end of the year they submit for credit. I may be out of pocket on this one.

Most OEMs have been "stand up" about this. They have their step-by-step procedures for verifying the issue, but after that, the OEM pays the bill.

 

[Zeke]

Snake. Good description.



Most OEMs have been "stand up" about this. They have their step-by-step procedures for verifying the issue, but after that, the OEM pays the bill.

Well, so far after 2 hours of continuous running the valve is still stuck. I decided to let everything cool off and restart later. Maybe the equalization and start up will do the trick. Otherwise... well, I guess it will get a valve installed.

It has a factory drier — don't know about any filters.

 

[txst]

Did you try the "heat and beat" method? Warm up the bulb in your had while GENTLY tapping on the side of the valve to free it up. The added pressure and the vibration may free it up. Once it starts moving, the A/C Renew can start to d it's job.

Worth a shot as a last resort.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

In the old days, liquid R12 was used because it was a good solvent and it evaporated and left no residue. I have no idea what you would use these days.

In the old days they used R11, to flush, not R12...

Tommy

 

[LS6 Tommy]

From what I have heard, no. Copeland made the switch without telling their customers.

Copeland IS the OEM...

Tommy

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Even if someone uses the A/C Renew after the proper repairs, where do you think the sludge GOES?? It doesn't disappear. It gets diluted, but it's still floating around the system. That's why you install a suction line filter, monitor it and replace it with a suction drier core when you no longer have crud collecting in the cartridge.

Tommy

 

[Zeke]

Well, Tommy, it looks like a total rebuild as you suggested in the beginning. I'll forward your comments to the tech when I talk to him. Meanwhile, come Monday morning I'm going to make quite a fuss with the manufacturer and the distributor. If this problem is a common as some think it is, I may find some relief by talking with local manufacturer's rep or sales rep for this region.

My "snake" installer didn't register my unit but I have recently done so after finding this out. I've been told I have a 5 year warranty for parts only. The parts are a fraction of the estimate which all told might run a grand.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Sorry to hear it didn't go well, Zeke.
When it comes to the repairs, I would treat it like a burnout cleanup. If I have room, I sweat in a replaceable core suction filter shell and core. If I don't have room for the shell I install a sealed suction filter drier with inlet and outlet access ports. "Cleanup" (carbon) style units seem to work the best.

After installing the filter drier, run the system for about an hour and check the pressure drop across the filter drier. If it exceeds 3 Psig, replace the drier or core and run the system again. Continue until the pressure drop across the filter drier is as low as possible. If you installed a shell, replace the cleanup core with a regular filter element.

Tommy