Gfci circuit problems

[Whiskeymike]

In my garage, I have a gfci circuit, 110v, on back wall by breaker panel. In the last week, it has reset a few times. The circuit is breaker -> gfci outlet -> outlet -> outlet. On it was a fridge, and a couple wall warts for garage door internet opener internet over power adapter. I removed the fridge and put it on a different circuit. Still popped, and last night within 10 seconds of reset it would pop again and made a creaking noise like the spring wasn't strong enough.

I assumed\hoped it was the gfi outlet so I replaced it tonight. But it immediately pops after reset. I then moved to second leg and removed the third leg going to third outlet, but kept power to second outlet flowing. Turned power on, reset, and it seems fine. I plugged in the little tester dongle and it read everything as being fine.

Now, I'm assuming it has to be the second outlet, the third leg feeding the third outlet, or the third outlet. Correct?

The second outlet feels old and a bit fragile, so I thought I would replace that next. It's about 20 years old.

If that doesn't work, I figured I would replace the third outlet. Then look to the wire. I assume it can't be the breaker since it's not popping when the third leg is disconnected.

Is this logical and the right way to go about trouble shooting this problem? Any other methods?

I have a meter and typical electrical equipment.

 

[kd3pc]

remove any devices plugged in to the sockets and make sure the GFCI does not trip. Give it a bit of time, as you may have an abrasion or something intermittent in the wiring.

the first thing to check is for back stabbed or push in connectors on the sockets, second is for wirenut connections. These connections seldom hold up over time, and often turn in to poor connections, at best. Remove the "push" attached wires and strip, bend and place them under a screw head. Any screw head that does not tighten down, replace the socket with a new one, by all means step up from the $.59 sockets to something mid grade.

I was always taught to pigtail the socket, and if that has been done, check those wire nutted connections for tightness and such.

 

[theoldwizard1]

In my garage, I have a gfci circuit, 110v, on back wall by breaker panel. In the last week, it has reset a few times. The circuit is breaker -> gfci outlet -> outlet -> outlet. On it was a fridge, and a couple wall warts for garage door internet opener internet over power adapter. I removed the fridge and put it on a different circuit.

GOOD ! Refrigerators/freezers in the garage are the one exception to the GFCI rule. Nothing else in the garage can be on that circuit.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

GOOD ! Refrigerators/freezers in the garage are the one exception to the GFCI rule. Nothing else in the garage can be on that circuit.

That exception went away a couple or three code cycles ago. Please don't suggest that it is an exception, it is not.

Charles

From the 2011 code.

210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for
Personnel.
Ground-fault circuit-interruption for personnel
shall be provided as required in 210.8(A) through (C). The
ground-fault circuit-interrupter shall be installed in a
readily accessible location.
Informational Note: See 215.9 for ground-fault circuit interrupter
protection for personnel on feeders.
(A) Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in 210.8(A)(1) through (8) shall have ground-fault circuit interrupter
protection for personnel.
(1) Bathrooms
(2) Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor located at or below grade level not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and areas of similar use
(3) Outdoors
Exception to (3): Receptacles that are not readily accessible
and are supplied by a branch circuit dedicated to
electric snow-melting, deicing, or pipeline and vessel heating
equipment shall be permitted to be installed in accordance
with 426.28 or 427.22, as applicable.
(4) Crawl spaces — at or below grade level
(5) Unfinished basements — for purposes of this section, unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas of the basement not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and the like
Exception to (5): A receptacle supplying only a permanently
installed fire alarm or burglar alarm system shall
not be required to have ground-fault circuit-interrupter
protection.
Informational Note: See 760.41(B) and 760.121(B) for power
supply requirements for fire alarm systems.
Receptacles installed under the exception to
210.8(A)(5) shall not be considered as meeting the
requirements of 210.52(G).
(6) Kitchens— where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces
(7) Sinks — located in areas other than kitchens where receptacles are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside edge of the sink
(8) Boathouses

(B) Other Than Dwelling Units.
All 125-volt, singlephase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in 210.8(B)(1) through (8) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.
(1) Bathrooms
(2) Kitchens
(3) Rooftops
(4) Outdoors
Exception No. 1 to (3) and (4): Receptacles that are not
readily accessible and are supplied by a branch circuit
dedicated to electric snow-melting, deicing, or pipeline and
vessel heating equipment shall be permitted to be installed
in accordance with 426.28 or 427.22, as applicable.
Exception No. 2 to (4): In industrial establishments only,
where the conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure
that only qualified personnel are involved, an assured
equipment grounding conductor program as specified in
590.6(B)(2) shall be permitted for only those receptacle
outlets used to supply equipment that would create a
greater hazard if power is interrupted or having a design
that is not compatible with GFCI protection.
(5) Sinks — where receptacles are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside edge of the sink.
Exception No. 1 to (5): In industrial laboratories, receptacles
used to supply equipment where removal of power
would introduce a greater hazard shall be permitted to be
installed without GFCI protection.
Exception No. 2 to (5): For receptacles located in patient
bed locations of general care or critical care areas of
health care facilities other than those covered under
210.8(B)(1), GFCI protection shall not be required.
(6) Indoor wet locations
(7) Locker rooms with associated showering facilities
(8) Garages, service bays, and similar areas where electrical diagnostic equipment, electrical hand tools, or portable lighting equipment are to be used
(C) Boat Hoists. GFCI protection shall be provided for outlets not exceeding 240 volts that supply boat hoists installed in dwelling unit locations.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Looks like theres a misunderstanding about how GFCIs operate.

They dont give a hoot if an outlet is bad.

The only thing a GFCI cares about is that the current going out on the hot wire is the same current returning on the neutral wire. If they dont match by more than 5ma, then the GFCI trips.

A bad outlet doesnt consumer electricity.

U have leakage current- current is flowing on another pathway back to the neutral bus in the panel.

 

[Whiskeymike]

Looks like theres a misunderstanding about how GFCIs operate.

They dont give a hoot if an outlet is bad.

The only thing a GFCI cares about is that the current going out on the hot wire is the same current returning on the neutral wire. If they dont match by more than 5ma, then the GFCI trips.

A bad outlet doesnt consumer electricity.

U have leakage current- current is flowing on another pathway back to the neutral bus in the panel.

That's what I've read and understand. However, I'm not able to explain how it works now. I replaced the second outlet, cleaning the mud spatter off the wires and clipping 1/4" off the ends. Hooked them up to new outlet and it's currently not tripping. Could it be the resistance of the outlet or wire tips were affecting the current coming back? 6 miliamps isn't much difference. All three outs are back on, and I've put the fridge and other accessories back on. The new gfci outlet I got has an audible alarm, so I'll hear it if it starts tripping again. It's been on for a bit.

Only other idea I have is I moved a wire with cut insulation inside the wall and it's no longer causing an issue. The boxes are plastic so I don't think it had anything to do with the box.

I also tested it right before replacing the outlet and it would not reset, so it's not like there was water in and outlet and it dried up overnight.


Any ideas what it could have been. Crossing my fingers that this is resolved and doesn't return.

 

[checkthisout]

That's what I've read and understand. However, I'm not able to explain how it works now. I replaced the second outlet, cleaning the mud spatter off the wires and clipping 1/4" off the ends. Hooked them up to new outlet and it's currently not tripping. Could it be the resistance of the outlet or wire tips were affecting the current coming back? 6 miliamps isn't much difference. All three outs are back on, and I've put the fridge and other accessories back on. The new gfci outlet I got has an audible alarm, so I'll hear it if it starts tripping again. It's been on for a bit.

Only other idea I have is I moved a wire with cut insulation inside the wall and it's no longer causing an issue. The boxes are plastic so I don't think it had anything to do with the box.

I also tested it right before replacing the outlet and it would not reset, so it's not like there was water in and outlet and it dried up overnight.


Any ideas what it could have been. Crossing my fingers that this is resolved and doesn't return.

An abraded wire in a box? Just a small nick in the insulation. Who knows. Are you by any chance using Leviton gfcis?

 

[afbrian13]

What's wrong with leviton gfci's? I ask because I just picked some up from hd, and have them in the kitchen.

All the NEC code talk...do you have to have gfci on outlets on the cieling dedicated to lights fixtures now? (I.e. plugging in 4ft led fixtures?)

Not trying to high jack, but the questions go with what is being discussed.

Thanks!

 

[Norcal]

What's wrong with leviton gfci's? I ask because I just picked some up from hd, and have them in the kitchen.

All the NEC code talk...do you have to have gfci on outlets on the cieling dedicated to lights fixtures now? (I.e. plugging in 4ft led fixtures?)

Not trying to high jack, but the questions go with what is being discussed.

Thanks!

If they are in a garage, any 15 or 20A 120V receptacles are required to have GFCI protection with no exceptions.

As to Leviton GFCI's, I would rather use Hubbell, or P&S, but they are fine IMO, just won't use Cooper.

 

[Shiftless]

What's wrong with leviton gfci's? I ask because I just picked some up from hd, and have them in the kitchen.

All the NEC code talk...do you have to have gfci on outlets on the cieling dedicated to lights fixtures now? (I.e. plugging in 4ft led fixtures?)

Not trying to high jack, but the questions go with what is being discussed.

Thanks!

That is my understanding as well. I just finished wiring 5 new duplex receptacles for my LED shop lights using conduit at ceiling level. Switch controlled with a GFCI first in line. I consider a receptacle less than 8 feet off the floor to be "readily accessible"
Breaker, switch, GFCI, receptacle, receptacle, receptacle, receptacle. I prefer the heavy duty receptacles where you strip half an inch of wire, slide it behind the metal plate on the side and tighten it down with a screw. No loops necessary. Everyone I know who had back stabbed push in wiring has had trouble. Don't even consider them!!!

 

[Whiskeymike]

An abraded wire in a box? Just a small nick in the insulation. Who knows. Are you by any chance using Leviton gfcis?

Yes, they are Leviton.

 

[BillK]

Breaker, switch, GFCI, receptacle, receptacle, receptacle, receptacle.

Just curious why you would not just use a GFCI breaker instead ? That seems like the easiest way to me.

 

[nadogail]

Years ago when I taught residential wiring, I read that the allowable leakage current in the heaters of a self defrosting refrigerator would be sufficient to trip a GFCI. Therefor dedicated refrigerator circuits were exempted from the GFCI requirement.

This leads me to the following questions:

Do I recall correctly that there was an exemption for this reason?

If the exemption was in place for that reason, what is to be done to accommodate the allowable small leakage current of those refrigerators today? Refrigerators, to my knowledge, can have a service life of many years (when I moved out of my parents home, their old refrigerator was around 20 years old, and still going strong).

I am not trying to argue, just trying to satisfy my intellectual curiosity.

Your answers, even if they are that I imagined the exception and the reason for it, will be appreciated.

Thanks in Advance

 

[Shiftless]

Just curious why you would not just use a GFCI breaker instead ? That seems like the easiest way to me.

True, but there was already an unused breaker in the sub panel and putting a GFCI first in line provided the first receptacle.

 

[dave*99]

Just curious why you would not just use a GFCI breaker instead ? That seems like the easiest way to me.

Its common to see the GFCI receptacle chosen over the GFCI for at least 2 reasons. The GFCI receptacle is less expensive - but quite a bit. And locating the GFCI outlet near the circuit it protects can make it easier for the user find and reset it when a trip occurs. YMMV

 

[Shiftless]

Its common to see the GFCI receptacle chosen over the GFCI for at least 2 reasons. The GFCI receptacle is less expensive - but quite a bit. And locating the GFCI outlet near the circuit it protects can make it easier for the user find and reset it when a trip occurs. YMMV

Good points, Dave
Thanks!
Lots of guys wouldn't even bother protecting a row of receptacles up on the ceiling with GFCI. I ran EMT and included a green grounding wire too. My LED shoplights just have a 2 prong plug.
(No city inspectors)