Garage door experts - here's a headscratcher

[bbs993tt]

I'm building a new house and have come across a design problem. It will have a 4 car garage with 2 double doors that will ultimately hold 6 cars, 2 of which will be on lifts. My man cave is positioned upstairs over roughly the first 1 1/2 bays of the garage. It will have floor to ceiling windows so I can overlook the cars in the 3rd and 4th bays with lifts.

The problem is that the man cave wall doesn't extend far enough to hang the garage door track. It's about 3-4' short and the ceiling height is 21' out past the man cave so that's too high to hang the track from. Pics are attached.

My builder says he can fabricate something that could connect the track to the man cave overhang but it would undoubtedly be ugly and impede my view from the man cave.

The obvious solution is to do 2 roll up garage doors but I can't find anything that matches the style of the house.

Any suggestions?

 

[slidehammer]

How about installing another joist, all by itself, directly above the door track and attaching it to that. This wouldn't block your view much more than the track itself, and would look pretty tidy.

If you can live with a little less view, you could install a shelf between the aforementioned joist and a ledger attached below the upstairs window. It would be a handy place to store stuff.

Stash some wheels up there, or maybe a canoe, and it becomes part of the decor.

 

[timewarp]

I would hang the track for the door under the mancave off a support from the mancave wall, but the tracks for the other door would go straight up the wall and follow the ceiling so that door will go up to the ceiling so it won't block the view from the mancave when the door is open.

 

[oilslick]

put a ledge or porch, change a window to a door.

 

[Jlbc212]

Timewarp has the answer: install high lift doors with track that follow the slope of the roof rafters.

 

[Doorguy]

I am going to assume that you were planning on doing vertical or high lift on the high end with the lifts. For the other issue both suggestions by timewarp and slidehammer are things that would work. Let us know what you decide to do.

 

[lakeroadster]

Here ya go... keeps the rest of us from laying down and standing on our heads to see your photos

Looks like a no holds barred shop... why not take it to the next level with hangar style bi-fold doors?

 

[Ironcrow]

Height of garage door is 8 feet, header is about 2 feet. Position the door track close to the ceiling, it will only extend 6 feet into the garage when open. Half way along the first window? Weld up a bracket out of 1x2 steel tubing or similar cantilevered from the door wall to hold the horizontal track on that side.

 

[bbs993tt]

Thanks everyone for the ideas. I really appreciate it!

How about installing another joist, all by itself, directly above the door track and attaching it to that. This wouldn't block your view much more than the track itself, and would look pretty tidy.

If you can live with a little less view, you could install a shelf between the aforementioned joist and a ledger attached below the upstairs window. It would be a handy place to store stuff.

Stash some wheels up there, or maybe a canoe, and it becomes part of the decor.

Interesting thought, thanks!

I would hang the track for the door under the mancave off a support from the mancave wall, but the tracks for the other door would go straight up the wall and follow the ceiling so that door will go up to the ceiling so it won't block the view from the mancave when the door is open.

Thanks. The second door was already planned to go straight up the wall for that very reason.

put a ledge or porch, change a window to a door.

Thought about that during planning but the width (or depth) of the porch would create an even narrower viewing angle from the back parts of the man cave. Thanks.

Timewarp has the answer: install high lift doors with track that follow the slope of the roof rafters.

Not totally sure what a high lift door is but think I covered that above for door #2. Thanks.

I am going to assume that you were planning on doing vertical or high lift on the high end with the lifts. For the other issue both suggestions by timewarp and slidehammer are things that would work. Let us know what you decide to do.

Yes and will do, thanks.

Here ya go... keeps the rest of us from laying down and standing on our heads to see your photos

Looks like a no holds barred shop... why not take it to the next level with hangar style bi-fold doors?

THANK YOU for fixing those - I'm very low tech and couldn't do it myself. Hate to disappoint but it's really a display for my cars.

LOVE THE IDEA OF HANGAR DOORS!!!!!!!!!!

Height of garage door is 8 feet, header is about 2 feet. Position the door track close to the ceiling, it will only extend 6 feet into the garage when open. Half way along the first window? Weld up a bracket out of 1x2 steel tubing or similar cantilevered from the door wall to hold the horizontal track on that side.

That's what my builder was going to do but would still prefer to do something that doesn't obstruct the view at all. Thanks.

 

[CJ7VFR]

I like the walk out porch idea best.

When the garage door under the Man Cave room is up, part of it will block your view down into the garage anyway, and you won't be able to see there. Plus, even with the door closed, because of the position of the Man Cave wall with the window, your view into the garage bay below the Man Cave is limited, even with the big windows.

Build a porch, or mezzanine, that you can walk out onto, and be the king of all you can see!!

You could put some cool furniture on that space to hang out with your friends drinking beers and telling the guys working down below to stop screwing around and get to work!

Jim

 

[Ironcrow]

LOVE THE IDEA OF HANGAR DOORS!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, this is a good idea but the door does not collapse all the way up to the top header when open. If your opening is 8 feet, you will get an effective 7 foot tall opening? Not to say you couldn't work something out...

That's what my builder was going to do but would still prefer to do something that doesn't obstruct the view at all. Thanks.

Would a horizontal track at the top edge of the window be acceptable? Essentially high lift track on one side? If this is OK, I've got an idea.

 

[DC73]

The problem is that the man cave wall doesn't extend far enough to hang the garage door track.

Can you make the man cave bigger? Move the window wall out to where it needs to be and then use the extra space in the back for storage.

DC

 

[pmiranda]

Before the inspector comes knocking... are those fire-rated windows?

 

[Rewind97]

How about extending your man cave out further?

 

[bbs993tt]

Can you make the man cave bigger? Move the window wall out to where it needs to be and then use the extra space in the back for storage.

DC

Yes, this is a good idea but the door does not collapse all the way up to the top header when open. If your opening is 8 feet, you will get an effective 7 foot tall opening? Not to say you couldn't work something out...
Would a horizontal track at the top edge of the window be acceptable? Essentially high lift track on one side? If this is OK, I've got an idea.

Before the inspector comes knocking... are those fire-rated windows?

We are good. Inspector has already ok'd.

How about extending your man cave out further?

With framing completed, windows installed and sheetrock being hung as we speak, the architecture of the house is what it is and won't change. So my options seem limited to changing the type of door for that bay to either bi-fold or roll-up unless I want to add some structural support that will block some of the view I'm after.

Any other ideas before I begin searching for a different door would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Ironcrow]

Would a horizontal track at the top edge of the window be acceptable? Essentially high lift track on one side? If this is OK, I've got an idea.

 

[kbs2244]

The hanger style door opening height is determined by where the hinges are.
If you put them above the opening you can open to the whole opening height.

 

[bjcouche]

Let me see if I get this right, the door tracks are about 8' off the floor. The ceiling height about 8' into the garage where the door track will be hung from would be 21-8=13' long. I see a challenge, but not a huge problem. Maybe you just need someone who is skilled at hanging commercial doors instead of consumer grade doors? You'd need a piece of angle iron 13' long vertically, or 2 pieces bolted together. There would be issues with an angle brace to keep the vertical load bearing angle from swaying horizontally. Any angle brace would be real long... So, instead of using an angle brace, I'd simply bolt a horizontal angle iron near the bottom of the vertical angle iron, on one end and the other end would travel horizontally the couple feet to your man cave. The vertical piece would hold the door weight, and the horizontal piece bolted to your man cave would keep it stable.

Brian

 

[bbs993tt]

Would a horizontal track at the top edge of the window be acceptable? Essentially high lift track on one side? If this is OK, I've got an idea.

I get what you're saying but would still prefer there to be no interference. In addition to the cars I will have artwork, memorabilia and other stuff on the walls. I am all ears though if you still want to share your idea. Thanks.

The hanger style door opening height is determined by where the hinges are.
If you put them above the opening you can open to the whole opening height.

Thank you. Glad to know this.

Let me see if I get this right, the door tracks are about 8' off the floor. The ceiling height about 8' into the garage where the door track will be hung from would be 21-8=13' long. I see a challenge, but not a huge problem. Maybe you just need someone who is skilled at hanging commercial doors instead of consumer grade doors? You'd need a piece of angle iron 13' long vertically, or 2 pieces bolted together. There would be issues with an angle brace to keep the vertical load bearing angle from swaying horizontally. Any angle brace would be real long... So, instead of using an angle brace, I'd simply bolt a horizontal angle iron near the bottom of the vertical angle iron, on one end and the other end would travel horizontally the couple feet to your man cave. The vertical piece would hold the door weight, and the horizontal piece bolted to your man cave would keep it stable.

Brian

I think I follow your idea and sounds like it would work. Will probably pursue a bi-fold door first for reasons mentioned above. Thanks!

 

[btdobie]

Lots of great ideas in this thread, but I'm going to try going a different direction. Maybe you'll like it.
Step 1: Remove windows
Step 2: Insert sliding glass door
Step 3: Add a balcony off the man cave
Door attaches to bottom of balcony.

 

[ky-mike]

Roll-up doors?

 

[btdobie]

Oh! I just got another idea. If you go with the add a joist method that someone else suggested, you could mount some lights on it to better illuminate your wall decorations. It might make the extra joist seem less out of place.

 

[cut twice measure once]

I agree with Bjcouche; single support from ceiling and a single 4' lateral brace from the man cave. Simple, cheap and does not block your view. A piece of steel tubing from the ceiling could be painted to match the walls and would not look ugly.

 

[bbs993tt]

Lots of great ideas in this thread, but I'm going to try going a different direction. Maybe you'll like it.
Step 1: Remove windows
Step 2: Insert sliding glass door
Step 3: Add a balcony off the man cave
Door attaches to bottom of balcony.

Again, good idea but too late to do that. Thanks.

Roll-up doors?

This is the first thing I thought of and may still go there. I like the bi-fold doors better but will keep rollup as an option. Thanks.

Oh! I just got another idea. If you go with the add a joist method that someone else suggested, you could mount some lights on it to better illuminate your wall decorations. It might make the extra joist seem less out of place.

Another good idea. Thanks.

I agree with Bjcouche; single support from ceiling and a single 4' lateral brace from the man cave. Simple, cheap and does not block your view. A piece of steel tubing from the ceiling could be painted to match the walls and would not look ugly.

Certainly this is the easiest solution. As small as it would be, I would just have to get comfortable with a support coming down from the ceiling. Thanks.

 

[Ironcrow]

Is this an automatic door or fully manual? Automatic may need some safety electric eye or similar to pass inspection? Options here may be limited by how much you want to fuss with rigging a safety where none is provided on some commercial doors.

If fully manual door, you have the option of a foldable rail on the window side, it could swing away out of sight when the door is closed.

 

[Garage Junkie]

If they can hang a suspension bridge off of cables, why cant you hang a garage door track? Perhaps out of nice cables and hardware that is artistic in itself.

 

[ishiboo]

If they can hang a suspension bridge off of cables, why cant you hang a garage door track? Perhaps out of nice cables and hardware that is artistic in itself.

A cable can carry the weight just fine. But you need something to prevent the track from splaying out away from the door, which could cause the rollers to pop out and the door to fall. So, something solid is the way to go.

 

[Garage Junkie]

A cable can carry the weight just fine. But you need something to prevent the track from splaying out away from the door, which could cause the rollers to pop out and the door to fall. So, something solid is the way to go.

Perhaps a cable or solid bar connecting the two track ends would solve that?

 

[lakeroadster]

This is truly a unique arrangement, one in which anything other than a roll up door, or hangar doors, will clutter up the space with bracketry hanging from the ceiling, as viewed from the second floor "observation deck".

Less is more... ideally you want no visual means of support .

 

[gnpenning]

Try wrapping the back hangs with something to make them blend in. For a log cabin you could use logs that would be splint and cut on the inside then put around the supports. You can wrap with a chain (or weld it solid), rope, metal sleeve, etc, whatever will fit your decor. You could use the cross support and make a shelve.

Make sure you go back to who ever designed it and missed this part ask for a partial refund. Maybe next time they will understand the requirements for overhead doors.

 

[Ironcrow]

A cable can carry the weight just fine. But you need something to prevent the track from splaying out away from the door, which could cause the rollers to pop out and the door to fall. So, something solid is the way to go.

You need to think outside the box. The common design it that the tracks are rigidly mounted and the rollers float. This allows the issue you describe. Nothing says you couldn't rigidly position the rollers (i.e. they do not float for width). The door width does not stretch. Then allow the track to drift, as hanging from a cable, to account for width tolerance etc.

 

[gnpenning]

You need to think outside the box. The common design it that the tracks are rigidly mounted and the rollers float. This allows the issue you describe. Nothing says you couldn't rigidly position the rollers (i.e. they do not float for width). The door width does not stretch. Then allow the track to drift, as hanging from a cable, to account for width tolerance etc.

What????

 

[pmiranda]

He's saying that normally the rollers are on shafts that are free to slide in and out of the door hinge mountings, so if the track were to sway too much to the outside the roller might bind up or, worst-case, come out completely. But I think the previous suggestion was to have a horizontal piece of angle iron to keep the track from moving like that, which would avoid the whole issue.
Personally, I'd cantilever a big shelf that supports the track and gives you more storage, to the extent that what you put up there doesn't block your windows.

 

[Ironcrow]

Yes. But if the roller axles are fixed in the hinge pivots so they can't slide in and out, the door can't fall apart when it's open. The tail end of the track on that side could then be supported by a unobtrusive 3/16 steel cable, and nothing else (no horizontal brace) to the ceiling.

 

[Ironcrow]

Would a horizontal track at the top edge of the window be acceptable? Essentially high lift track on one side? If this is OK, I've got an idea.

I am all ears though if you still want to share your idea.

OK, you didn't sound like you wanted to break new trails. I'll try to describe this in discrete pieces:
1) We are using a normal 16 foot wide, 8 foot tall, 4 segment garage door. Each segment is 2 feet tall. Regular garage door.
2) On the short side everything is normal. Track runs up to and along low ceiling. Rollers run in track. Tension cable attached to bottom of door. Torsion springs at header. Double springs, full width of door; all normal.
3) Only change to low side is hinge rollers do not slide in hinges. Door constrained to fixed distance from low side track. Five rollers, bottom, top, each hinge.
4) High side track runs straight up the wall to roof, turns 90 degrees, and runs back horizontally roughly even with the top edge of window.
5) On this side, the garage door hinges do not have rollers. Just hinges.
6) The high side track is spaced slightly away from the door, an inch or two.
7) Now, we take 5 rollers, space them 2 feet apart with hinged stock or small tubing. We take this little 8 foot long, 5 wheel, caterpillar and put it in the high side door track above the closed door so it basically runs straight up the wall above the door.
8) Attach with a hinge the bottom of the caterpillar to the top of the door.
9) Attach a cable or thin strap of metal from the top roller of the caterpillar to the top of the door. Second wheel of the caterpillar to the next hinge down and so forth.
10) The tension cable on this high side also goes to the bottom of the door as usual.
11) When the door is opened, the low side looks/works as normal
12) On the high side the door pushes the caterpillar up the track and it rolls back to match the low side only 8 feet higher.
13) Each roller on the caterpillar is carrying an 8 feet cable, hanging down vertically, to each high side garage door hinge.

You'd have to fuss around to get the geometry right, rollers to run smoothly, and so forth, but that's the concept. Probably add a guide shoe/track to the high side door jamb, inside the track, to hold the door against the weather seal (as it will lack rollers in the track to hold it tight)

Use a shaft drive opener and electric eyes per normal.

 

[RVDan]

Screw the tracks

 

[Denwood]

This garage space is too nice to mess with rails. With roll up doors you'll never have an issue with interference with a hoist. I would build a slick cassette to house the rolls and call it a day. There are many options for roll up doors out there. I went that route to avoid hoist interference and am 100% happy with that decision.

 

[gnpenning]

OK, you didn't sound like you wanted to break new trails. I'll try to describe this in discrete pieces:
1) We are using a normal 16 foot wide, 8 foot tall, 4 segment garage door. Each segment is 2 feet tall. Regular garage door.
2) On the short side everything is normal. Track runs up to and along low ceiling. Rollers run in track. Tension cable attached to bottom of door. Torsion springs at header. Double springs, full width of door; all normal.
3) Only change to low side is hinge rollers do not slide in hinges. Door constrained to fixed distance from low side track. Five rollers, bottom, top, each hinge.
4) High side track runs straight up the wall to roof, turns 90 degrees, and runs back horizontally roughly even with the top edge of window.
5) On this side, the garage door hinges do not have rollers. Just hinges.
6) The high side track is spaced slightly away from the door, an inch or two.
7) Now, we take 5 rollers, space them 2 feet apart with hinged stock or small tubing. We take this little 8 foot long, 5 wheel, caterpillar and put it in the high side door track above the closed door so it basically runs straight up the wall above the door.
8) Attach with a hinge the bottom of the caterpillar to the top of the door.
9) Attach a cable or thin strap of metal from the top roller of the caterpillar to the top of the door. Second wheel of the caterpillar to the next hinge down and so forth.
10) The tension cable on this high side also goes to the bottom of the door as usual.
11) When the door is opened, the low side looks/works as normal
12) On the high side the door pushes the caterpillar up the track and it rolls back to match the low side only 8 feet higher.
13) Each roller on the caterpillar is carrying an 8 feet cable, hanging down vertically, to each high side garage door hinge.

You'd have to fuss around to get the geometry right, rollers to run smoothly, and so forth, but that's the concept. Probably add a guide shoe/track to the high side door jamb, inside the track, to hold the door against the weather seal (as it will lack rollers in the track to hold it tight)

Use a shaft drive opener and electric eyes per normal.

Okay. So how are you going to bring the top and rest of the door up tight to the W/S as it's turning the radius and being strong enough so someone or wind won't push it in? Whats the plan for keeping the same radius as the low side with numbered hinges and still being high enough to hold the top of the door tight?

What is your plan for the low side rollers to limit in and out movement?

Not that it matters much but most steel doors use 5 panels for 8' doors. 2-21" and 3-18".

 

[Ironcrow]

Okay. So how are you going to bring the top and rest of the door up tight to the W/S as it's turning the radius and being strong enough so someone or wind won't push it in? Whats the plan for keeping the same radius as the low side with numbered hinges and still being high enough to hold the top of the door tight?

Guide shoe on the inside edge of the door edge. Line it with delrin, put tapered blocks on the door panels to snug the door against the seal.

Match the radius track on both sides. Will want to get use a tight radius to get the track going straight at the top edge of the door on the low side. Same radius at the rafters on the high side.

What is your plan for the low side rollers to limit in and out movement?

I dunno, drill the roller axle and spring pin on either side of the hinge.

Not that it matters much but most steel doors use 5 panels for 8' doors. 2-21" and 3-18".

Yes, just match the caterpillar to door panels.

Comment: I'm not saying this idea is the best thing since sliced bread or anything. Just outlined a concept for something that would work and be interesting. It would take a little development and fabrication. I'd tackle it just for the challenge and novelty of it.

 

[gnpenning]

[

Comment: I'm not saying this idea is the best thing since sliced bread or anything. Just outlined a concept for something that would work and be interesting. It would take a little development and fabrication. I'd tackle it just for the challenge and novelty of it.[/QUOTE]


I see a more issue's that would need to be addressed, but at this point The OP has some idea that some major fab would need to be done and can decide if it's something he would be interested in doing. I don't want to mess with his thread anymore unless this is a direction he wants to look at further. Maybe you can go and give it a try for him.