replacement sewer lateral tips?

[Vintage Veloce]

Apparently the 100 year old sewer lateral runs right under where I intend to put the new garage!
The old 4" cast iron line is in poor shape and has bellies (places where the bottom of the pipe has sunk and/or rusted out) so stuff pools in the line. We have had to have it rotor routed twice in the past 6 months.
The line is 50' long and has just about 1.5 to 2% slope. Also of note, the lateral is about 3' deep at it's deepest point where it joins with the city's pipe. So, given the location of the main sewer and the house, the depth and slope of the lateral cannot be increased, sadly. But I have been informed 1.5% to 2% should be adequate with a 4" line.

So... we are going to replace the sewer lateral before we pour the foundation on top of it. And then we are never going to see that line again without jack hammering through the garage foundation. So I want to make sure the contractor does this right!
I intend to put a cleanout in the garage floor because the garage goes right up to the property line.

Any tips or suggestions?
What is the best kind of 4" pipe to use?
How do we bed the pipe so it doesn't sink or develop low spots (bellies)?
Recommendations for a good garage floor cleanout?
What should I watch out for?
Other tips?

Thanks!
C

 

[truckman5000]

Shc 40 pvc. A cleanout can be a end clean out. with a deck plate set in the concrete.
You can in bed the pipe in some concrete to help with the settling.

 

[59 wagon man]

backfill with sand and pack in well around pipe . look up flush deckplate cleanout .i would use pvc as suggested also

 

[AJO]

Bed the pipe with stone. There will be no settling even from vibration.

 

[larry4406]

You can also add straps and embed the straps into the foundation to ensure the pipe cannot settle.

Now is also the perfect time to add plumbing to your garage!

 

[188slo50]

4" will be plenty so no need to increase, and in my area we bed it in dirt being sure to compact it in 12" lifts normally. Being your going under a garage floor I'd say do 12" over it in 57 or 58 gravel then go to top with 21a or crush n run. This all based on if I was doing it in my area so west coast and earthquake areas may be way different.

 

[NUTTSGT]

I'd use schedule 40 like Truckman suggested. Locally, stone is used as there is a limestone quarry nearby.

If I was doing this myself, I'd probably be using Fernco fittings at the connections. Do what want you want but I have dumped some Quickrete over the Ferncos just to make sure it holds them in place while back filling.

 

[VintageVeloce]

4" will be plenty so no need to increase, and in my area we bed it in dirt being sure to compact it in 12" lifts normally. Being your going under a garage floor I'd say do 12" over it in 57 or 58 gravel then go to top with 21a or crush n run. This all based on if I was doing it in my area so west coast and earthquake areas may be way different.

Lots of terminology here that I don't understand! 12" lifts? And 12" over it, does that mean you'd cover the pipe with that much gravel? I'm guessing 57 and 58 are references to a gravel size...

Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk

 

[mires]

When you say contractor, you mean plumber, right?

 

[flat350]

Run it in sch. 40 PVC with glued couplings

1.5 to 2 % grade is fine on 4" pipe

A 12" lift means covering the pipe with 12" of material

Bed the bottom of the ditch with a 3/4" stone,what we call CA-7 in No. Il. and fill with the same,not a lot of additional compaction required with a 3/4" stone

If you want a clean out in the building these would be fine

http://www.siouxchief.com/products/drainage/commercial/cleanouts/finishline/sch--40-hub-connection

 

[SJR033]

State plumbing codes are different, but I can tell you that in Michigan, they require that drainage pipe under a building to be SCH40 pvc. 99% of homes built in my area use 4" sanitary lines out to the easement.
So 4" SCH40 is perfect.

As for the garage cleanout. There are many companies that make a c/o that you can concrete up to.
Sioux Chief that ^flat350 listed
Wade Drain http://www.wadedrains.com/product-index/cleanouts-access-covers/
Zurn http://www.zurn.com/Pages/CategoryHierarchy.aspx?NodeKey=322361

You can even use a standard pvc c/o, leave it just under the final floor grade and protect it with a monument box. (basically a small manhole casting)

No real recommendation, they all will work fine.

The only other thing I would want done, is an air test. The last thing I would want is to pour the concrete and then find out I had a leak.

 

[kbs2244]

This is one of those things it is better to hire out.
Find a licensed sewer contractor.
He will have the tools and experience to do it right.
(And if you are going to build over it, you need it done right.)

 

[flat350]

State plumbing codes are different, but I can tell you that in Michigan, they require that drainage pipe under a building to be SCH40 pvc. 99% of homes built in my area use 4" sanitary lines out to the easement.
So 4" SCH40 is perfect.

As for the garage cleanout. There are many companies that make a c/o that you can concrete up to.
Sioux Chief that ^flat350 listed
Wade Drain http://www.wadedrains.com/product-index/cleanouts-access-covers/
Zurn http://www.zurn.com/Pages/CategoryHierarchy.aspx?NodeKey=322361

You can even use a standard pvc c/o, leave it just under the final floor grade and protect it with a monument box. (basically a small manhole casting)

No real recommendation, they all will work fine.

The only other thing I would want done, is an air test. The last thing I would want is to pour the concrete and then find out I had a leak.

DO NOT air test PVC waste and vent pipe,no manufacturer recommends it.If you feel you need to test it plug the downstream end with an expanding plug and fill it with water,watch the level and see if it drops.

 

[firworks]

Is 4" common for the sewer line out to the city in most areas? Mine is 6" out to the street. Just means there's more time between root clearouts...

 

[rlitman]

Is 4" common for the sewer line out to the city in most areas? Mine is 6" out to the street. Just means there's more time between root clearouts...

Roots only get into pipes if water can leak out. You won't be doing root cleanouts on properly glued PVC.

In any case, a root blade can do serious damage to a cellular core PVC, so be sure you use solid PVC pipe (that's not what they carry at the box stores FYI).

 

[firworks]

Roots only get into pipes if water can leak out. You won't be doing root cleanouts on properly glued PVC.

In any case, a root blade can do serious damage to a cellular core PVC, so be sure you use solid PVC pipe (that's not what they carry at the box stores FYI).

Yeah mine is... ceramic? Clay? Or whatever they use to use "back in the day". There's two joints were the roots always get in. The previous owners of my home had some of the line replaced with PVC and installed a cleanout cap. That segment is fine but a little past it is where the roots get in.

 

[188slo50]

Lots of terminology here that I don't understand! 12" lifts? And 12" over it, does that mean you'd cover the pipe with that much gravel? I'm guessing 57 and 58 are references to a gravel size...

Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk

Yes, 12" lift means put your material in that thick than compact it with what ever you choose than add another 12" and repeat. Yes, 57 and 58 is the stone size and most quarry's will carry one of the 2 or something equal to it. Sorry for the unclear terminology.

 

[ADSR]

Bed the pipe with stone. There will be no settling even from vibration.

You're kidding, right?

 

[Vintage Veloce]

In any case, a root blade can do serious damage to a cellular core PVC, so be sure you use solid PVC pipe (that's not what they carry at the box stores FYI).

That is a great tip. Thanks!

 

[Stuart in MN]

Is 4" common for the sewer line out to the city in most areas? Mine is 6" out to the street. Just means there's more time between root clearouts...

The correct size of the pipe needs to be determined, based on several things - the capacity required, the length of pipe, etc. If the pipe is too small it will be prone to clogging, if it's too big the flowrate may be too slow and solids will settle out in the pipe.

 

[SJR033]

DO NOT air test PVC waste and vent pipe,no manufacturer recommends it.If you feel you need to test it plug the downstream end with an expanding plug and fill it with water,watch the level and see if it drops.

"Low-pressure air testing is an acceptable method of insuring integrity of the installed sewer system. ASTM F1417 “Standard Test Method for Installation on Acceptance of Plastic Gravity Sewer Lines Using Low-Pressure Air” provides procedures for leakage testing of plastic sewer lines."

Quote taken from National Pipe & Plastics web site under their "Solid Wall PVC Sewer Pipe Installation Guide"

 

[readhead]

Confused. You say don't air test and then quote low pressure air testing. 24 hour air test is required by building department here. Filling with water would yield very bad results where it freezes.

 

[SJR033]

Confused. You say don't air test and then quote low pressure air testing. 24 hour air test is required by building department here.

I first said air test. flat said don't, it was not recommended. I was showing it is approved.

 

[readhead]

Sorry. I missed that.

 

[AJO]

You're kidding, right?

I do these kinds of repairs as part of our business. Most plumbers don't have a packer and if you don't compact the sand properly, vibration from compacting for the floor will make the pipe settle unevenly. Anytime there could be a problem created from above , unstable soil below or saturated soils, you bed it with stone. I have camera inspected sewer lines to find a belly in the line, cut and broke up concrete to find improper bedding materials or poor compaction to be at fault. This was even done in a 1 month old apartment building in the lower hallway.$$ Watch a sewer contractors site,he will have multiple loads of sand and a load of stone depending on the size of the job.It doesn't matter to me what somebody else does, I get paid to fix the problem. I hope this has answered your.

 

[flat350]

I first said air test. flat said don't, it was not recommended. I was showing it is approved.

It may be approved but i have seen first hand the results of a system failure at only 3 PSI,you don't want to be around it!

http://www.charlottepipe.com/Documents/TechBulletin/TechBulletinAirTesting.pdf

PVC W+V testing with water is the safe way and can be done at any temp,after the test is dropped the only area's that need to be addressed are the traps if they were installed with a small amount of RV anti freeze.It takes longer than you think for a 1 1/2"-4" slug of water to freeze solid even at 10 deg. F.If you feel you need more pressure on the test do a hydro-static test with a small hand pump.

I've been doing this work for 40 years and have tested thousands of below grade and above grade systems,there was a plumber killed in Chicago last year testing 5" galv. pipe with air,so do it how you want to do it just my opinion.

 

[flat350]

I do these kinds of repairs as part of our business. Most plumbers don't have a packer and if you don't compact the sand properly, vibration from compacting for the floor will make the pipe settle unevenly. Anytime there could be a problem created from above , unstable soil below or saturated soils, you bed it with stone. I have camera inspected sewer lines to find a belly in the line, cut and broke up concrete to find improper bedding materials or poor compaction to be at fault. This was even done in a 1 month old apartment building in the lower hallway.$$ Watch a sewer contractors site,he will have multiple loads of sand and a load of stone depending on the size of the job.It doesn't matter to me what somebody else does, I get paid to fix the problem. I hope this has answered your.

This is correct,on bigger jobs they will actually have a tester on site to test the ditch before and after the pipe is installed for the required compaction.Last one i did if we used CA-6 stone he wanted it compacted in 8" lifts,if i used CA-7 he said we didn't even need to compact it.We had 1200' of trench from 8' deep to 2' deep,used a lot of CA-7.

 

[Chaznsc]

Is 4" common for the sewer line out to the city in most areas? Mine is 6" out to the street. Just means there's more time between root clearouts...

A 6" has a greater flow capability under flat conditions. Still, whatever you are tapped with is what I would use.

 

[flat350]

A 6" has a greater flow capability under flat conditions. Still, whatever you are tapped with is what I would use.

Illinois code allows 180 drainage fixture units on a 4" line at 1/8" PF pitch,the average bathroom is rated at 7 drainage fixture units.So what they're saying is that I could drain 25 bathrooms into that 4" line,is 4" big enough sure.

 

[AJO]

This is correct,on bigger jobs they will actually have a tester on site to test the ditch before and after the pipe is installed for the required compaction.Last one i did if we used CA-6 stone he wanted it compacted in 8" lifts,if i used CA-7 he said we didn't even need to compact it.We had 1200' of trench from 8' deep to 2' deep,used a lot of CA-7.

Would your CA-7 stone be close to a 1/2" irregular shape ( jagged ) stone?

 

[K'ledgeBldr]

Cali/San Diego uses the 2012 UPC (Uniform Plumbing Code). It's somewhat similar to the IPC (International Plumbing Code) but there are some major differences in some petty areas- an argument for plumbers.

So, you'll find all the hard information here:
https://archive.org/details/2012UPC
Starting @Page 134/Chapter 7

There could be local amendments for your specific locale (city of San Diego or...) that you'll have to find on your own.

 

[flat350]

Would your CA-7 stone be close to a 1/2" irregular shape ( jagged ) stone?

CA-7 is close to 3/4" with no fine products,usually a crushed limestone product

CA-6 is 3/4" with fine product mixed in

 

[ADSR]

I do these kinds of repairs as part of our business. Most plumbers don't have a packer and if you don't compact the sand properly, vibration from compacting for the floor will make the pipe settle unevenly. Anytime there could be a problem created from above , unstable soil below or saturated soils, you bed it with stone. I have camera inspected sewer lines to find a belly in the line, cut and broke up concrete to find improper bedding materials or poor compaction to be at fault. This was even done in a 1 month old apartment building in the lower hallway.$$ Watch a sewer contractors site,he will have multiple loads of sand and a load of stone depending on the size of the job.It doesn't matter to me what somebody else does, I get paid to fix the problem. I hope this has answered your.

Nope. That's just mickey duck right there. You bed tight pipe here with anything other than sand, You won't be coming back to the job site. It's code here. It has to be compacted in 4-6" lifts. You can't even use drain rock on perf without filter cloth first. And I agree that's the way to go.

 

[Vintage Veloce]

Interesting stuff guys. Thanks!