Having a 12 X 16 Shed Built

[Vette10R]

Hey guys my garage is to full right now and I do not have a shed. A shed would make a world of difference for me but I just don't have the time to build one right now. There is a local guy who has been building sheds for 30 years and has built over 200 houses according to his website. His prices seem reasonable and he does all the work himself so I'm thinking he takes pride in his work.

I have been talking with his wife (I'm assuming) about scheduling and options/price etc... and I'm about to close the deal with them. I still haven't spoke with the man himself but according to his wife he builds them onsite and just sets them on the ground. No foundation prep or anything he prefers setting them on undisturbed ground.

Does this sound right to you guys? For some reason I do not like the sound of that, I would much rather get a foundation for it or some concrete blocks to have him build off of. Everything sounds great with him besides this, looking at his photos on his website it looks like some appear to be on wood timbers, maybe one on a concrete pad and others possibly on concrete blocks?

What would you guys think about this? What could I do before he comes out to build the shed if he doesn't do any foundation work?

 

[engineer2]

Depends on the stability of your soil. I can see his point though.

Part of my deck was 4x4 sleepers on the ground and it was fine for 20 years, but obviously not heavy like a shed. The other part of my deck was 4x4 posts 4 ft into the ground with Sonotube and concrete and they frost heaved about 2 inches in 20 years while some against the house backfill settled a few inches.

The shed method I've commonly read about is pads of 3 inches gravel for 12x12x3 concrete blocks in logical places and then your base framing.

I'm planning a shed too, so I'm interested in hearing opinions.

 

[Vette10R]

My house and neighborhood has been here since 1959 but I live in Minnesota so we get the freeze and thaw every year. He has been in this state the entire time as well building so I would assume he knows what's best. He does warranty his work but for only 2 years. I suppose if it makes it though 2 freezes and thaws with no issues it should be ok?

 

[engineer2]

By us anything with a foundation is a permanent structure and taxed more.
Sitting on the ground is a "temporary" structure and may be taxed a little less.

BTW, my deck cost $1200 to build 20 years ago and I figure I've paid $1200 in property taxes on it.

 

[BD1]

Neighbor had a metal shed put up for hay storage, 20' X 24' . This is in Northern Illinois, the building just sits on the ground. They have 6'' X 6'' timbers for the base and that is it. They only leveled off the site and laid the lumber right on top. Then used lumber and metal siding like a metal pole barn. He's had three more done the same way and no issues. This was new to me, never saw that done before.

 

[RustyGoat]

I know around here most places that make and sell sheds do it that way. Some of the reasons they do it that way are that there's no permit needed since there's no foundation, ease of building since they can build it at their shop and just load it on a truck, and time saving since they don't have to travel. That's also why you generally don't see sheds more than 12' wide so they can still haul it down the road.

 

[Kevin54]

Myself, I wouldn't want anything built right on top of the ground. I have had my 12x16 shed moved three times and each and every time, it was set on a bed of crushed limestone. The limestone will absorb any frost that may occur. I have never had a problem with our shed racking due to frost heave. Make sure you have some gravel underneath your shed when it is built.

 

[Todd.Brock]

I agree with Kevin. I built my shed on 4x4 skids. I had it moved to my new house and cleared an area, put some 4x4sdown and then what's called crusher run. It's called a bunch of different things, it might even be limestone/ wet it and compact it and it's hard as damn concrete. At a minimum my thought would be gravel so it's not sitting directly in water saturated dirt

 

[QwikKotaTx]

I just built mine on bricks as pads. Wish I had used concrete blocks but had lots of bricks to use up. Putting them right on the ground is not good for wood rot.

 

[Vette10R]

Myself, I wouldn't want anything built right on top of the ground. I have had my 12x16 shed moved three times and each and every time, it was set on a bed of crushed limestone. The limestone will absorb any frost that may occur. I have never had a problem with our shed racking due to frost heave. Make sure you have some gravel underneath your shed when it is built.

So do you dig down the 12x16 base like 3 inches then fill with limestone and set shed on that?

 

[jd_1138]

I'd never have a shed just placed on the bare ground. I'd want at least rocks like Kevin wrote about above at the bare minimum or preferably some concrete piers. They're pretty cheap and won't add much to the cost.

We inherited a shed when we bought this house and it's on the ground, and the wood is rotting away towards the bottom. Even PT wood will eventually rot away.

It's simply more convenient for the builder to tell people it's OK to slap it straight onto the ground. He probably isn't even charging less for doing it that way. It's just a tiny bit easier for him to put it on the ground, and most people don't know any better to question him.

 

[bczygan]

No!

Temporary shed? Permanent? Will it add to property taxes?

Concrete slab? Foundations required?

What is it going to be used for?

Electrical? Lighting?

Setbacks for zoning compliance?

Permits required?

Will this be the only detached accessory building? If not, are you allowed more than one?

Anyone that would recommend that....I would question EVERYTHING about him and his work. I would go MUCH further in investigating him and if I did contract with him, would be very careful in my contract language, and keep almost all the money in my pocket until the job was finished.

Also, since you need to ask this question, it means you lack the knowledge to properly evaluate this guy, or others. Find a qualified contractor, and pump them for information on what makes a good shed job, in ALL the particulars. Educate yourself completely.

Then you can go into this as a sophisticated buyer. This will help you avoid costly mistakes and disappointments.

Bill

 

[Radix2]

I would guess it is about building codes and permits - he doesn't want to mess with them and wants to stay under the rule for temporary buildings.

If that is the type you want, go for it, but I would certainly think about a pad or at least a gravel base to keep it high and dry for a long life - he shouldn't have a problem with that - although he may not have the tools or help to build the pad himself.

 

[Vette10R]

No!

Temporary shed? Permanent? Will it add to property taxes?

Concrete slab? Foundations required?

What is it going to be used for?

Electrical? Lighting?

Setbacks for zoning compliance?

Permits required?

Will this be the only detached accessory building? If not, are you allowed more than one?

Bill

I suppose it would be temporary since it's not fixed to a foundation although o have no intention of moving it when I sell the house...

No slab and apparently he doesn't do foundations...

It will be used to store riding mower with plow, snowblower, push mower, weed whip, leaf blower, shovels rakes etc. and general storage...

No plans for electrical or lighting...

I will need to pull a $30 zoning permit but that is all...

It will be the only detached building. ..

 

[bczygan]

I suppose it would be temporary since it's not fixed to a foundation although o have no intention of moving it when I sell the house...

No slab and apparently he doesn't do foundations...

It will be used to store riding mower with plow, snowblower, push mower, weed whip, leaf blower, shovels rakes etc. and general storage...

No plans for electrical or lighting...

I will need to pull a $30 zoning permit but that is all...

It will be the only detached building. ..

Riding mower with plow? I would seriously consider a slab. Or you will need a big ramp because of the depth of the floor framing. I don't like wood within 8" of grade.

I like all organic material (Grass and topsoil) excavated down to firm earth, a well compacted pad of sharp (Not round) gravel (Like limestone) with fines, to about 2" above highest grade. Then 4" of concrete with at least woven wire mesh in it and a thickened edge. #4 bar in the thickened edge is a good idea. Code may require a rat wall or better. Check this. Even without a permit, you have to build to code. Do you know all your zoning restrictions and height and area and setback requirements?

Have you considered the roof pitch and style options? You can gain volume with a Gambrel roof or steeper pitch. What height is allowed? What overhangs will it have? You can gain some outside covered storage with a shed roof and 2 or 3 posts off one side.

Is the site perfectly flat?

If you do go with a wood floor frame, I have 2 alternate methods to avoid excessive height and keeping it from rtoo much ground contact.

I would not limit myself to what this guy is prepared to do. Could you post some photos of his work?

Bill

 

[jd_1138]

Check with the local building dept., but usually you don't need a building permit/inspection for sheds that are modest in size. Still need the zoning permit though in your area, I guess.

I built a shed at my mom's new house, and no permits were needed as long as the shed is under 200 square feet. And it said nothing about the foundation, so I just built it on some pier blocks.

I priced out a concrete pad, and I think it was going to be $400 to have a guy come in and pour a slab for it. But I elected to just do the piers.

I'd check with your city's building dept. and see what the shed rules are.

 

[Vette10R]

Riding mower with plow? I would seriously consider a slab. Or you will need a big ramp because of the depth of the floor framing. I don't like wood within 8" of grade.

I like all organic material (Grass and topsoil) excavated down to firm earth, a well compacted pad of sharp (Not round) gravel (Like limestone) with fines, to about 2" above highest grade. Then 4" of concrete with at least woven wire mesh in it and a thickened edge. #4 bar in the thickened edge is a good idea. Code may require a rat wall or better. Check this. Even without a permit, you have to build to code. Do you know all your zoning restrictions and height and area and setback requirements?

Have you considered the roof pitch and style options? You can gain volume with a Gambrel roof or steeper pitch. What height is allowed? What overhangs will it have? You can gain some outside covered storage with a shed roof and 2 or 3 posts off one side.

Is the site perfectly flat?

If you do go with a wood floor frame, I have 2 alternate methods to avoid excessive height and keeping it from rtoo much ground contact.

I would not limit myself to what this guy is prepared to do. Could you post some photos of his work?

Bill

I was trying to stay away from.concrete if possible to keep costs down. But I will look into it and get a couple bids to see how much it will ad.

His floors are 2x6 12" on center with 1/2" treated plywood floor. The 16' wide sheds have 4 inground contact treated skids. ^^ This is from his website...

I am going with a barn style for the addition loft storage for household items like Christmas trees etc... I am allowed 12' of height which this specific shed will be at.

The site is very flat but is at the back corner of my yard, there is a slight slope from my house to the back edge but I have never seen water pooled back there in the 5 years I've been here even in the hardest downpours.

I don't want to limit myself to what he is prepared to do that is why I started this thread

 

[Vette10R]

Check with the local building dept., but usually you don't need a building permit/inspection for sheds that are modest in size. Still need the zoning permit though in your area, I guess.

I built a shed at my mom's new house, and no permits were needed as long as the shed is under 200 square feet. And it said nothing about the foundation, so I just built it on some pier blocks.

I priced out a concrete pad, and I think it was going to be $400 to have a guy come in and pour a slab for it. But I elected to just do the piers.

I'd check with your city's building dept. and see what the shed rules are.

I have spoke with the city building department and they do not require building permits under 200 square feet so the 12x16 should be perfect but they do require a $30 zoning permit even if you build a doghouse lol.

What size was your concrete pad estimate for $400?

 

[bczygan]

The first method for support of a wood foundation has already been mentioned.

I don't like his method of building a floor frame and putting it on skids, as it makes the finish floor level higher than it needs to be. I would rather eliminate the skids and make the three main beams of the floor frame, whether they are supported by piers, or set on the pad itself, the skids, so called. Especially since this will never move. Then the joists hang off the side of these beams, eliminating the extra height.

And I don't like his 1/2" floor sheathing, even with 12" joist spacing.

It is a compacted pad, fairly impervious to water, and built up slightly above the highest point of surrounding grade. Quite a bit of back breaking site prep. Easier with machines.

Another method is to use those precast concrete pier blocks. Then you only need dig down to firm earth under each block, and provide a compacted pad under each block, not under the entire shed. In this method, the pier(s) located at the area of highest grade should just protrude above grade a few inches. All the others should be leveled to this one or ones. If there is a lot of slope, some of them may be completely above grade on their pads.

For either method, and for a slab, the excavation of all topsoil and the compaction of the pad, whether under the whole shed or just under the piers, is all important.

Then here is how to design the most economical floor frame for this structure, and one that is the lowest profile, to minimize the height of ramp required. It will balance the height required with the number of piers needed.

Run 3 rows of piers in the 16' direction. Each row will have 3 piers for a total of 9 piers. Each row will have 2 2x8x8's for beams.

Between these beams, install 2 rows of 2x6x6 joists (16"o.c. will do, but 12 is even better), hung from the beams with joist hangers. Make the joists on each end (4 total) 2x8x6's.

Then use 3/4" T&G plywood, screwed and glued and laid perpendicular to the joists, for the deck. Provide blocking under seams or joints.

All the floor framing and plywood floor deck sheathing should be treated.

Price out the cost of a slab and also for wood framing for comparison. Don't forget to include earthwork and pad and pier work in the numbers.

Bill

 

[engineer2]

1/2" treated plywood floor.

No Way! Go with 3/4" !
Any thoughts on marine plywood flooring vs treated?

 

[bczygan]

Couple more things.

Looked at the guys website.

His trim on the gable ends looks skimpy. It may just be his style. But I couldn't see if he used drip edge.

On a Gambrel, or barn style roof like you want, I like to see ice and water shield on the upper, low slope portion. I also like 30# felt or the newer alternatives.

Does he use double top plates?

What is his stud spacing?

Does he frame closed corners?

Get the biggest door you can. You will thank yourself later.

If the area is secure, think about a window for light, especially without electrical lighting.

Window can be up high, in the gable end of the loft area.

Not real clear the sizing of his floor joists.

Where is your 12' of height measured from and to. Read the actual zoning regs. It may be to midpoint of roof. It may also be measured from lowest adjacent grade.

Bill

 

[Vette10R]

Hey Bill do you want to fly out to MN and build me a shed! Haha

 

[bczygan]

Hey Bill do you want to fly out to MN and build me a shed! Haha

Ha!

I don't build as well as I design, but I do have 9 of my own.

Bill

 

[jd_1138]

I have spoke with the city building department and they do not require building permits under 200 square feet so the 12x16 should be perfect but they do require a $30 zoning permit even if you build a doghouse lol.

What size was your concrete pad estimate for $400?

10x12.......It may have been $500, can't remember. That was 2 years ago in California.

The concrete guy was working at the neighbor's house (my mom's neighbor), and I hired him to come over and pour a nice paved walkway in front of my mom's house because she was tired of walking 15 feet or so through grass/mud from the gate to the front door. He charged $350 for that. And he saw I was about to build a shed and he offered to pour a pad.

Your shed is bigger, so it might be $1,000 or so? With materials, labor, etc.. Concrete piers would be a lot cheaper.

 

[wasfuzz]

Were in MN, north south. I am in southern MN and we just put up a new shed at the Gun Range. Purchased concrete hog slats (think concrete slab with slots in it) poured a little gravel, had the slat set and then filled slots with more gravel. I think it cost about 300 bucks for a 12 x 14 slat setup. Lumber yard built shed off site and delivered and set on slats. Under $2000 dollars for everything, 2x6 construction with sheathing instead of purlins and metal siding and roofing. 6x6 18" on center underneath for skids.

 

[James-W]

At the very least I would put the shed on concrete blocks of some sort. A concrete pad would be nicer, but the idea is to get it off the ground and however you do that would be an improvement over setting it on the ground.

 

[jd_1138]

I am going with a barn style for the addition loft storage for household items like Christmas trees etc... I am allowed 12' of height which this specific shed will be at.

After I built the shed at my mother's house, I went to town on building a bunch of shelving inside of it. I had some leftover T1-11 panels, and I used it to build some pretty large loft shelves in the back of the shed. I just framed it out in 2x4's and cut the T1-11 and other materials (plywood) to fit it.

Then I built shelving along the sides, and I also built work benches along the sides too, and even shelves under the workbenches. Shelf city. I even installed a little vise onto the workbench. The workbenches can be used as shelving or to work on. And I put pegboard on the back of the shed door and hung some basic tools up there.

Without shelving, all your stuff is piled on the floor and there's no room, but with adequate shelving, all the stuff gets swallowed up leaving room to walk around inside.

 

[Redwolf947]

I dug and leveled a pad and put down treated 4x6's as a border for my 12x16 shed. My shed guy brought in a truck load of gravel leveled and compacted it then brought out the shed on a truck.
View media item 50720

 

[readhead]

I sell prebuilt sheds and we generally suggest a level gravel bed around 6" deep. Most of the time when the driver arrives nothing has been done. He drops it, positions it, levels it with pt blocks and has the owner sign off.

Our sheds use ground contact PT skids and joists and 5/8" t&g floor sheeting. The company tried pt plywood for the floor but the quality and appearance of the material led to to many complaints so they went back to the regular t&g.

We have stamped plans avaliable for our sheds if a customer needs to go to the building department. Lets maintain some perspective. It is a shed. Some people will want to build it to the same level as their house (Bill) and some people just want to get stuff out of the weather. Sure there are ways to improve on the final product but just sitting it on the ground will also get the job done. The sky will not fall but if it does your stuff will be protected.

Keep in mind that there may not be a big budget involved with the purchase of a shed. Probably half of our sales are rent to own. There's no money for anything else.

 

[Todd.Brock]

Bill brings up a number of good points - I learned the hardway about height. I saw this shed at the home show and really wanted it.
http://www.weaverbarns.com/portofolio/craftsman-shed/

I ended up building a version that was similar style. I visited the dealer, took a few rough measurements and got to building. Weaver uses 2x6 maybe 2x8 PT tongue and groove that is set in skids. This makes a low point of entry. Mine. Is 4x4, with 2x6 and 3/4 tongue and groove plywood. I made my doors too long and so I can't have a ramp that goes up to the floor. I have to open the doors then lay ramps b/c the doors cover up part of where the ramp would go. Lessons learned about building it on the fly.

I had it moved to parents house when we sold and then moved you new house last summer. So it was helpful to have it overbuilt.




Here are a couple pics of the foundation at the new house from this past fall

I had to cut into the slope on the left side

 

[Vette10R]

Lots of great info here guys I really appreciate it! And thanks for the pictures they really help.

I have some new ideas rolling around in my head and I'm going to make some phone calls today for some bids. I just don't want a POS shed in my yard that's twisting every year with the freeze and thaw etc...

 

[doubleot]

I've hired a local shed builder and scheduled my custom shed to be built on site. I had the same questions searched for about a year and there is 3 company's in Utah that essentially do the same thing. One of them is Tuff shed, they were by far the most expensive for essentially the same thing as the other two company's. The local I hired spends little to know money advertising and has made a name for his company through local adds and word of mouth. My ultimate decision to go with him started with my neighbor getting one of his sheds. My neighbor decided to build it himself so it was delivered as a kit to his custom likes. He poured concerte and put it up with his brother and a friend or two. Took him about 3 or 4 days. The shed is solid and it looks amazing. The second and biggest reason I liked about this company is the owner is the guy you talk to from start to finish. He took my order called me to finalize any details and he's the one who gets the plans to his employees to start the building process. He's very responsive as far as texting or calling and he doesn't beat around the bush.

To end the novel, I'm doing my shed on Gravel about 4 inches deep all around and the size of my shed will be 10x 18 barn style.

 

[Vette10R]

Thanks doubleot, when do you plan on starting the ground work? Can you take pictures along the way and post them in this thread?

 

[D45]

No concrete pad here, no permit, no inspection

Just a 10x12 with a gambrel style roof, for added storage

Crushed limestone base

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=244568

 

[doubleot]

Thanks doubleot, when do you plan on starting the ground work? Can you take pictures along the way and post them in this thread?

Sorry didn't get the notification I had a friend's brother get the ground ready this is the final product. We've been busy and he has a good lawn care business so I gave him the work. It was decently simple from what I saw, about two and a half trailer loads of dirt came out of this area. He used this specific 1.5-2" rock that his supplier recommended for this type of application because it compacts very well.

 

[Vette10R]

Thanks for the pic doubleot looks good!

 

[Vette10R]

I was talking with my brothers roommate who does concrete with his dad. He said if I buy the material and help him he will do a slab for $20/hr. Sounds like a fair deal to me!

He's thinking just 2×4 frame and rebar throughout should be good enough for the shed foundation so that would make it 3.5" thick. Then I can have the shed guy build on that and be good to go!?

 

[doubleot]

That's a deal! I was quoted about 2k for a slab or closer to 1.5 if I did it myself. I opted for this since the shed builder adds a base/floor to the shed when needed for a small cost.