To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

Concrete Slab Questions

ms fowler

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Messages
450
Location
Littlestown, PA _ 6 miles south of Gettysburg
I was monitoring a loading dock slab pour, and I kept telling the crew no to forget to pull up the mesh, but they were using buggies to place the concrete, and worked it down into the subgrade. They studiously avoided pulling it up. I documented their work with photos, and later the Owner had my company take some random cores. In all cases the wire mesh was at the very bottom of the concrete, not in the middle third at all. This was one of those rare cases where the Owner actually cared, and forced the contractor to remove the slab and redo it, in accordance with the specs, at his own expense.
WWF or mesh is a good thing, if it is properly placed and pulled up into the wet concrete, but it does require constant oversight as it the contractors care only about getting it done , getting paid, and moving on. You are stuck with the long term results.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

brownbagg

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 20, 2006
Messages
5,208
With the more information you've given in your last post, here's my recommendations:



2) Definitely put in reinforcing. Mesh is as good as rebar, as long as you block it up in a positive fashion so that it is in the middle of the slab. .

3) DO NOT DOWEL INTO YOUR GARAGE SLAB. If you get a problem occurring in the slab outside, you don't want it to displace and/crack the slab inside.



5) Do not put a vapor barrier under the slab. Will not serve any useful purpose.

mesh is not as good as rebar because both item does different properties, mesh is for shrinkage cracking, after 24 hours it is of no use. rebar is for load factors, its does nothing until a load is applied to the structure. Although rebar is not needed for a drive way unless you have a semi parked out there. On a thin slab rebar will telegraph through the slab anyway

Dowels, the purpose of dowels is to keep the slab level in case one compaction settles, You grease one end of the dowel so it will slip. Correctly done, a dowel will never hurt an slab

Vapor barrier are required not for controlling moisture from entered the slab but it controlled the bleed water. If the excess moisture leaves the concrete too quick during set up. the concrete will crack due to the bottom is settling quicker than the top. Vapor barrier is cheap insurance
 

DCarr2

Banned
Joined
Dec 12, 2015
Messages
1,339
Location
Akron NY
Everything I have read, says to use a vapor barrier under new slabs...

with that said, I have personally witnessed my floor in my old shop sweat something aweful on some days over the summer.

now weather thats due to a lack of a moisture barrier or the 6' of stone under the floor, dont know..but everything I have read says to have a barrier...
 

wssix99

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 2, 2011
Messages
5,159
Location
Chicago, IL
Everything I have read, says to use a vapor barrier under new slabs...

with that said, I have personally witnessed my floor in my old shop sweat something aweful on some days over the summer.

now weather thats due to a lack of a moisture barrier or the 6' of stone under the floor, dont know..but everything I have read says to have a barrier...

If you read The American Concrete Institute's documentation or the Portland Cement Association's documentation on vapor barriers and slabs, they will tell you all about the places you shouldn't use a vapor barrier. (Outside slabs are one of those places.)

A lot of is have the floor sweat issue (vapor barrier or not) when warm, moist air hits a chilled slab. (This happens a lot in the spring.)
 

wssix99

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 2, 2011
Messages
5,159
Location
Chicago, IL
mesh is for shrinkage cracking, after 24 hours it is of no use.

This is incorrect. The ACI documentation has lots of correct information on how any type of reinforcing works to restrain shrinkage stresses for the life of the slab. I think you may be confusing mesh with fibers, here.


rebar is for load factors

Only in an industrial floor.


rebar is for load factors, its does nothing until a load is applied to the structure.

Taken as a whole, this statement is not correct. As it is being discussed here and with the quantities/spacing it is being discussed here, rebar acts just like wire mesh to control shrinkage stresses and cracking - it just works better than wire mesh because it will typically give a greater cross section of steel in the slab. The ACI documentation also has volumes on how this all works.


Vapor barrier are required not for controlling moisture from entered the slab but it controlled the bleed water. If the excess moisture leaves the concrete too quick during set up. the concrete will crack due to the bottom is settling quicker than the top. Vapor barrier is cheap insurance

If you read lakeroadster's thread on this, he has great links to documentation that show that the main concern is the vapor barrier trapping moisture under the slab, slowing the cure underneath, (relative to the top) and causing curling.
 
OP
M

Model A Fan

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 1, 2011
Messages
1,218
Location
NW Washington
Well, after reading all the different opinions and links and whatnot, I've decided to go with a compacted base of 5/8" crushed gravel with fines at a depth of about 4"-6" and a 4" slab with rebar perimeter and mesh in the middle area.

A 4" slab is quite a bit less in material and cost, and given that it is not seeing heavy use (traffic and weight-wise), it should suffice.

Concrete in my area is $104/yard after tax and one truck full of gravel would be about $350. Given the amount I'll be using, one truck full of gravel will be more than I need. 1 truck covers an area of 6" deep, 22' wide and 25' long. Going with 4" deep will be less rock.

Reason for going with less rock is my friend said that given the ground under my driveway is compacted already, it would be unnecessary to compact it further, and therefore I didn't need as much gravel.
 

matt_i

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
10,726
Location
SE Michigan
Just want to add to make sure you think about your stormwater management and get enough pitch so the water will go where you want it to go. Not sure if you have flat or hills, I have flat, but my asphalt driveway has a small part pitched back towards the garage, that I intend to fix someday, hopefully sooner.
 
OP
M

Model A Fan

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 1, 2011
Messages
1,218
Location
NW Washington
So I'm going to pour on Saturday the 7th. I'm going 4" thick with air entrained. 1" of slope for every 8' of length. 25' length so about 3.25" of slope from garage floor to end of the pad. Going to put the wire mesh in, Home Depot has panels that I'm opting for instead of the roll of fence-like material. It will cost about $30 more for the panels over the wire roll. Should I do any rebar around the perimeter or skip? I had it excavated yesterday and used a laser level for getting the proper slope. It is about 1/2" deep, so I'm going to compact and add more of the original material. It is very compacted gravel underneath, all the way down.

I should add, it will be approximately 5.6 yards of concrete. How much over the expected amount should I order to ensure I have plenty and no shortage?

Any final words of wisdom?
 
Last edited:

HRJoe

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 31, 2016
Messages
95
Location
Georgetown, Ky
With the more information you've given in your last post, here's my recommendations:

1) Excavate at least 12", and put in at least 6 inches of heavily compacted, well graded crushed rock aggregate (gravel). Since you have freeze/thaw issues, it is even more important to have a good base. 2 inches of used/contaminated rock is definitely not enough to do what you need. I would consider going to more rock and less concrete. 4 to 5 inches of concrete is fine, as long as you don't make it 3 1/2 inches to use a 2x4 form. Use a 2x4, but prepare it so you get a minimum of 4 inches. Or, there's nothing wrong with your plan of 6 inch concrete, but you need a minimum of 6 inches of compacted rock under it.

2) Definitely put in reinforcing. Mesh is as good as rebar, as long as you block it up in a positive fashion so that it is in the middle of the slab. Buy a bunch of concrete block, and break them up with a hammer into pieces that you use to wedge up the mesh. DO NOT RELY ON PULLING THE MESH UP AFTER THE CONCRETE IS PLACED. It doesn't work. #3 rebar is quite cheap, usually I use it 18" on center, and tie mesh onto it, and then block the whole thing up 2 inches to fall in the middle of the slab. The rebar and mesh does add some strength, but more importantly, when the concrete cracks (and it will), the reinforcement holds it together so it doesn't displace.

3) DO NOT DOWEL INTO YOUR GARAGE SLAB. If you get a problem occurring in the slab outside, you don't want it to displace and/crack the slab inside. You'd much rather have the slab outside move independently, and hopefully return, than move, break the garage slab up, and then have both of them screwed up and hooked together.

4) Definitely saw cut the joints if you can instead of tooling the joints. If your contractor friend has a correct joint scoring tool, you can use it. But, that works a lot better for sidewalks than it does for slabs. Using a trowel and edger can work, but not well at all. Hard to score deep enough to be effective in making it crack where you want it to, particularly if you have rebar.

5) Do not put a vapor barrier under the slab. Will not serve any useful purpose.

6) Do not rely on a large flat plate compactor to compact your gravel. Wet it thoroughly and use wacker packer/jumping jack type compactor to thoroughly get the gravel compacted.

7) Use air entrained concrete. Specify 5 to 6.5% air entrainment. The concrete company knows how to do that. That will help keep the concrete from spalling after water gets onto the concrete an it freezes. Essentially, the air entrainment leaves some void space that water can expand into when it freezes, so it doesn't break the concrete.

8) Work the surface a minimum to get it smooth enough to finish. I'd finish it with a smooth broom finish, going in the direction of the water flow/slope. If you overfinish the concrete, working up a "cream" and repeatedly troweling that, you create a layer that water gets under, and when it freezes, it spalls off the surface. Overworking also removes the air entrainment, and that increases the spalling potential. For slabs and roads, the minimum you can work the surface and still finish it is the best and most durable surface.

9) Slope the concrete a minimum of 1/8" per foot for a hard troweled, flat finish. 1/4" per foot is preferred if you use a broom finish. Less than that and water will pond on the surface. I'd recommend a broom finish instead of a hard troweled finish, as it will be more durable and less susceptible to spalling in freeze/thaw cycling. Hard troweled will be easier to roll over with a creeper, and will be easier on your knees if you kneel on the slabe. Both have their benefits and detriments. Chose whichever works best for you.

Saving this for later reference. :bowdown:
 

pmiranda

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 15, 2008
Messages
1,504
Location
Austin, TX
Are you using any chairs or anything to space the mesh up from the bottom, or planning on pulling it up during the pour and hope for the best?
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

Leaflessshadetree

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 1, 2013
Messages
7,152
Location
Don't ask.
So I'm going to pour on Saturday the 7th. I'm going 4" thick with air entrained. 1" of slope for every 8' of length. 25' length so about 3.25" of slope from garage floor to end of the pad. Going to put the wire mesh in, Home Depot has panels that I'm opting for instead of the roll of fence-like material. It will cost about $30 more for the panels over the wire roll. Should I do any rebar around the perimeter or skip? I had it excavated yesterday and used a laser level for getting the proper slope. It is about 1/2" deep, so I'm going to compact and add more of the original material. It is very compacted gravel underneath, all the way down.

I should add, it will be approximately 5.6 yards of concrete. How much over the expected amount should I order to ensure I have plenty and no shortage?

Any final words of wisdom?


Doesn't hurt to go a little thicker around the edges. I went 6" thick around the outer 12". I like to wet down the base the night before and again right before pouring concrete. Keeps the base from sucking the water out.
Oil the forms before you pour, it will make them easier to remove.
If you are going to saw cut the relief joints think about where the will go and tool them in any place where the saw won't reach the edge (like against a wall).
I usually order an extra 1/2 yd. Here anything under 6 yds is considered a short load so the price per yard goes up.
Have a place planned (and formed up) for extra concrete if you end up with some. At my BILs I formed up 2 sides of a pad outside of a rear entry door. We put in the third end to match the amount of concrete he had left. Worked out great.
 

Peter Mc Mahon

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 20, 2014
Messages
62
Right or wrong, I used 2"thick concrete landscaping pavers cracked in half to support my wire mesh.
 
OP
M

Model A Fan

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 1, 2011
Messages
1,218
Location
NW Washington
I plan on just using some pieces of concrete or stone such that the mesh will sit on them and then there won't be a void. I will look into the dobies and see if I can find them. They look convenient with the little wires sticking out. I've never heard of them, do you know if other stores carry them?

I have an idea to put a small pad in for my trash and yard waste bins to sit on, so that might be an option for the extra cement.

I don't plan on pulling the mesh and hoping for the best. I would rather spend the extra money and be sure than go cheap and cross my fingers. This is an investment in the betterment of my property, I don't want it dying on me early because I cheaped out.
 
OP
M

Model A Fan

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 1, 2011
Messages
1,218
Location
NW Washington
Right or wrong, I used 2"thick concrete landscaping pavers cracked in half to support my wire mesh.

Maybe I can buy some cheap bricks and break them up and wrap a wire around them and tie them to the mesh? I think that would work in a similar fashion and it would be half the price of the dobies, if I do two pieces per brick. Four pieces per brick is 25% the cost. :headscrat
 

wssix99

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 2, 2011
Messages
5,159
Location
Chicago, IL
Should I do any rebar around the perimeter or skip?

If you are going to drive off the edge of the slab on to your yard or if you are worried about the base material under the edges, it might be a good idea. If not, then I wouldn't sweat it.

I only have mesh in my slab and we had a dumpster delivery truck drive up to (and possibly over once) the edge and didn't have any issues one month after our pour. (We are also 4" like you are planning.)


Maybe I can buy some cheap bricks and break them up and wrap a wire around them and tie them to the mesh? I think that would work in a similar fashion and it would be half the price of the dobies, if I do two pieces per brick. Four pieces per brick is 25% the cost. :headscrat

If you want to be sure to get the mesh up, you'd be best to go get the proper chairs. Using cheap debris (bricks, rocks, etc.) may work and you may be OK, but you will also create a weak point in the slab that could encourage crack formation along those points. (The thinner the slab, and the larger the chunks, the more you are rolling the dice.)

There are times and places to be frugal but I don't think this is a good one. Saving a few dollars and risking the quality of a several thousand dollar job (that would cost you hundreds more to rip out if you were to try again) doesn't add up very well.
 
Last edited:

brownbagg

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 20, 2006
Messages
5,208
Maybe I can buy some cheap bricks and break them up and wrap a wire around them and tie them to the mesh?

not if they are red brick. red brick are clay and not waterproof so they will discengrate and leave a void. only concrete brick or broken cmu will work
 

brownbagg

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 20, 2006
Messages
5,208
This is incorrect. The ACI documentation has lots of correct information on how any type of reinforcing works to restrain shrinkage stresses for the life of the slab. I

I guess I need to turn in all my ACi certification for being a ******* and tell boss I can't work, because I'm too stupid to design slabs anymore. I wonder if the university want their degree back.
 

TractorJeff

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 8, 2013
Messages
3,309
Location
Elkhorn, WI
I've seen a LOT of driveways poured 4 inches since 1965 and the Majority of them that came on a concrete truck, not hand mixed in a mixer are still solid. Those guys didn't have the resources of the Internet to explain all this stuff.
I think you guys are WAY over thinking this!
 

matt_i

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
10,726
Location
SE Michigan
Cheap generally <> Good. Imo concrete is not the place to go Cheap due to the large investment.
 

wssix99

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 2, 2011
Messages
5,159
Location
Chicago, IL
I guess I need to turn in all my ACi certification for being a ******* and tell boss I can't work, because I'm too stupid to design slabs anymore. I wonder if the university want their degree back.

Well, if you can quote ACI guidelines (or explain "why" things are a certain way) instead of just posting empty comments in the thread, then that would probably make the comments a bit more credible. But I suppose we don't really need that because as long as it's on the internet, it must be true!
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
Top Bottom