Roof leak (or is it?)

[rt dak]

First off sorry for the short story here, I appreciate those who read the whole thing.

Not my garage but figured maybe someone could have some ideas. I moved into my grandparent's old house that my grandfather built in 1959 after my grandmother passed at the end of 2013. The bank inspector comes out and says I need a new roof before they give me the mortgage. I'm not really pleased but it was old, tired looking, streaky, etc. and the estate was paying for it anyway so I figured what the hell, free roof.

A friend of my fathers puts the new roof on in April 2014. After Christmas of that year I see the paint on the drywall where it meets the fireplace mantle bubbled in a small spot. My wife had some lighted garland draped over the mantle, I figured maybe one of the bulbs was touching and got a little hot. It gets progressively worse, spreading from left side of the mantle to the middle. Thats when I notice a little moisture on the back edge of the mantle. Cut to present day where the drywall is bubbled across the whole length of the mantle and water is leaching through the brick on the fireplace.

When the roof was done, he left the original flashing around the chimney. It was everyone's thought that this was the problem. I had a mason out to double check and make sure it wasn't coming thru the chimney itself and he said he didn't think so, chimney looked solid save for a view voids in the mortar (original block chimney). Two masons said definitely looked like a flashing issue. The sheathing in the attic behind the chimney is wet. Since I was planning on it in the future anyway I had the whole chimney brick veneered, new caps and new flashing in March of this year. Still leaks. Underside of the roof in the attic feels damp to me.

I get a trusted contractor over and says the ridge vent doesn't look correct. The house never had a ridge vent, I had one installed with the new roof. He says things are layered incorrectly and the nails are already rusting. He repairs it on that side of the house. Still leaks. He covers the vent with rubber sheeting just to see what happens. Still leaks. He puts plastic sheeting on the front side of the roof on that side of the house. Still leaks.

Here's where we're stumped. This past week on multiple occasions he soaks everything with a hose for at least 30 mins. The roof, the whole chimney, directly at the caps, the side of the house that the chimney is on, every angle imaginable and we can't replicate the leak. Then it drizzles rain for 15 mins and it leaks.

Before I just give up and rip off this whole 2 year old roof does anyone have any ideas at all? I've been coming to this house every holiday and almost every weekend my whole life and have never seen the fireplace like this, so I know it's not an old issue. It's the simplest house construction you can get, simple roof, no weird angles or anything. Just a rectangle with a 2 sided roof.

 

[CNGsaves]

Post up bunch of PIC's of the chimney and angles on roof.

Is there a cricket that directs water away from the chimney ??

 

[rt dak]

Just what I have on my phone for right now.

 

[LXCam]

Gezzis that flashing job is terrible.

As for your leak, its amazing how water can travel at times. I'd spend more time looking around the ridge for a entrance point. But back to my comment about the flashing, are you certain it's not the source of the leak? It only takes one place. Good luck.

 

[rt dak]

Just curious what you see wrong with the flashing? You can't even see it in the pics except for the front side of the chimney. As I said, everything soaked with the hose and no leaks. Drizzle for 15 mins that didn't even get the brick wet and it leaks

 

[pstnbly]

I would be looking at those bluestone slopes.

 

[p_mori7]

I would guess that it is wicking in via the masonery somewhere. Possibly the angled granite slabs on either side of the chimney.

Nice house !

 

[LXCam]

Just curious what you see wrong with the flashing? You can't even see it in the pics except for the front side of the chimney. As I said, everything soaked with the hose and no leaks. Drizzle for 15 mins that didn't even get the brick wet and it leaks

That's the one picture I'm talking about.

Then I'd go back to really investigate the ridge. Has anyone gone into the antic to look for staining?. If you can spot some fresh marks, that'll help you track it down. Oops, I guess that scratch that idea eh..haha

 

[rt dak]

I would be looking at those bluestone slopes.

Was leaking prior to those being installed.

 

[rt dak]

That's the one picture I'm talking about.

Then I'd go back to really investigate the ridge. Has anyone gone into the antic to look for staining?. If you can spot some fresh marks, that'll help you track it down. Oops, I guess that scratch that idea eh..haha

Again, what makes you say the flashing is terrible?

 

[rt dak]

I would guess that it is wicking in via the masonery somewhere. Possibly the angled granite slabs on either side of the chimney.

Nice house !

It's wet in the attic behind the chimney.a few feet above the angled flagstone.

 

[LXCam]

Again, what makes you say the flashing is terrible?

That much exposed surface metal will be extremely prone to expansion and contraction. Any mastic used to seal it after it has had time to dry out will break it's bond from all that movement. But you are already certain that's not the cause of your leak. Have you tried pulling the drywall off on the up stairs to see if water is transferring down from up top. Are there any signs of leakage on the second floor?.

 

[Hornman]

If that brick chimney does indeed date back to 1959, my guess is that there are some micro cracks in the mortar that is letting water in and then channeling the water to the top of the fireplace mantel. I would have all the exterior brick tuck pointed and coat all the mortar with an acrylic sealant.

 

[rt dak]

That much exposed surface metal will be extremely prone to expansion and contraction. Any mastic used to seal it after it has had time to dry out will break it's bond from all that movement. But you are already certain that's not the cause of your leak. Have you tried pulling the drywall off on the up stairs to see if water is transferring down from up top. Are there any signs of leakage on the second floor?.

I am not certain it isn't my leak. That's why i'm posting. There is no drywall upstairs, it's an unfinished attic and inside behind the chimney is wet.

I watched my contractor soak the entire chimey and surrounding areas of the roof with a hose for 30 mins on Friday and we can not replicate the leak.

 

[rt dak]

If that brick chimney does indeed date back to 1959, my guess is that there are some micro cracks in the mortar that is letting water in and then channeling the water to the top of the fireplace mantel. I would have all the exterior brick tuck pointed and coat all the mortar with an acrylic sealant.

As I said, it is brick veneer that was installed 2 months ago. It is a block chimney underneath.

 

[matt_i]

I would look at your chimney cap. If cracked from freezing it can let water into the interior of the chimney, bbetween the inner sleeve and outer wall where there can just be a pile of rubble used as filler.

I would make sure there is new step flashing (not reused, it will be full of holes, the reason its not redone is the roofer is moving too fast to tear it all out and redo it properly). THen there should be counterflashing, which is bent at the top, and set into grooves cut into the mortar. Then its flashing-cemented (silicone caulk, solar seal, etc) into that groove.

It takes several hours to flash and counterflash a chimney properly, you need snips and some way to make the bends.

 

[premierplayer]

When the roof was done, he left the original flashing around the chimney.

What you see in the pictures is counter flashing, there should be step flashing under that between each course of shingles. You can't do this correctly leaving the old flashing in place.
There should also be a head flashing on the high side of the chimney (last picture), I'm not seeing one.
All it takes is one piece of the step flashing to be installed incorrectly and the whole thing is undermined. You should be able to see metal between each course of shingles at the chimney repetitive up the roof, if not visable between the tab slots, you should be able to lift the tabs on a sunny day to inspect all is in place properly.
Lots of ways to do this, this may help you understand it a little better.
https://www.google.com/search?q=chi...=Re9EV6_YKcLw-AHzoYi4Dw#imgrc=VY2jkHwWDsOFyM:
Go to the roof suppy center in your area, ask for a recommendation, call the Co. and have them come out and inspect.

 

[wssix99]

I would guess that it is wicking in via the masonery somewhere. Possibly the angled granite slabs on either side of the chimney.

Nice house !

I would be looking at those bluestone slopes.

I would look at your chimney cap. If cracked from freezing it can let water into the interior of the chimney, bbetween the inner sleeve and outer wall where there can just be a pile of rubble used as filler.

I would make sure there is new step flashing (not reused, it will be full of holes, the reason its not redone is the roofer is moving too fast to tear it all out and redo it properly). THen there should be counterflashing, which is bent at the top, and set into grooves cut into the mortar. Then its flashing-cemented (silicone caulk, solar seal, etc) into that groove.

It takes several hours to flash and counterflash a chimney properly, you need snips and some way to make the bends.

^ I like these ideas and it would also explain why the hose test didn't work. I've had to chase a lot of these things down over the years and the hose doesn't lie - so you shouldn't discount the results. If you didn't get the leak with pointing the hose in a certain place, that's most likely not the place its leaking from.

With the efflorescence and wetness you have on the front of the fireplace, it looks like there is a good bit of water behind that brick. If the leak was on the outside of the chimney, you should see water on the surface of the chimney in the attic.

I wonder if the dampness you feel on the roof is just moisture wicking through the brick up there in to the roofing material?


It does not look like accessing the chimney cap is an easy/fun thing to do. Maybe this is the excuse you need to get that drone you've always wanted???

 

[readhead]

I just read your first post again and the time line seems to point to the new roof installation. As mentioned above the reuse of the existing flashing may be the culprit.

If it were me I would strip back the shingles a couple of feet around the chimney and install new step shingles and counter flashing.

 

[rt dak]

When the roof was done the original flashing was left on. The copper flashing you see in the pics is NOT that original flashing. It was done 2 months ago when the chimney was veneered. There is flashing on the high side of the chimney. The caps were also done at that time. The guy I have working on it now says the new flashing looks correct (he's not the one that installed it) but I will have him go over it again. I think he was planning on pulling some shingles around the chimney anyway.

 

[strutaeng]

Interesting thread.
I've got a chimney on my house that also leaks and have been researching the right way these things need to be built.

I think the possible sources of leaks are:

1. Flue crown. I read that these need to be cast-in-place concrete and it needs to overhang the brick with a drip edge.

2. Missing cap. Obviously water would just flow down to the hearth.

3. Flashing at the roof. Probably the most challenging. On your 6th photo, it looks like there is brick moisture below the roof line. Is your counterflahing into the brick with a reglet? Basically, the brick is grooved and the counterflashing bends into the groove. That way you are not relying on the sealant against the brick for water tightness.

It looks like the chimney is only about 1-2 feet into the roof and the roof itself is very steep. Water should shed very easily. I would focus on the high side. Get on the roof and snap some photos.

Also, those sloping stones look like water can get in. Was it flashed behind the siding? At the minimum you should apply sealant.

By the way, are those ventilation fans on your chimney? Mine has something almost identical! I wan't to remove mine because they look ugly.

Here is a helpful link that I found:

http://www.familyhandyman.com/roof/installing-chimney-flashing/view-all

 

[rburke65]

Please let us know what you find.

 

[CNGsaves]

Why that giant flashing on downhill side of the chimney ?? It doesn't look tight/sealed to the brick ??

+1 that top cap should completely cover the brick and have outward lip to shed water just like normal dripedge on roof.

There are SERIOUS problems with that much water coming in. No doubt you have MOLD problem now in the making.

I'd be Tarping that entire chimney until you get this figured out.

 

[Fishplate]

I had the same problem on a masonry chimney. A long steady rain would result in a big wet stain on the inside of the masonry in the house, and nearby drywall. One guy tried some Thompson's on the outside, but that didnt' help.

It finally took a new cement cap on the top and some proper sealant on the outside. Cost around $1200 (it's a big chimney) but no leaks for 18 months now.

 

[[email protected]]

I had the same problem with my chimeny. No matter how many time the roofing guy came back out, it still leaked. He said it was not my roof. I sealed it with some stuff a friend of mine had that they seal highway bridges with. Looks like milk but dries clear. It allows the brick to breath,but still seals it from water. Not a drop since.

 

[pmiranda]

I would bet on the flashing where the roof meets the chimney, especially at the high side. Also... shouldn't there be flashing where the siding meets the chimney? Maybe just hard to see from these pictures.

 

[rt dak]

Well it seems that ever since the plastic sheeting got put on the roof the water only comes in when it's not raining.

It was dry Wednesday morning, came home from work and it was wet. (Never rained)
It was dry Thursday morning, came home from work and it was wet (Never rained)
It was dry Friday morning, wife texted me at noon and it was wet (Never rained). Dried up within a few hours. Torrential downpours Friday night and it never got wet.
Got wet Saturday morning around 10 AM then dried up.
Got wet Sunday (yesterday) morning around 10 AM then dried up.
Rained all last night and it isn't wet.

I might try to get the mason that veneered the chimney and stuff here at the same time as the guy I have looking at the roof and see if they can put their heads together.

 

[OccupantRJ]

Bag the upper part of the chimney with plastic and see what develops after that.

 

[pmiranda]

Any change to insulation or vapor barrier with the new roof? Maybe condensation?

 

[rt dak]

Bag the upper part of the chimney with plastic and see what develops after that.

Was going to do that on Thursday until I got up there and found out very quickly I am not comfortable on a roof pitched that steep.

Any change to insulation or vapor barrier with the new roof? Maybe condensation?

New roof has ice & water shield. Old one did not.

 

[CJ7VFR]

Bag the upper part of the chimney with plastic and see what develops after that.

I agree with this. By the looks in the pictures, it appears the water might be coming from the inside of the chimney and weeping out thru cracks in the mortar inside the house.

If this is the case, then it could also explain why you don't see the water until after the rain is gone. Water could be getting into your chimney and working it's way down. It might take awhile for it to get down to where your fireplace is and show up.

You mentioned the brick on the outside of the chimney is a veneer, and was recently done also. Perhaps during the veneer installation some small cracks were made bigger and now let water in.

Like you said, being on a steep roof is NOT fun! If you don't have a big enough ladder to reach the top of the chimney, have someone bag up the upper part for you.

Being safe is a lot better than having a broken leg, or worse!

You'll get this figured out. Hopefully it will be an easy fix, and you and your family will be enjoying your new house, leak free!

Jim

 

[jask]

Lots to see there... the bricks on the outer face of the chimney also appear to be damp/wet in a big patch extending up to almost as high as those upstairs windows? I would have a hard look at those bluestone caps ( what is that dark spot at the top of the right one on the wall face?) and how they are flashed. The crown on the chimney looks insubstantial- is it just a mortar cap? does it clear water or let it stand?... flashing?? what is going on there?? on the low side there is a tall section of base flashing and on the high side ( where you want it taller) I don't really see flashing. properly done the flashing is let into a cut made between courses of brick, not "gooped" onto the brick. the fact that you have moisture staining the brick above the fireplace opening makes me think it might be traveling down between the block and veneer... bagging the top and hosing it should help narrow things down but I would also recommend getting your hands on a FLIR inspection camera and shooting the attic deck from inside - if you have water leaking under the shingles and travelling across the membrane you could be "pouring" water in between the layers and under a properly installed chimney flashing, the fact that the deck is damp when it has the guard layer on it does not bode well. The flir will show damp or wet areas as dark or black and help you trace back to the point of entry.

 

[strutaeng]

OP: when you say that the chimney was veneered, does that mean that it was not brick to begin with? Is it concrete block framed or lumber framed?

As far as I know, brick chimneys are true "load bearing" brick.

It seems like like water is getting through the flue or crown also.

I also vote for temporarily covering the top.

 

[borisdavenport]

One of my friends had a similar situation. He tried his best to locate the leak.
At last, he got a free roofing inspection from Empire roofing corporation and fixed the issue. I advise you to try this.
If you go for full roofing inspection and audit it will cost up to $1500. He skipped this cost.
If you are looking for a mortgage try to consult a mortgage broker, I think you can skip the re-roofing in that way. Hope this will help you