2 prong outlets - change to GFCI or AFCI?

[Oggy]

Here's the situation: Wife and I are purchasing a home (built in 1951) that has 2 prong outlets throughout the house. We know we're going to need 3 prong outlets in atleast a few spots, and the research I've done (and have seen here/read here) shows that I can put in a GFCI, while it will still remain un-grounded, we'll receive the benefit of a GFCI, as well as be able to plug in 3 prong plugs.

I know that code calls for AFCI protected outlets in bedrooms, and Lutron's website says that an AFCI outlet can be used in the same manner. So here's the questions I have:

Should I install AFCI's in the bedroom locations that need them, while still installing GFCI's in the Bathroom/kitchen?

The Electrical panel for the house has been updated, but only has 2 wires connected to the ground buss, I'm assuming one is the ground for the panel and the other I believe would be for the kitchen, as when the inspector checked those outlets, they were grounded. There weren't any GFCI or AFCI breakers in the panel, but there were 4 extra single pole, and 1 extra double pole (not sure on how many amps).

A little snippet, the house has a 100 amp panel, and an attached garage for the wife, there is also a detached garage... with a 100 amp panel, lights and outlets already installed, and are spaced about 8' apart, plenty of room to grow in the electrical panel... oh yeah, it's 32x36 built approximately 4 years ago...

 

[Moto]

I would install GFCI outlets as needed for 3 prong appliances, but otherwise leave well enough alone.

How hard would it be to run new wires?

There are combo devices, outlets with both AFCI and GFCI, that you could use.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

It depends on what kind of boxes you have in the walls,lots of the old metal boxes arent big enough for a gfi outlet.
You could always just install gfi breakers if youre really worried about it.
As far as afci breakers go Id be worried about shared neutrals among existing circuits in the walls,they dont work so good in that situation.

 

[CNGsaves]

OP . . you sure you HAVE to put in any snake-oil AFCI for bedrooms in old house ??

I'd follow any "grandfather" guidelines to avoid that instead of snake oil.

 

[GS-Louie]

The house is over 60 years old. A 100 amp panel is kind of small for a modern house. I would upgrade the whole house wiring. I would be concerned with all the non-code things that could have happened to that wiring and the condition of the wiring itself. That way things are installed correctly and will have the ability to safely handle the modern loads. It could also allow for a big savings on your homeowners insurance.

Just my thoughts.

Lou

 

[theoldwizard1]

I would install GFCI outlets as needed for 3 prong appliances, but otherwise leave well enough alone.

AND bathroom and kitchen !

You do NOT want to install more than 1 GFCI on a "daisy chain" of outlets. You will have problems.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

The house is over 60 years old. A 100 amp panel is kind of small for a modern house. I would upgrade the whole house wiring. I would be concerned with all the non-code things that could have happened to that wiring and the condition of the wiring itself. That way things are installed correctly and will have the ability to safely handle the modern loads. It could also allow for a big savings on your homeowners insurance.

Just my thoughts.

Lou

Theres plenty of large houses out there that wont overload a 100a electric service.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Here's the situation: Wife and I are purchasing a home (built in 1951) that has 2 prong outlets throughout the house. We know we're going to need 3 prong outlets in atleast a few spots, and the research I've done (and have seen here/read here) shows that I can put in a GFCI, while it will still remain un-grounded, we'll receive the benefit of a GFCI, as well as be able to plug in 3 prong plugs.

I know that code calls for AFCI protected outlets in bedrooms, and Lutron's website says that an AFCI outlet can be used in the same manner. So here's the questions I have:

Should I install AFCI's in the bedroom locations that need them, while still installing GFCI's in the Bathroom/kitchen?

The Electrical panel for the house has been updated, but only has 2 wires connected to the ground buss, I'm assuming one is the ground for the panel and the other I believe would be for the kitchen, as when the inspector checked those outlets, they were grounded. There weren't any GFCI or AFCI breakers in the panel, but there were 4 extra single pole, and 1 extra double pole (not sure on how many amps).

A little snippet, the house has a 100 amp panel, and an attached garage for the wife, there is also a detached garage... with a 100 amp panel, lights and outlets already installed, and are spaced about 8' apart, plenty of room to grow in the electrical panel... oh yeah, it's 32x36 built approximately 4 years ago...

If the appliance has a 3-prong grounded cord, a GFCI WONT provide proper grounding for the appliance.

The only benefit is if the appliance has an internal short to the frame, the GFCI will trip ONLY IF current leaks and doesnt return on the neutral wire.

What type of appliances are we talking about?

Certain appliances such as furnaces MUST have a proper ground connection.

 

[ddawg16]

Having to upgrade to AFCI depends on what kind of work you do to your electrical and the local codes. If you pull a permit for electrical, expect them to require AFCI.

My personal opinion....and experience (my house was also built in 52 and is most likely a lot like yours electrically)

With your older wiring and outlets, and AFCI could cause you to have false trips.

As diesel noted....appliances need a real earth ground.

First thing....find the first outlet for each ckt. You need a complete map of all outlets and which breaker they go to.

A 100A panel should be fine as long as your heating and cooking is gas. If you swap out all your lights to LED and CFL, the current draw on those will be small. Modern TV's pull less current. An iron is an iron....same as it was in 52. I have a 200A panel....I doubt I've used more than 25% of the available power.

Once you have found the first outlet, you can put a GFCI in it's place. No, you won't be properly grounded....but if there is a ground fault, it will trip. All the outlets downstream from it will also be protected. Hence, you can install standard 3-prong outlets so all of your cords will work.

The kitchen stuff really needs an earth ground. I wouldn't want my fridge ungrounded. It's not that hard to fish a ground wire from either the crawl space or attic. If you have a basement, then I'd consider rewiring what you can get to.

 

[Mustang51js]

Did you check to see if theres a ground, just because its a two prong doesnt mean the box isnt grounded. I rarely come across a two prong that the box isnt grounded unless its knob and tubing

 

[Oggy]

It depends on what kind of boxes you have in the walls,lots of the old metal boxes arent big enough for a gfi outlet.

I hadn't thought about the size of the boxes...

You could always just install gfi breakers if youre really worried about it.
As far as afci breakers go Id be worried about shared neutrals among existing circuits in the walls,they dont work so good in that situation.

I plan on changing the breakers out when I need to, or when I redo the wiring, depending.

If the appliance has a 3-prong grounded cord, a GFCI WONT provide proper grounding for the appliance.

The only benefit is if the appliance has an internal short to the frame, the GFCI will trip ONLY IF current leaks and doesnt return on the neutral wire.

What type of appliances are we talking about?

Certain appliances such as furnaces MUST have a proper ground connection.

I'm not really worried about appliances, they're in the kitchen which showed as being grounded when the inspector checked them. I'm not sure where the ground came from as I only see one ground attached to the buss bar. The Washer is 3' from the panel and I can easily add a ground if it's not grounded, the furnace, water heater, and stove are all gas. Which leaves the kitchen, but like I said the kitchen showed as being grounded...

Having to upgrade to AFCI depends on what kind of work you do to your electrical and the local codes. If you pull a permit for electrical, expect them to require AFCI.

My personal opinion....and experience (my house was also built in 52 and is most likely a lot like yours electrically)

With your older wiring and outlets, and AFCI could cause you to have false trips.

As diesel noted....appliances need a real earth ground.

First thing....find the first outlet for each ckt. You need a complete map of all outlets and which breaker they go to.

This is something I had planned, I hate not knowing what breaker each item is on.

A 100A panel should be fine as long as your heating and cooking is gas. If you swap out all your lights to LED and CFL, the current draw on those will be small. Modern TV's pull less current. An iron is an iron....same as it was in 52. I have a 200A panel....I doubt I've used more than 25% of the available power.

We've only ever had an issue when we were running a heater, the microwave, and we don't know what else is on the circuit in the rental we live in... The heating and cooking in the new house is gas.

Once you have found the first outlet, you can put a GFCI in it's place. No, you won't be properly grounded....but if there is a ground fault, it will trip. All the outlets downstream from it will also be protected. Hence, you can install standard 3-prong outlets so all of your cords will work.

The kitchen stuff really needs an earth ground. I wouldn't want my fridge ungrounded. It's not that hard to fish a ground wire from either the crawl space or attic. If you have a basement, then I'd consider rewiring what you can get to.

There is a walk-out basement, and half of it is finished,

Did you check to see if theres a ground, just because its a two prong doesnt mean the box isnt grounded. I rarely come across a two prong that the box isnt grounded unless its knob and tubing

I agree, and like I said, there's a ground showing in the kitchen even though there's only two grounds connected in the panel, presumably the panel ground, and one other, that I'm not sure where it goes... (ignore the arrow, it was pointing at the wiring being copper and not aluminum)

View media item 60856

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Are the branch circuits wired with BX or MC?

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Looks like a lot of it is old 2 wire romex from the picture anyway,It was common around here around the time that house was built.
The house Im sitting in has lots of it,built in early 50s also.
Kind of a transitional period around here anyway when romex and sheetrock covered with plaster started to arive on the scene.

 

[Oggy]

Are the branch circuits wired with BX or MC?

If those are my only two options, I would say bx, but the inspector called it 2 wire romex. I'm not sure if it was a limitation of electrical km knowledge, or if it was him putting it in terms I would understand (him not knowing the level of expertise of each prospective home buyer)

In any event, there are no grounds behind the cover plates so it would not be mc, and I also don't see any in the panel.

Looks like a lot of it is old 2 wire romex from the picture anyway,It was common around here around the time that house was built.
The house Im sitting in has lots of it,built in early 50s also.
Kind of a transitional period around here anyway when romex and sheetrock covered with plaster started to arive on the scene.

Sounds exactly like this one.

Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk

 

[Muzzy]

If it were me, I would investigate the kitchen outlet grounding a little more.

You sometimes see people ground outlets to the nearest water pipe, which relies on the integrity of your plumbing system for proper grounding.

The only two ground wires in the panel would lead to a panel ground, and plumbing ground. Good luck! I owned a house about the same age, and some of the tricks they pulled to get a grounded outlet would make insurance agents lose sleep.

 

[Oggy]

That's a good point, I may need to look at the panel outside where there are two disconnects (garage and house), just in case somebody got lazy.

The kitchen is right over the utility room and it wouldn't be difficult to correct the problems in there. Just maybe a little time consuming to do it right and make it look good.

Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk

 

[wyliesdiesels]

2-wire NM (Romex is a brand) wouldnt be ran in BX or MC. If AC- armored cable was used( BX, MC, etc) then the ground would be carried through the metal conduit to the metal box and u wouldnt see a ground wire in the box.

The furnace, and gas range should definitely be grounded if theyre not and the water heater should have the hot cold and gas line bonded together.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

2-wire NM (Romex is a brand) wouldnt be ran in BX or MC. If AC- armored cable was used( BX, MC, etc) then the ground would be carried through the metal conduit to the metal box and u wouldnt see a ground wire in the box.

The furnace, and gas range should definitely be grounded if theyre not and the water heater should have the hot cold and gas line bonded together.

Yeah but romex always sounds cooler than nm! Ive called it romex pretty much universally since the 70s,kind of like greenfield being universal for flex.

 

[Moto]

If it were me, I would investigate the kitchen outlet grounding a little more.

You sometimes see people ground outlets to the nearest water pipe, which relies on the integrity of your plumbing system for proper grounding.

The other trick is a "bootleg ground" -- connecting the ground on the outlet to the neutral wire. It shows ok on a circuit tester, but is a hazard.

 

[James-W]

Are the walls and ceiling insulated? If they aren't insulated, you may want to consider gutting the house, rewiring, insulating and then putting up new drywall. I know it is a lot of work, but I think long term it would be worth it. Having a well insulated home would save you money on heating/cooling and you would have all new wiring. If you could do most, or all, of the work yourself the cost would be fairly minimal but the rewards would be substantial.

 

[Oggy]

Are the walls and ceiling insulated? If they aren't insulated, you may want to consider gutting the house, rewiring, insulating and then putting up new drywall. I know it is a lot of work, but I think long term it would be worth it. Having a well insulated home would save you money on heating/cooling and you would have all new wiring. If you could do most, or all, of the work yourself the cost would be fairly minimal but the rewards would be substantial.

This has definitely been considered, we are going to see after the first winter how things are on that front and go from there.

There are always improvements that can be made, but we want to be sure that we are spending in the right places to maximize the bang for our buck.

Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk

 

[James-W]

This has definitely been considered, we are going to see after the first winter how things are on that front and go from there.

There are always improvements that can be made, but we want to be sure that we are spending in the right places to maximize the bang for our buck.

Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk

I know I don't get to vote on whether you do it or not, but I would say that money spent on insulation and on proper wiring would be money well spent. Plus, as an added benefit, you can add more outlets, add more circuits, move outlets to where you want them, or do whatever you want that fits your needs. Anyway, that is my way of looking at it, be it right or wrong.

 

[haulinbass08]

This has definitely been considered, we are going to see after the first winter how things are on that front and go from there.

There are always improvements that can be made, but we want to be sure that we are spending in the right places to maximize the bang for our buck.

Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk

If you do it yourself then you are maximizing your bang for your buck. We had a situation pretty much like yours, older house built in 50s, old wiring, add on to house built with sub panel. Every time A/C would kick on the lights in the whole house would flicker and dim.
I finally got tired of it and put us up at my in laws for a week. Ran the wire myself and installed new 200A panel in garage. Tied sub panel wires in a junction box in the attic and ran those circuits back to new panel. I cut holes in the wall where I needed to install/replace boxes, run wire, etc.
An electrician friend of mine helped and guided me through the whole process. He came and inspected it, put his stamp of approval on it and the city inspector approved it.
I then proceeded to gut the walls one room at a time, I ended up replacing the old drafty windows at that time as well, insulated the walls, put up new drywall and finished it all myself. Took me about 8 months going room to room but house was live able again after power and we just dealt with it knowing the outcome would be worth it. And believe me it was. I had contractor quotes of $30k to do what I did for about $12k.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Oggy]

I definitely agree with doing the work right. And my wife and I do plan on doing the wiring & insulation properly.

My "bang for the buck" was referring to whether we start in the kitchen with new cabinets & appliances (dishwasher is getting replaced off the bat, the one that's there is inoperable and I'm not throwing money into something 7 years old that I have no history on), or we do insulation windows and electrical.

We want to redo it all, but if it's going to mean we save money in utilities, then we go that route first. We also need to consider though, I'm still early in my career, and while we love this home, and plan on staying here we also need to consider the possibility of relocating in the future (though the location should help keep that from happening).... In order to sell and profit, it would need a kitchen... and bathrooms...

I'm not afraid of the work, but any connections I would have in the trades are 6 hours away, so if I get stuck and need the help, it'll be a bill. So I need to be sure we have the contingency ready.

Thank You everyone for the input, it is much appreciated, I know I have a list that starts in the kitchen and moves to the basement/utility room pretty quick for some electrical grounds...

Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk

 

[bczygan]

Here's the situation: Wife and I are purchasing a home (built in 1951) that has 2 prong outlets throughout the house. We know we're going to need 3 prong outlets in atleast a few spots, and the research I've done (and have seen here/read here) shows that I can put in a GFCI, while it will still remain un-grounded, we'll receive the benefit of a GFCI, as well as be able to plug in 3 prong plugs.

I know that code calls for AFCI protected outlets in bedrooms, and Lutron's website says that an AFCI outlet can be used in the same manner. So here's the questions I have:

Should I install AFCI's in the bedroom locations that need them, while still installing GFCI's in the Bathroom/kitchen?

The Electrical panel for the house has been updated, but only has 2 wires connected to the ground buss, I'm assuming one is the ground for the panel and the other I believe would be for the kitchen, as when the inspector checked those outlets, they were grounded. There weren't any GFCI or AFCI breakers in the panel, but there were 4 extra single pole, and 1 extra double pole (not sure on how many amps).

A little snippet, the house has a 100 amp panel, and an attached garage for the wife, there is also a detached garage... with a 100 amp panel, lights and outlets already installed, and are spaced about 8' apart, plenty of room to grow in the electrical panel... oh yeah, it's 32x36 built approximately 4 years ago...

As usual the GJ community has offered you every solution, from soup to nuts.

Your solution depends on your particular situation.

How long do you intend to live there? What will need to be done for eventual resale?

Most importantly, what is your budget and ability to do the work?

Do you intend to pull permits?

I could tell you what I am going to do with my similar house, but it would be irrelevant for you.

Bill

 

[Oggy]

As usual the GJ community has offered you every solution, from soup to nuts.

Your solution depends on your particular situation.

How long do you intend to live there? What will need to be done for eventual resale?

Most importantly, what is your budget and ability to do the work?

Do you intend to pull permits?

Bill

All of these are the things that we are going to look at as we go.

We want to see how the insulation currently is in the home before we rip out walls to upgrade vs cutting small areas out in order to replace wiring.

I'm working on my MBA (within a year hopefully) and am currently in a growing niche career (Foreign Trade Zone operation within a US manufacturing facility - my position helps keep manufacturing jobs in America). While we like where we are, and love the house, we know there is still the possibility of relocation, albeit it would require a hefty salary increase...

I'm not afraid to learn, and I'm not afraid of hard work, never have been. But I'm also not afraid of having someone look over my work and make sure I'm not going to burn down the house I have my family living in. If I'm doing electrical work, throughout the whole house I'd probably pull a permit, if only for the simple reason of having somebody come and inspect my work to ensure it's all done safely and properly. I would likely talk to the inspector and find out what his take on the project is before starting (all homework complete on the particulars for that project completed prior to speaking to him of course). I'm generally not afraid of asking questions, however I do try to exhaust other avenues first (opinionated questions are a bit different).

GJ is great, The people here are awesome, and generally willing to help. I have found that if you ask a question in "Free Parking" though you'd better be prepared for the people who don't really want to provide an answer...

Getting back to the GFCI/AFCI, and talking about the ground, nearly anything we would plug in requiring a 3 prong outlet, that doesn't already have one, would be our laptop computers, TV, or other electronics like the such... The wood floors won't need to be refinished for hopefully quite a few years, I have enough battery tools/batteries that I won't need to plug in my corded tools in at the house (barring a catastrophe from a child), and I believe the vacuum is only 2 prong, but I could be wrong on that one.

So how important is the ground to those electrical items (aforementioned tv/laptop/cable box/etc)? Assuming there isn't one at the box.

 

[Muzzy]

I suspect you'll find that you more often than not don't need a grounded outlet. Looking around my living room, with lamps, TV, game console, stereo, laptops etc. the only thing that has a ground pin on the plug is the fancy led lamps we have for the houseplants.

Where I would truly be concerned, especially for the electronics is with the surge protectors, which will definitely have a ground pin. Having lived in the central NY, (and now in NE PA) electrical surges from storms and outages would make me reluctant to not use surge protection. My opinion is you can live without grounded outlets, but its worth your time to get a grounded outlet to each room.

 

[Oggy]

I did think of what actually had the ground pin, my laptops all have a ground pin (one personal, one work, and then my wifes), but not too much else that's used daily inside the house.

I'm thinking I may want to go the whole house surge protector route though. The number of electronics in the house seems to be ever increasing, and for the price of putting a good surge protector on each one would be outrageous, think microwave, dishwasher, washer, refrigerator, and anything else. A little research shows that Schneider makes one (HEPD80) that's pretty reasonably priced, $100-$200, and gets great reviews. Installing it seems as easy as installing a breaker into the panel.

Anyone know of a real draw back?



Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk

 

[Oggy]

$82.80 on Amazon.com...

Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk