Strange GFCI issue – two dings and it’s dead

[ghlkal]

Sorry to lure you in with the title, but here’s the scoop

My wife bought me a Milton Bell for the garage. These are like the “old time” service station ding-ding bells. see http://www.miltonsbells.com/

Well, after the second or third “ding,” the Bell trips the GFCI.

I can repeat this all day long. I thought maybe there’s an issue with the first GFCI in the garage, so I tried the second circuit – same result. I tried a house GFCI – same result.

I tried contacting Milton Bell, but there’s no response. I will keep trying, but I decided to look inside and see if there’s anything obviously wrong (not that I would necessarily know ;-)

Any thoughts?

 

[shelteredV]

the gfi doesn't like being loaded like that. Take the gfi out of the loop.

 

[kd3pc]

fairly normal and to be expected, given the type of load being presented to the GFCI....they are not made for this and are reacting as expected.

 

[nehog]

I don't see this as normal. I don't see this as safe either. GFCI is doing its job.

I doubt you have the tools to test leakage, but my guess either the switch, or the solenoid coil is defective.

 

[checkthisout]

Sorry to lure you in with the title, but here’s the scoop

My wife bought me a Milton Bell for the garage. These are like the “old time” service station ding-ding bells. see http://www.miltonsbells.com/

Well, after the second or third “ding,” the Bell trips the GFCI.

I can repeat this all day long. I thought maybe there’s an issue with the first GFCI in the garage, so I tried the second circuit – same result. I tried a house GFCI – same result.

I tried contacting Milton Bell, but there’s no response. I will keep trying, but I decided to look inside and see if there’s anything obviously wrong (not that I would necessarily know ;-)

Any thoughts?

Capacitance/inductance caused by hysterisis.

Install on non-gfci circuit and re-test.

 

[justsam]

What a cool gift! Kudo's to your wife! I didn't know they were making repros of them. My shop is remote to my house and I think I will rig one of these to sound when someone is at my front house door.

I too do not feel they should trip a GFCI. If that is normal then these pretty much can not be used in modern garages, since virtually all garage outlets now require GFCI.

True the solenoid in the device is an inductive load, but so are refrigerators, and any other device having solenoid valves, such as ice makers or gas appliances.

I am sure that putting it on a non GFCI will solve it, but there really needs to be a leakage test done since some current is finding a path other than hot to neutral. If I were Milton, I would want to know of this right away.

 

[Cmreschke]

Hardwire it to a non gfi ckt.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

the gfi doesn't like being loaded like that. Take the gfi out of the loop.

fairly normal and to be expected, given the type of load being presented to the GFCI....they are not made for this and are reacting as expected.

Both wrong.

GFCIs dont give a hoot about the load as long as it doesnt leak current. GFCIs are NOT circuit breakers/OCPDs...

The GFCIs are tripping because the bells are leaking current outside of the hot and neutral portion of the circuit.

 

[manwithtools]

Both wrong.

GFCIs dont give a hoot about the load as long as it doesnt leak current. GFCIs are NOT circuit breakers/OCPDs...

The GFCIs are tripping because the bells are leaking current outside of the hot and neutral portion of the circuit.

Well, maybe and maybe not. As I understand the operation of a GFCI, it measures an imbalance between hot and neutral currents in a circuit. It does not only measure leakage of current - an imbalance is inferred to mean leakage in this case. This is why they can work on a two wire circuit, they are detecting current imbalance between the un-grounded and grounded conductors, not current leakage to ground.

That Milton bell has a hefty little solenoid and spring in it to ring that bell. When the solenoid retracts back from it's extended position (bell not rung) it can induce current (Faraday's Law) in the one side of circuit which is now different than the other side of the circuit.

Cycle it a couple of times and the induced current is enough to trip the GFCI. I'll bet it's pretty repeatable as the OP describes. Moving to a non GFCI circuit may be the only way to stop this behavior.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Some GFCIs will trip from that unit because there is a spark when the switch in the solenoid circuit opens. They create a pretty "noisy" circuit, the same reason brush motors trip GFCIs.

I have a Milton driveway signal in my garage, too, as a parking stop indicator. It's not on a GFCI.

 

[ghlkal]

Thanks for all the feedback, guys.


I'm not an electrical expert, so I appreciate the comments.


Yes, if I put it on a non-GFCI circuit, it works fine, but ... is it supposed to be that way, or is there something wrong inside there? When, and if, I hear back from Milton Bell, I'll let you know.

 

[manwithtools]

IF you hear back from Milton, I'll bet they tell you it won't work on a GFCI.

 

[justsam]

IF you hear back from Milton, I'll bet they tell you it won't work on a GFCI.

Seems like a good way to reduce your potential market in the future since most areas in the country today REQUIRE GFCI on ALL new home garage circuits.

 

[nsula_country]

When these were originally built, we did not have GFCI protection and un-grounded, non-polarized receptacles. I'm with, ManWithTools on this one. It's a noisy circuit with imbalances, not leakage. I bet it will Meg out or High Pot fine.

Some things just will not work on GFCI circuits due to design. GFCI's sample line and neutral current. When differential current between them exceeds 5ma, it will trip. That coil driven, spring loaded solenoid, dry contact, mechanism operates it is like a Model T trembler coil. Very dirty if looked at on a scope. Another example would be an Acr Transmitter...

I'd put it on a non GFCI protected circuit and be happy!

CT

 

[justsam]

Ian sure this not an original bell and I think most Milton products are made in China today.

The point is if Milton wants to sell these in the US where new construction requires GFCI on all garage circuits, than they need to fix the problem. Could be as simple as a clamping diode, swamping resistor, shunt capacitor,etc.

These would not work in my garage for example where I have all GFI breakers.

Short of repealing Kirchhoffs current law, there is some form of leakage going on.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Well, maybe and maybe not. As I understand the operation of a GFCI, it measures an imbalance between hot and neutral currents in a circuit. It does not only measure leakage of current - an imbalance is inferred to mean leakage in this case. This is why they can work on a two wire circuit, they are detecting current imbalance between the un-grounded and grounded conductors, not current leakage to ground.

That Milton bell has a hefty little solenoid and spring in it to ring that bell. When the solenoid retracts back from it's extended position (bell not rung) it can induce current (Faraday's Law) in the one side of circuit which is now different than the other side of the circuit.

Cycle it a couple of times and the induced current is enough to trip the GFCI. I'll bet it's pretty repeatable as the OP describes. Moving to a non GFCI circuit may be the only way to stop this behavior.

Current leaking outside the circuit will cause an imbalance. And as u said, if current can be induced into the circuit then there will be an imbalance.

However, if current is leaking in a circuit, it would have to be leaking via a neutral or bonded object to allow it to go back to the source, either the panel and ultimately the transformer or directly to the transformer...

 

[manwithtools]

Ian sure this not an original bell and I think most Milton products are made in China today.

The point is if Milton wants to sell these in the US where new construction requires GFCI on all garage circuits, than they need to fix the problem. Could be as simple as a clamping diode, swamping resistor, shunt capacitor,etc.

These would not work in my garage for example where I have all GFI breakers.

Short of repealing Kirchhoffs current law, there is some form of leakage going on.

I can't say what I want to say, so I'll just say this: this Milton bell and Kirchhoff do not care about your GFCI garage or mine. Think when this bell and its circuit were designed. There are plenty of garages out there without GFCI outlets and people are not dying because of it. The Milton bell works fine in those garages and they get all the business they want. They just might not work in modern code compliant garages as might not some other things. Life goes on.

There is no leakage outside the circuit going on, there is induction within the circuit. Think this thorough very carefully. A closed circuit can have current induced by a generator within the circuit or outside the circuit (inductance from a high power parallel conductor). In this case the generator is the solenoid. The current detector is the GFCI and it is not happy.

Send the Milton bell to me and I'll Hi-pot test and report back. This is being way over analyzed.

 

[nsula_country]

I think they are trying to convince us that GFCI devices are 100% accurate in fault detection, with 0% false trips and work with 100% of all appliances ever made.. and that this little bell is defective.

I've seen brand new fluorescent light fixtures trip a GFCI on startup. Just would not work on a GFCI circuit.

CT

 

[ghlkal]

I was able to contact Milton Bell. They say the bell should _not_ be tripping the GFCI.

They will be sending me a new bell and I'll send the current bell back to them.

I'll be anxious to try the new one and see what happens.

I'll report back.

 

[ghlkal]

Well, darn ...

Milton Bell sent me a new bell and I set it up. I stomped it (the hose, that is) a few times and it worked (without tripping the GCFI). I drove over it a few times and everything was fine. I continued to stomp on it every time I went in or out of the garage. I must have "rung the bell" 30 times. Just before I closed the garage door for the night, I stomped on the hose one final time and ... the GFCI tripped.



So, I reset it and tried again. This time it tripped on about the 10th ring.

I will contact Milton Bell, but either there's a design flaw, the same component is leaking, or these things don't work on a GFCI.

 

[Dustball]

I have a freezer that would trip the GFCI outlet its plugged into. I then plugged it into a surge power strip into the same outlet and it's never tripped since.

 

[BFBOB]

Second a post from way back. Put the bell on a circuit NOT "protected" by a GFI.
Dedicated if you insist. the thing is activated by AIR pressure; no possible electrical hazard on the driveway! It's some odd anomaly due to the inductive load. Wire around it so it's connected as intended in 1950 and forget it.

 

[manwithtools]

Second a post from way back. Put the bell on a circuit NOT "protected" by a GFI. Dedicated if you insist. the thing is activated by AIR pressure; no possible electrical hazard on the driveway! It's some odd anomaly due to the inductive load. Wire around it so it's connected as intended in 1950 and forget it.

Exactly, this bell is air actuated and represents zero risk of human contact to it's circuitry. Mount it high up on the wall and put it on it's own circuit if you have to. It does not represent a hazard wired to to a non GFCI circuit. If you have have to have a working bell that's what you will need to do.

This is not a surprise that it's not working on the GFCI circuit any better than the first one.

 

[manwithtools]

Well, darn ...

I will contact Milton Bell, but either there's a design flaw, the same component is leaking, or these things don't work on a GFCI.

There is no component leaking. As I explained earlie,r the solenoid is inducing current flow into the circuit, that's what a GFI measures. It is no surprise this bell does not work on a GFCI. It's not a refined design with circuitry to suppress it's induced current effects, it's built pretty much the way they were when they were first introduced 70 plus years ago.

 

[justsam]

There is no excuse in today's world for producing a device that does not play nice with GFCI. There certainly are other devices that if there were not some form of suppression would induce a greater back emf.

To tell the person that just bought a new home or just finished his new code compliant garage he can not have one of these does not sound like clever marketing, nor does running a special non code compliant circuit just for the bell.

 

[manwithtools]

Maybe they don't care if you buy their bell or not. Belive it or not some companies don't care to sell everything to everyone...

 

[nsula_country]

GFCI's are over-rated as a general purpose circuit protection. There are applications that they have and will protect from harm or death. Pool pumps, pool lights, electric power washers, ect... Code or not, I do not agree that all receptacle circuits in a garage REQUIRE a GFCI. But, it is what is... I'm not even going to go into my personal feelings towards AFCI's...

I can name several devices that will not work on any GFCI. Even more examples that piss off an AFCI. Seems this device is now in that list. Deal breaker? Not for me. Heck, I'm even thinking of getting one of these now just for the cool factor!

ghlkal, enjoy your driveway bell. You and I both know that you are not going to cause personal or property damage by modifying or creating a circuit for this to operate on. Maybe like another member stated, plug it into a surge protecting power strip to filter it??

Keep us posted on how you set it up.

CT

 

[Lassen Forge]

Another example of old tech (even modern made old tech) made before all the safety devices made to protect you from yourself. I still laugh about the 1930's "industrial" plunger style light switches - every so often you'd use them you'd get a fat blue spark from the switch. New (very young) employee tried VERY hard to get this switch removed (mind you, it' d been in service 80 years and no one had been killed or bit yet) because he swore it was an OSHA hazard and was going to kill someone right away.

Bottom line - these bells, cool as they are, are INDUSTRIAL APPLIANCES designed in the 1930's, and not designed for home use. Just because you CAN buy them doesn't necessarily mean you SHOULD buy them for home use, nor does it mean the manufacturer has some responsibility to reengineer their product to work in your home because you want it to.

If it doesn't work on a GFCI Circuit, either make an isolator for it, redesign it yourself (just like granddad would do back in the 30's) so it works, or you may not be able to have it in your garage. Don't blame the manufacturer because their 1930's tech device is incompatible with your 2016 technology home. Otherwise it's like buying a 3�Ø 480v lathe from a machine shop auction and then demanding the seller convert it to 1Ø 234 volts because that's what's in your home garage because they should be made that way...

Me? I'd mount it high on the wall (like the originals), wire it up like a light bulb (maybe to its own breaker), run the rubber hose (like the originals were, down the wall and across the apron) and enjoy it.

 

[ghlkal]

All great comments guys.

I'm not paranoid about it not working on a GFCI circuit, I just find it strange that it doesn't.

I'll try using a surge suppressor. If that doesn't work, I'll pull a new circuit.

I'll enjoy the bell, and this has given me an electrical education

 

[Lassen Forge]

If you really decide it's too much of a risk for you, I know someone in NE California who would be happy to, er, um, "dispose" of it for you. Tho you'll then have to 'splain to the other half what happened to it... --giggles--

Me? I would mount it on the wall after painting it and maybe even putting it on a finished backboard, and revel in the "ding ding". Just make sure you have your windshield squeegie at the ready...

 

[ghlkal]

If you really decide it's too much of a risk for you, I know someone in NE California who would be happy to, er, um, "dispose" of it for you.

Thanks for the offer


I just returned from a conference. I have the bell plugged into a surge protector. I'll see what happens after a few days.

 

[nsula_country]

Sounds good. Report out if it filters the current imbalances out. Really, device is ok. Just a very dirty electrical signal it puts out. Like a noisy neighbor... LOL

CT

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Sounds good. Report out if it filters the current imbalances out. Really, device is ok. Just a very dirty electrical signal it puts out. Like a noisy neighbor... LOL

CT

A surge protector wont "filter out" anything. Thats the job of a noise filter which some surge suppressors also have such as the ones marketed for home theater systems..

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Seems like a good way to reduce your potential market in the future since most areas in the country today REQUIRE GFCI on ALL new home garage circuits.

I don't really think Milton worries too much about homeowners. That unit is designed for commercial garages/gas station driveways and as such, it is not required to be on a GFCI outlet unless that outlet is used by personell for the use of test equipment, electrical hand tools, portable lighting, etc.

Tommy

 

[justsam]

I don't really think Milton worries too much about homeowners. That unit is designed for commercial garages/gas station driveways and as such, it is not required to be on a GFCI outlet unless that outlet is used by personell for the use of test equipment, electrical hand tools, portable lighting, etc.

Tommy

Certainly Agree with you regarding commercial applications. I was thinking more of the nostalgia application such as in OP.

I certainly would not mind having one in my detached garage drive, but it has all GFCI breakers and I don't want it bad enough to run a "non compliant" circuit.

Perhaps as you and others have suggested it is not a market they are after. Even within the nostalgia market it would only be an issue for new compliant construction.

 

[Junkman]

IF you hear back from Milton, I'll bet they tell you it won't work on a GFCI.

I doubt that he will hear back from Milton. These are reproductions that are made in China. That should answer most of the questions....

 

[manwithtools]

He already heard back, the second one they sent him is no better than the first one when it comes to induced current.....

 

[ghlkal]

Time for a follow up post ...

Again, Milton says they haven't heard of any issues with the bells, although my original one certainly did.

I have a "surge suppressor" in line now (I don't know if the device has a noise suppressor or not) and so far the bell continues to work. I have _not_ "exercised" it by ringing it many times in a row.

The bell rings when I drive over the hose and it hasn't tripped the GFCI.

 

[nsula_country]

Awesome you figured out a means to power the device without upsetting the GFCI.

CT

 

[wmchurch]

I'm not sure if it's been discussed and I missed it, but when working with solenoids in DC circuits, "fly-back" voltage is a big concern. When the circuit is de-energized, the return of the actuator will generate electricity and will "fly-back" into the circuit. Sometimes this voltage can be quite high and can destroy components, so these circuits always have diodes. I could see why a GCFI outlet would not like that, if that was happening.

Question for you on the wiring of this bell, does it have a separate neutral and ground? And how old is the GFCI it's wired into?

Could be possible that the surge suppressor is choking or filtering this down, but I honestly can't say for sure.

Contrary to everyone's hatred towards GFCI's (based on a reputation rightly earned from earlier units back in the day) I think it should be possible to have them in any circuit and not cause a problem. I have a GFCI breaker powering a sub panel on my dock which runs a pair of 1/2HP 220V boat lift motors as well as a 20A charging circuit. I've yet to experience a trip that I didn't purposely cause (for testing). And, to be honest, I was a bit surprised at that.

I'm not saying it's not possible to have a **** GFCI, just that it depends on the unit and how well it's designed. The newer units should not suffer the same issues as some made over 10 years ago.