Torque Wrench vs Torque Sticks for wheels?

[zmotorsports]

Squiddle, that approach will tell you if they're torqued tight enough, but it won't tell you if they're over torqued.



I'm a strong proponent of a light tightening with a four-way (barely more than hand tightened), then a torque wrench to set the final torque.

Same here. Granted I do not work in a tire shop or merely do tires as my process would be a bit more time consuming, but I am a firm believer in proper torqueing of wheels. I run my lug nuts on with a speeder then reach for the torque wrench and usually creep up in at least two, sometimes three stages to the final torque. Personally I don't think it takes that long as I can run around the vehicle pretty quick but it definitely takes longer than merely zipping them on with a torque stick. I guess you have to ask yourself just how important properly torqueing wheels on is to you. To me it is quite important, one of my pet peeves actually (just one though).

Mike.

 

[WhiffySpark]

Proper use of a torque stick matters too. If you just hammer everyone on you'll be off. Should snugged them up then hit them full power after every nut is snug

 

[GeorgeFromPa]

This is the reason people have wheels fall off, rotors that are warped prematurely, etc.

ahhh bull chips. never had a problem and iv never even seen anyone use them.. been working longer then most of yous have been alive. and i never had a wheel fall off or anyone come back due to a warped rotor.

 

[Ramblin Man]

I run the lug nuts down with my impact, just a rat-a-tat. If it is a truck with 140-150 lbs. torque, I give it a rat-a tat tat. Never more. Then, let it down till the tires are touching the floor, and finish with a torque wrench.

I've never went over with my rat-a-tats, a man has to know his limitations with his rat-a-tats.

Edit: I have used torque sticks to run the lugs down before final torquing, but, I got tired of an extra tool in the mix I really didn't need.

 

[IsaacJ]

I use torque sticks professionally. Used a torque wrench for a while, and a fellow (30+ yr. veteran) tech recommended torque sticks. Way faster, never forget to torque with them. I've never had a wheel even close to falling off, and never had warped rotors (I have had to repair the neighborhood tire store's warped rotors. They use the "gun it and walk away" method)

One note. you must be sensible with the torque stick. don't sit there and hammer on it for a full minute, run it down easy, and once it's seated then give it the beans. The inertia of the high speed impact can overtorque from the rotational force. They are not idiot-proof, But I love em.

 

[rustbucket5]

most old timers just impact them on and wont change because they have never personally seen a problem, i however dont agree. i just use a torque wrench after snugging them up on mode one of my electric impact( which puts them at about 50ftlbs) i bought a set of torque sticks but my electric impact is too strong for them.

 

[Marcm157]

The torque sticks work much better with PVC air lines.

I had a feeling someone was going to go there...

 

[gsingh]

On customers cars I run it in with the gun at low and then use a torque wrench for final torque. This way if something happened, at least im covered.

 

[sberry]

I run them with a gun is 2 stages after common penetrating spray lube. Run them up slowly then snug and come back for a tighten pass with the gun set on 1 for car wheels, do this while watching the socket rotation and last set I check had 18 within 5%, one 10 hi and one 10 low.
A bump tighter wouldn't cause me much loss of sleep but I don't want them zipped on dry and fast stick or not. I am wholly with Adam and others on this, agree about industry and mfg. My old Snap wrench manual made in 30 states,,,,,, all values are for clean lightly lubed threads. There is all kind of egghead numbers to this but simply cant tell when a bolt quits turning due to friction when its dry.
I was at a concrete supplier where wheels were coming loose, dipsticks were not oiling cause they worried they going to come loose, some logic that is from some dumb fuk but all it took was a can of spray. I also am not one for that messy ****, a can of that goes a long way in my place but the pen spray we buy by the case.

 

[sberry]

On customers cars I run it in with the gun at low and then use a torque wrench for final torque. This way if something happened, at least im covered.

How would this cover you in the event a wheel fell off?

 

[sberry]

If anyone thinks everyone that works on cars does this any where near right they are deluded, watched a guy at a tire store do one the other day, zipped it off and on fast and in one pass. It probably worked just fine but spooks me a bit when I think this guy does dozens of these daily as well as thousands like him. .

 

[jn50308401]

Tighten until the stud snaps and back it off a quarter turn.. guttentight
I'd use a torque wrench on my own vehicle. If I was doing 20 tire rotations a day, I'd have a hell of a nice set of torque sticks. They are a time saver tool, just like impact air tools, faster work, more money.
For a home gamer, a torque wrench makes more sense to me.
What I do when I take wheels off is gun the lug nuts down, just snug, let the car down, torque the lugs, check tire pressure(if you have air why not use it?), Repeat around the car. It's OCD, but I have down it this way for a while now and it's pretty seemless to me.





Sent from my KFSOWI using Tapatalk

 

[Nick Danger]

The local Discount Tire franchise uses a stick while the car is in the air and finishes with a torque wrench after the car is down. The franchise owner has made it clear that if anyone doesn't do it that way, they're fired.

My mechanic demonstrated how he could use his gun to torque my lug nuts to 80-90 foot pounds by feel. I was impressed. He said, "I've been doing this for 35 years."

I'm an amateur. I'll use a torque wrench.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

IR2235 torques my wheels. Just don't be a dummy, and make sure mating surfaces are clean.



I used a torque wrench in the past, stopped for the following reasons:

1) My gun has yet to have a single lug-nut loose. Torquing the wheels wasn't doing anything, just going around clicking the mech. Most tire shops opperate this way, fwiw. Very few guys are properly torquing up to spec, rather, they just make sure it hit "minimum".

2) Cost. Quality torque wrenches are expensive. I'm not wearing out a $200 wrench, clicking wheels. It is calibrated and in the box, waiting for actually torque sensitive fasteners (head-bolts, timing belt ensioners, m6 ****** pan bolts, etc.).




Thus, if you want to properly torque wheels, you need a high quality torque wrench. Actually, you need 2, since may be out for calibration while a car is in the bay. I'm paying for shipping to and from the calibration facility, plus any work/repairs performed. The shop is not paying for this. The shop may supply a torque wrench, which I must hunt down on the bottom the lube-techs cart.

Call me a hack, but my wheels don't fall off.

BTW: I've seen more than a few wheels fall off, after torque-stick usage and 2 guys torquing all the wheels. Clean your hubs kids.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Any idea how many foot pounds of force it takes to warp a rotor?


I've heard this for years, never seen it, or heard of it outside of theory. Wouldn't the hub surface require serious imperfections to force/load the rotor hat to flex that much? That, or wildly skewed torque between lugs? Maybe 500 ft/lbs on one lug, and the rest at 65?

 

[akalian]

I have a torque stick for that

I use torque sticks everyday

By the way, I thought there was no such thing as warped rotors?

Good article debunking Warped Rotors:

http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/-warped-brake-disc-and-other-myths

 

[zmotorsports]

Any idea how many foot pounds of force it takes to warp a rotor?


I've heard this for years, never seen it, or heard of it outside of theory. Wouldn't the hub surface require serious imperfections to force/load the rotor hat to flex that much? That, or wildly skewed torque between lugs? Maybe 500 ft/lbs on one lug, and the rest at 65?

The biggest immediate issue I see with over torquing wheels upon the initial installation is stressing and/or breaking studs. Our Jeep club President just had a very close call when he had tires rotated on his Jeep prior to a club run. The run was out of town and he was flat-towing his Jeep behind his motorhome when a car came up alongside him honking and pointing to the rear. He started to move over to the side of the road to stop and take a look when the left rear tire of his Jeep went rolling past him down the interstate. Snapped on three studs and the remaining two must have been wobbling so severely that they stripped the threads right off of them as the nuts pulled off and damaged the hell out of those two bolt holes in the wheel. We can only assume they tightened them too tight when they rotated them just prior to leaving.

Mike.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Realistically, one over tightening isn't going to just shear the studs one day.


It's typically a lifetime of over tightening, then stretched threads, plus a customer whom refuses to replace them. Thus, to get it the hell out of the building after performing a $20 LOF/Rotate, the techs gun them on hard, to overcome the stretching threads, eventually, they break. My experience, anyways.

 

[zmotorsports]

Realistically, one over tightening isn't going to just shear the studs one day.


It's typically a lifetime of over tightening, then stretched threads, plus a customer whom refuses to replace them. Thus, to get it the hell out of the building after performing a $20 LOF/Rotate, the techs gun them on hard, to overcome the stretching threads, eventually, they break. My experience, anyways.

Agreed, but my point was the same shop had been rattling them on for the past couple of years and had they been torqued on correctly they may not have been damaged. No way to prove it but I wouldn't be surprised if when he picked it up and hooked it up to his motorhome it already had at least one or two studs snapped off.

Mike.

 

[WhiffySpark]

Realistically, one over tightening isn't going to just shear the studs one day.


It's typically a lifetime of over tightening, then stretched threads, plus a customer whom refuses to replace them. Thus, to get it the hell out of the building after performing a $20 LOF/Rotate, the techs gun them on hard, to overcome the stretching threads, eventually, they break. My experience, anyways.

That makes too much sense. I've only seen snapped studs from cross threading lugnut. And when I get to remove them they snap.

Ive seen plenty of wrong lugnut, cheap *** customers, etc. It's always the techs fault.

We Installed a timing cover gasket and then the guys brake lights didn't work the next week. That's our fault ? Apparently

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Good article debunking Warped Rotors:

http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/-warped-brake-disc-and-other-myths

That moment when, your rotors exhibit irregular lateral runout.

http://oppositelock.kinja.com/warped-rotors-and-semantics-1764633836

 

[WhiffySpark]

Agreed, but my point was the same shop had been rattling them on for the past couple of years and had they been torqued on correctly they may not have been damaged. No way to prove it but I wouldn't be surprised if when he picked it up and hooked it up to his motorhome it already had at least one or two studs snapped off.

Mike.

I think a more likely scenario is they were left loose. Especially if he towed it from shop

 

[2ndGearRubber]

I think a more likely scenario is they were left loose. Especially if he towed it from shop

What's horrifying is the idea that someone may strap a jeep to a motor home, tow the thing, with broken studs on the wheels.

"The engine isn't running, so it's not making any torque on the wheels. The 3 studs will be more than enough".

 

[zmotorsports]

I think a more likely scenario is they were left loose. Especially if he towed it from shop

Thought about that but the bolt holes in the wheel looked too perfect. Just the two were messed up the other three looked perfect, that is why I suspect they broke them off before he picked it up.

He did drive it a short distance from the tire shop to his house before hooking it up to his motorhome, he said it didn't feel any different. Again, no way of proving anything, merely suspicion.

Mike.

 

[johninct]

Realistically, one over tightening isn't going to just shear the studs one day.


It's typically a lifetime of over tightening, then stretched threads, plus a customer whom refuses to replace them. Thus, to get it the hell out of the building after performing a $20 LOF/Rotate, the techs gun them on hard, to overcome the stretching threads, eventually, they break. My experience, anyways.

When we moved up from a cheap impact wrench to a Snap-On IM510 27 years ago, the first wheel I put on I snapped the studs like nothing. When I got my Snap-On 3850 cordless impact my friend thought it was a toy and snapped the first stud he put it on.

 

[928'er]

putting wheels on for 40 years and iv never used either. just gun it up and walk away
time is money

You are never touching ANYTHING I own....

 

[WhiffySpark]

Thought about that but the bolt holes in the wheel looked too perfect. Just the two were messed up the other three looked perfect, that is why I suspect they broke them off before he picked it up.

He did drive it a short distance from the tire shop to his house before hooking it up to his motorhome, he said it didn't feel any different. Again, no way of proving anything, merely suspicion.

Mike.

May have just been bad luck. I personally rock the steering wheel back and forth hard when I pull a car out. That way I would know if I left one loose. I have a pattern I follow on every car and I don't stop until every nut is torqued down. Just my way of doing things.

 

[Fedwrench]

I always love reading the torque stick threads.

Time is money in most shops so, torque sticks offer speed and are a little better than gun & run. There are variables such as the impact wrench being used, air supply, how old and tired the torque stick is, & the operator that affect stick accuracy.

A torque stick will never be as accurate as a torque wrench. It's only advantage is speed.

Most Late model vehicle rotors ****. they're varying levels of Chinese **** for the most part. Rotor hats can warp but, many brake issues involving pedal pulsations often come from excessive parallelism (uneven rotor thickness) than being warped but, that's another argument. Bench mounted brake lathes are pretty much worthless on today's front wheel drive vehicles. After all you're machining the rotor to your brake lathe and not your car's suspension. A pro cut on car brake lathe is your best bet but, back to torque sticks. People either love or hate torque sticks, there's no middle ground. I only use them for wheels. The torque wrench crowd is only worried about being sued or aren't in a hurry.

 

[NoMoreGreen]

putting wheels on for 40 years and iv never used either. just gun it up and walk away
time is money

This is why my vehicles will never see a shop.

 

[NoMoreGreen]

ahhh bull chips. never had a problem and iv never even seen anyone use them.. been working longer then most of yous have been alive. and i never had a wheel fall off or anyone come back due to a warped rotor.

Because mechanics like you offer some bull explanation and get yourself out of fixing your wrong doing.

The last time I paid a mechanic I paid him to put in new axel bearings and axle shafts. 2 days later I took it back and told him the axle seal was leaking again. Took it apart and showed me it was leaking due to wear on the shaft. not his fault. Funny I wanted the shaft replaced for that same wear, in the same spot.

I ended up learning a $1000 lesson.

 

[BDT/NWMN]

Thinking "Torque Stick" would make an interesting screen name..


Torque wrench, lug wrench, 4 way, impact wrench: Four devices that can be used to screw up a wheel install if You don't understand, or CARE about doing a proper install..

Use one or the other if you choose; but ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Adam.C]

Any idea how many foot pounds of force it takes to warp a rotor?


I've heard this for years, never seen it, or heard of it outside of theory. Wouldn't the hub surface require serious imperfections to force/load the rotor hat to flex that much? That, or wildly skewed torque between lugs? Maybe 500 ft/lbs on one lug, and the rest at 65?

No. I've heard multiple theories about this. I think rotors swell from heat, hard stop, leaving your foot on the brake, heat gets trapped by the pads etc.

First, realize rotors get super hot. Next, realize lugs are just really strong springs. If those springs are pulling differently because they were not torqued correctly, when the disk heats up, it will move to the weaker sprinters, over and over again. If it cools fast enough it could stay that way permanently. It will also wear unevenly when it is hot and the lugs aren't all torqued the same.

Engineers like me would tell you two things:
1) try to achieve the target torque to ensure you have the correct preload (spring rate)
2) try to get all the torques THE SAME.

One last word for our pros. ALL manuals specify lug torques. If you aren't torquing lugs and something wheel related goes wrong, you could be liable. To flagrantly disregard a spec that could be considered safety critical, regardless of what you've done for 30 years, how you were taught, or even what your boss says, is just plain stupid. The jury won't understand the science. They will just see a ******* cutting corners on safety for his own personal gain. Case closed.

 

[ZAPPER68]

A torque stick will never be as accurate as a torque wrench. It's only advantage is speed.

True. However, I haven't seen any comments about calibrating torques wrenches. I am in the aviation industry and our torque wrenches HAVE to be calibrated annually. Just saying....

 

[BrokewrenchLS1]

Time is money in most shops so, torque sticks offer speed and are a little better than gun & run...The torque wrench crowd is only worried about being sued or aren't in a hurry.

That sort of falls flat when it only takes an extra 1-2 minutes to hit every lug with a torque wrench.

 

[dnschmidt]

Actually, the torque stick should be more accurate than any torque wrench as it's based upon the hard and fast physical properties of a metal alloy. The only variable is the diameter of the torque stick and with modern CNC machines this is good to 0.0001 of an inch. If the spring steel from which the torque stick is made is right there is very little that can go wrong. A lot of things can and do go out of whack in a torque wrench.

 

[SMKS]

Good article debunking Warped Rotors:

http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/-warped-brake-disc-and-other-myths

This article is problematic and offers limited usefulness in the real world.

On street cars, a frequent cause of pulsation is runout. The excessive runout causes the rotor to wear unevenly, leading to thickness variation and pulsation when the brakes are applied.

That article largely glosses over common causes of brake pulsation and focuses on pad deposits. While pad deposits can be an issue, it's far from the only reason brakes can pulsate.

 

[gte718p]

Actually, the torque stick should be more accurate than any torque wrench as it's based upon the hard and fast physical properties of a metal alloy. The only variable is the diameter of the torque stick and with modern CNC machines this is good to 0.0001 of an inch. If the spring steel from which the torque stick is made is right there is very little that can go wrong. A lot of things can and do go out of whack in a torque wrench.

In theory yes, but here is nothing hard and fast about physical properties of real metal alloys. Physical properties change with composition. Did you get the mix exact today or did you add and extra gram of silicon? Physical properties change with process. Was the oven the exact temp, was it in the exact same amount of time? Physical properties change with them. Is it 85 deg but the design was speced at 75 deg? Most importantly physical properties change with built up stress. If you over load a torque stick even once it no longer is a its designed spec. It is probably minor but it is not exact.

All of the same things apply to a torque wrenches. The difference is the calibration and certification process.

 

[gte718p]

This article is problematic and offers limited usefulness in the real world.

On street cars, a frequent cause of pulsation is runout. The excessive runout causes the rotor to wear unevenly, leading to thickness variation and pulsation when the brakes are applied.

That article largely glosses over common causes of brake pulsation and focuses on pad deposits. While pad deposits can be an issue, it's far from the only reason brakes can pulsate.

The major issue making it irrelevant to this thread is the qualification:

With one qualifier, presuming that the hub and wheel flange are flat and in good condition and that the wheel bolts or hat mounting hardware is in good condition, installed correctly and tightened uniformly and in the correct order to the recommended torque specification,

 

[2ndGearRubber]

That sort of falls flat when it only takes an extra 1-2 minutes to hit every lug with a torque wrench.

2 min per car X 10 cars per day, 20 min per day.

20 min per day X 5 days per week, 100min per week, 1 hour and 40 minutes.

100min per week X 52 weeks per year, 5200 min per year, 86.6 hours, 3.61 DAYS per year.


3.6 DAYS.



I used to use hand tools. Now air/electric is used on anything within reach. Time, time, time, time, time. Time, it's all I got to sell, so making the most of it when there's more work waiting matters.

 

[Amann34]

Dad?

Lmfao!