Using Skytrak/Telehandler on slab.

[Radix2]

I am building a Garage workshop combo, the garage part of the slab is 40x50. 4" concrete, Pex tubes for heat, 2-4 in of 25psi foam (build thread is coming !)

The builder planned on using a Skytrak for various things like raising 2nd story walls, setting some trusses, lifting material.

He insisted it is completely normal to drive up on the slab to accomplish these things - my comments were - don't crack it and don't let the thing leak oil on it.

Well after one day of them messing around with it I can report that the slab is not cracked - but the stupid thing of course got oil everywhere. And just about as bad, the tires left a ridiculous amount of marks that not even scrubbing will get off.

So needless to say I am not a happy camper. Now I look up the weight and see the thing weighs 21,000! pounds.

So I ask the board - does or did anyone use a skytrak or telehandler on their slab during construction ? - if so, how do you protect it. ?


And obviously this slab is designed for normal automotive use, not heavy equipment...

 

[MJD1]

That skytrax probably has less weight per square inch of tire contact than a typical car or truck.

 

[aircommuter]

I use them on a regular basis once the slab has 14 days to cure. The the tire marks usually come off with a pressure washer or some TSP.

 

[Cyberbear]

Make the skytrack guy have the blemishes removed before final payment is made. I opted for a high lift crane at my job site for lifting the trusses and stack of mezzanine plywood in place. They did this work far away from outside the slab, so no problem.

 

[Radix2]

That skytrax probably has less weight per square inch of tire contact than a typical car or truck.

Well, looking at the operating specs, it says the tires are 65psi and the max loaded ground pressure is 93 Psi. so I would say it is probably 2-3 times more than a normal car or truck.


Some pictures - while trying to clean it up tonite, will see how it looks when it dries in the morning. I would guess a good 50-75 oil spots from 1/2in up to 4in in diameter...

 

[manwithtools]

Lazy SOB. They should have done this work from outside the garage and stayed the hell off your new concrete. I agree, no final payment until the concrete is spotless. I worry about the oil on fresh concrete if it was not sealed yet.

 

[readhead]

Our Skytrak didn't leak but I had a policy that no equipment but a small man lift was allowed on the slab. The OP is paying for new stuff and the GC has no regard for protecting the new work. I would tell him to keep the machine off the slab and to have it cleaned immediately. Let him know that the money has stopped until the damage is taken care of.

He knew it was leaking when he drove it on the slab and didn't care. This kind of work makes the rest of us look bad.

 

[Short Round]

yep, on him to pressure wash it spotless.

 

[matt_i]

If you buy some cans of brake cleaner and use them liberally with the straw like a mini pressure washer it will sometimes degrease the oil to the point the slab is clean again.

I had a forklift that leaked like mad from the main lift cylinder, which I eventually sold, but while I had it, I used a lot of cans of brake clean.

 

[LXCam]

The tire marks will come out. The oil leaks are a problem though. Make him diaper the leaks and he can also rent tire covers so they don't mark your concrete.

 

[MJD1]

Well, looking at the operating specs, it says the tires are 65psi and the max loaded ground pressure is 93 Psi. so I would say it is probably 2-3 times more than a normal car or truck.


Some pictures - while trying to clean it up tonite, will see how it looks when it dries in the morning. I would guess a good 50-75 oil spots from 1/2in up to 4in in diameter...

Big difference in weight depending on what is on the forks. What they are using it for weight is pretty minimal. Either way your biggest issue is rubber marks and leaks. If you didn't pay upfront, you control all the cards.

 

[Zeke]

I wonder if they had spread sawdust over the slab if this would have been as bad. Anyway, concrete has a way of cleaning itself with use. Take it easy with the cleaning. Me, I'd wet it down and pour Tide all over it and broom it, let it sit, broom it and rinse with a hose. I don't like the way pressure washers leave tracks. I don't care who(m?) is using it, they leave tracks and sometimes blow off the cream leaving the aggregate.

 

[Roddyo]

Yes running a SkyTrack on the slab is standard operating procedure. At least where I live. If you measure the contact area of the tire on the floor the lift is probably less PSI that a diesel pickup on stock tires.

There is a reason why it's hard to find good contractors.

 

[justanengineer]

Given the size of your building I'm not surprised the contractor is using a tele handler inside. JMO but I wouldn't worry, both tire marks and oil drips are easy to clean and the machine shouldn't damage the concrete if it was poured correctly. You should be giving the concrete a few months to set up before doing flooring anyway, the marks will probably be gone naturally before then.

Unless this is going to be the last project you EVER need to hire out I'd suggest being careful not to mention withholding payment for any reason. The trades in any given area are a small world and word gets around quickly regarding who is/isnt a PITA customer. Many of the fellas here are, hence the ridiculous rates they pay for work done.

 

[Radix2]

Ok, here is after round 1

Scrubbed with dawn dishwashing soap, greased lighting, and purple power. No effect on oil, minor effect on tire marks.

As far as the contractor knowing it leaked, it is a rental unit that just showed up, so he probably didn't know - at the same time he didn't do anything to find out either. He made some comment that the rain should wash off the tracks....

My bigger concern is still about the weight - the slab is poured to the outside of the stem walls - so the corners /edge is just a 3.5 in thick layer of concrete sitting on foam. I built up the approach with crushed limestone to protect the edge until a concrete approach is poured, but I had no idea that each of these tires has the load of an entire extended cab truck..

So feeling lucky that the damage is only cosmetic at this point.

 

[Radix2]

I use them on a regular basis once the slab has 14 days to cure. The the tire marks usually come off with a pressure washer or some TSP.

Big difference in weight depending on what is on the forks. What they are using it for weight is pretty minimal. Either way your biggest issue is rubber marks and leaks. If you didn't pay upfront, you control all the cards.

Yes running a SkyTrack on the slab is standard operating procedure. At least where I live. If you measure the contact area of the tire on the floor the lift is probably less PSI that a diesel pickup on stock tires.

There is a reason why it's hard to find good contractors.

Given the size of your building I'm not surprised the contractor is using a tele handler inside. JMO but I wouldn't worry, both tire marks and oil drips are easy to clean and the machine shouldn't damage the concrete if it was poured correctly. You should be giving the concrete a few months to set up before doing flooring anyway, the marks will probably be gone naturally before then.

Unless this is going to be the last project you EVER need to hire out I'd suggest being careful not to mention withholding payment for any reason. The trades in any given area are a small world and word gets around quickly regarding who is/isnt a PITA customer. Many of the fellas here are, hence the ridiculous rates they pay for work done.

Thanks, I'll post up a detail of the approaches where I am specificially concerned about the weight breaking the floor.

But good to know that these thin residential slabs can take 20,000 lb machines..

I don't think there will be any need for threats to get this addressed, my approach will be to put the risk back onto him in writing if the thing is going to allowed up there anymore - I can't imagine what the cost would be to demo and repour even a portion of the floor with all the pex in it - so we will see what his confidence level is. I should not be the one taking the risk for his operating choices. And while I have used the word contractor, this is being put up by a builder, with all the subs his responsibility.


Also, they will in any case need a crane to set the upper story trusses - given that, they should probably rethink the building sequence to allow the crane to do all the overslab work IMO.

 

[aircommuter]

Concrete strength would be at least 2000 psi, after 7 days unless they supplied a very sub-standard mix. The soil and prep below is often the weakest link. I would use solvent, paint thinner or lacquer thinner before I tried soap. One person mentioned tide and that works mainly because it contains phosphates, that is why I had mentioned TSP. I used a similar lift that I own on my shop and the tire marks were gone before we got finished with the building. I also have a forklift I keep in the shop and it has solid tires, so likely more psi than the others. It is hard dealing with a crane on metal sheet roofing panels, I have a 23' high roof.

 

[TMcCay]

Do you plan on epoxying the floor later? The hydraulic oil is hard to get out once it sits on the concrete. It may give you some adhesion issues later if you plan on putting any kind of finish on top of the surface. Something to think about.

 

[My Old Tools]

Nobody is going to demo a slab for tire tracks and oil spots. If you take him to court you'll lose. It's a concrete floor in a shop. Get a grip. Rain erases tire tracks on my drive. As for oil, cat litter a couple of times will likely draw it out. If not, try baking soda.

 

[readhead]

Maybe I'm missing the point. Why would the customer have to clean up after an irresponsible contractor?

 

[manwithtools]

Maybe I'm missing the point. Why would the customer have to clean up after an irresponsible contractor?

Yeah! We have a winner! I agree 100%..

 

[Radix2]

Nobody is going to demo a slab for tire tracks and oil spots. If you take him to court you'll lose. It's a concrete floor in a shop. Get a grip. Rain erases tire tracks on my drive. As for oil, cat litter a couple of times will likely draw it out. If not, try baking soda.

Nobody is talking about demoing for oil and marks. The slab looks like this after one day of moving material around -say 3-4 trips. They plan on at least 30 trips over the next few weeks to raise walls and set trusses - it isn't hard to imagine the amount of oil and tracks after all that. And then there is risk to the approach area breaking up.

So the premise should be -we see what we see so far - they need to assume the costs and risks for all further damages, it is not some unforeseen accident now.
The ttracks are the least of my concern, I could grind them off as a last resort - the oil is a lot harder to get out, and how do I get made whole if the driver bounces up the ramp too fast and cracks up the first 3 feet?

Hence my question here to see how this has gone for others.

 

[lakeroadster]

I'd be pissed off too. Contractors... some are truly a piece of work.

When did they pour the slab... and what strength mix is it?

Same GC poured the concrete, as is operating the 10 ton piece of equipment on a 4" slab?

 

[Majordisorder]

I have a similar size slab in my personal shop, with pex, and 5" thick. I also own a Skytrack 6036 and refrained from taking it on the slab during construction. As a subcontractor I would only do it if it was ok'd by the contractor. Doesn't seem like a good idea and I hope your slab came through it ok. Putting 65psi foam in front of the drive in openings was typical of a contractor I worked with so thats what I did in mine.

 

[Radix2]

I'd be pissed off too. Contractors... some are truly a piece of work.

When did they pour the slab... and what strength mix is it?

Same GC poured the concrete, as is operating the 10 ton piece of equipment on a 4" slab?

I have a similar size slab in my personal shop, with pex, and 5" thick. I also own a Skytrack 6036 and refrained from taking it on the slab during construction. As a subcontractor I would only do it if it was ok'd by the contractor. Doesn't seem like a good idea and I hope your slab came through it ok. Putting 65psi foam in front of the drive in openings was typical of a contractor I worked with so thats what I did in mine.

The concrete is close to two months old now so the strength is there -it is a nice clean no filler 35-4000 psi mix. We had ideal cool damp weather for good cure.

Here is my concern on the weight - obviously the concrete is in no danger from the psi loading of the tires. The issue is the openings where the absolute load is confined to a limited amount of concrete and 25psi foam. Take a square foot of concrete and ignore for a moment the load transfer to the surrounding material. At the edge there is no material in one direction anyway, and the way these openings are formed there isn't any for the first six inches on one side either.... So 144 sq inches x 25 psi = 3600 lbs before needing to rely on strength from the surrounding concrete.

This machine has 5000+ lbs per tire and maybe another 1000 lbs carting a bunk of OSB....

The 65psi foam is great idea - too late now though, might help the next guy so it is good you mentioned it.

 

[Radix2]

Darn, can't upload multiple pictures from the iPad

I am thinking of making a relief cut at the inside edge of the slab as a safety against any future possible crack. Inside corners are a hazard anyway.

No cracks so far, so I want to keep it that way.

 

[coldh2o]

...word gets around quickly regarding who is/isnt a PITA customer.

A customer who wants the contractor to clean up the mess he made is a PITA? I'd be glad to be boycotted by a contractor with that attitude.

 

[wssix99]

The tire marks will come out. The oil leaks are a problem though. Make him diaper the leaks and he can also rent tire covers so they don't mark your concrete.

+1 ^ This is it. The top layer of cement on the slab will wear off along with the tire marks. The oil soaks in like a sponge...

Do you plan on epoxying the floor later? The hydraulic oil is hard to get out once it sits on the concrete. It may give you some adhesion issues later if you plan on putting any kind of finish on top of the surface. Something to think about.

^ I'd insist they spring for a professional epoxy coating. This treatment comes with shot blasting the surface so the epoxy will adhere. My spray insulation guys cleaned their guns out on my slab and left a horrible stain. Unfortunately, I already had the epoxy planned on my dime. ...My wife felt strongly that I should let the issue go, so they left my property with their lives....


No worries about the weight. Concrete floors only take a beating from industrial trucks with hard tires. The pneumatic tires are gentler and spread the weight/stress out across the contact patch with the stresses being largely a function of the tire pressure. As long as the tire pressure of the telehandler is close to being between the 35 psi of a car and the 90 psi of a moving van you are golden slab stress. (The heaver loads will force the tire to compress more, giving a larger contact patch, and further dispersing the load.) If you really want to calculate it out, this document should help: http://scholarworks.rit.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1435&context=article (I honestly haven't read it. I've been out in the sun all day, have had a beer, and think that I'd rather have another instead. I'm quite confident you can do the same on this front.

)

 

[justanengineer]

A customer who wants the contractor to clean up the mess he made is a PITA? I'd be glad to be boycotted by a contractor with that attitude.

No, a customer threatening to withhold payment, making demands, or otherwise riding your *** on an ONGOING job is a PITA. There are polite ways to approach this, telling someone they're not getting paid until you've nitpicked everydamthing isn't one of them.

Scrubbed with dawn dishwashing soap, greased lighting, and purple power. No effect on oil, minor effect on tire marks.

A buffer and scouring powder has been the common method in most shops I've worked in, quite a few with bare concrete floors.

 

[scissorman]

I'm an equipment mechanic for a construction rental company. There are diapers that can be installed on the machine to protect from any oil leakage onto your concrete and there are also tire socks available to keep from making marks on your concrete as well and both should have been used if you voiced your concerns ahead of time.

 

[scissorman]

+1 ^ This is it. The top layer of cement on the slab will wear off along with the tire marks. The oil soaks in like a sponge...




^ I'd insist they spring for a professional epoxy coating. This treatment comes with shot blasting the surface so the epoxy will adhere. My spray insulation guys cleaned their guns out on my slab and left a horrible stain. Unfortunately, I already had the epoxy planned on my dime. ...My wife felt strongly that I should let the issue go, so they left my property with their lives....


No worries about the weight. Concrete floors only take a beating from industrial trucks with hard tires. The pneumatic tires are gentler and spread the weight/stress out across the contact patch with the stresses being largely a function of the tire pressure. As long as the tire pressure of the telehandler is close to being between the 35 psi of a car and the 90 psi of a moving van you are golden slab stress. (The heaver loads will force the tire to compress more, giving a larger contact patch, and further dispersing the load.) If you really want to calculate it out, this document should help: http://scholarworks.rit.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1435&context=article (I honestly haven't read it. I've been out in the sun all day, have had a beer, and think that I'd rather have another instead. I'm quite confident you can do the same on this front.

)

Every telehandler we own at work and every one i've ever seen use foam filled tires. Stop and imagine what could happen if a telehandler with a load on the forks had a tire blow or even leak down quickly, they are foam filled for this reason.

 

[Roddyo]

No, a customer threatening to withhold payment, making demands, or otherwise riding your *** on an ONGOING job is a PITA. There are polite ways to approach this, telling someone they're not getting paid until you've nitpicked everydamthing isn't one of them.

Well said. There is a very simple solution to this and making the contractor a ******* post isn't it.

 

[lakeroadster]

... a customer threatening to withhold payment, making demands, or otherwise riding your *** on an ONGOING job is a PITA. There are polite ways to approach this, telling someone they're not getting paid until you've nitpicked everydamthing isn't one of them.

What you call a PITA customer is merely a customer that is engaged in his project. Would you prefer he wait until the end of the project, and hit you blindsided with the, as you call it, nitpicking?

The only thing the customer has, to ensure the GC does the job correct, is holding back the money.

 

[Radix2]

What you call a PITA customer is merely a customer that is engaged in his project. Would you prefer he wait until the end of the project, and hit you blindsided with the, as you call it, nitpicking?

The only thing the customer has, to ensure the GC does the job correct, is holding back the money.

Interesting to hear the different takes on the same situation..

I think it is good for both sides to get issues out in the open as they come up. On this issue, I expressed concern in the form of asking the GC if it was normal to drive a skytrak up on the slab to work, he said it was, I said ok then, but don't let that thing leak oil all over the place or crack my approaches. He said of course not....

Ok, so now after a single day up there we see there is oil stains from one end to the other. I also took the time to find out the thing weighs over 10 tons. There is probably 2-3 weeks of work to go in this area.

So it seems clear to me that I need a new agreement from the GC on what happens from here on - specifically if he continues to stain the slab or damages it some other way. It seems as though my initial ok has shifted all the risk to me and that is not acceptable. The situation is fairly minor at this point - if I ignore it, there will be a solid path of oil from one end to the other, and I feel a reasonable probability of breakage.

The GC will already be bringing a crane to set upper floor trusses, so it is a trade off for him to use the skytrak for some items to reduce crane time. And that is fine, I want him to make as much as he can while delivering a quality job. But right now, there is no stated cost for him to mess up the slab to weigh against the crane time. That will change in Monday.

I think he needs to agree that he will pay for cleaning and up to epoxy finishing the floor if cleaning is not possible. And agree to whatever repair or replacement is needed to remediate any damage to the concrete if it should occur. At that point he has the proper information to decide how he wants to continue construction. My guess is that at that point he will decide it is better to just keep the skytrak off the slab, but at least it is a fair open eyes deal for both of us.

 

[Roddyo]

Interesting to hear the different takes on the same situation..

I think it is good for both sides to get issues out in the open as they come up. On this issue, I expressed concern in the form of asking the GC if it was normal to drive a skytrak up on the slab to work, he said it was, I said ok then, but don't let that thing leak oil all over the place or crack my approaches. He said of course not....

Ok, so now after a single day up there we see there is oil stains from one end to the other. I also took the time to find out the thing weighs over 10 tons. There is probably 2-3 weeks of work to go in this area.

So it seems clear to me that I need a new agreement from the GC on what happens from here on - specifically if he continues to stain the slab or damages it some other way. It seems as though my initial ok has shifted all the risk to me and that is not acceptable. The situation is fairly minor at this point - if I ignore it, there will be a solid path of oil from one end to the other, and I feel a reasonable probability of breakage.

The GC will already be bringing a crane to set upper floor trusses, so it is a trade off for him to use the skytrak for some items to reduce crane time. And that is fine, I want him to make as much as he can while delivering a quality job. But right now, there is no stated cost for him to mess up the slab to weigh against the crane time. That will change in Monday.

I think he needs to agree that he will pay for cleaning and up to epoxy finishing the floor if cleaning is not possible. And agree to whatever repair or replacement is needed to remediate any damage to the concrete if it should occur. At that point he has the proper information to decide how he wants to continue construction. My guess is that at that point he will decide it is better to just keep the skytrak off the slab, but at least it is a fair open eyes deal for both of us.

You might Want to consider paying a little extra as this is a "special project". If the tire tracks bother you offer the rent the boots. The SkyTrack being there is probably to your benefit on the overall cost of the project by eliminating crane time. If you had rather have the crane there could be additional costs. Is this a big enough problem that your willing to bear the additional costs?

I agree with you on the oil even if it will clean up. If the machine is a rental the company should be drying the machine up. If your going to press the contractor on this get the rental company involved to service their equipment.

Building something is a lot like a marriage. Unexpected problems arise that may or may not be either parties fault but they still have to be dealt with. A little flexibility and a willingness to look at the problem from the other parties prospective goes a long way.

 

[readhead]

Easiest solution right now is to not allow the machine on the slab. The contractor may have to work around the outside but he should not have assumed that it would be okay to drive on the slab. Since he won't be on the slab he can bring in someone to clean up while they continue to work.

 

[manwithtools]

You might Want to consider paying a little extra as this is a "special project". If the tire tracks bother you offer the rent the boots. The SkyTrack being there is probably to your benefit on the overall cost of the project by eliminating crane time. If you had rather have the crane there could be additional costs. Is this a big enough problem that your willing to bear the additional costs?

I agree with you on the oil even if it will clean up. If the machine is a rental the company should be drying the machine up. If your going to press the contractor on this get the rental company involved to service their equipment.

Building something is a lot like a marriage. Unexpected problems arise that may or may not be either parties fault but they still have to be dealt with. A little flexibility and a willingness to look at the problem from the other parties prospective goes a long way.

If this is fixed price project, it's not the OP's problem if it takes a crane or a D9 bulldozer to complete the project to his satisfaction. He has zero obligation to pay more for the contractor to provide a satisfactory product (unless the scope of work changes).

Oil drops are the responsibility of the contractor and his subs. Don't care if he owns the equipment or rents it, it's his responsibility to provide a clean surface on the owners new concrete. The OP has no need to talk to the equipment rental company. I'd be furious about this, while I agree that working together to solve the problem is the easiest path to success, sometimes you have to be clear about your expectations.

Let's not forget that the OP is paying someone to do this work, if he wanted to rent tire covers and diapers for a Telehandler then he could have done the job himself.

 

[dutchgray]

Every telehandler we own at work and every one i've ever seen use foam filled tires. Stop and imagine what could happen if a telehandler with a load on the forks had a tire blow or even leak down quickly, they are foam filled for this reason.

They ain't foam filled over here, I have never known one that is.
Ours is just air but the tires do have 14 belts in them and fitters hate changing them.

 

[Radix2]

Every telehandler we own at work and every one i've ever seen use foam filled tires. Stop and imagine what could happen if a telehandler with a load on the forks had a tire blow or even leak down quickly, they are foam filled for this reason.

I checked the machine based on your post - the 6036 sitting outside definitely has air in the tires ( and the tires look pretty old and are starting to get surface cracks from the sun..)

Might be a California safety reg ? Sounds smart.

 

[Dustball]

Is applying a layer of sawdust over the whole slab as a protective layer an option?