Need Help, I think my contractor is lying to US

[foreverfalcon40]

Hey Guys,

We just got finished renovating the second floor. We had about 33 Hi-Hits installed. Before the work was done, they looked at our box and said we were good to go in regards to amperage. The job was complete and it was up to me to finish the rest of the job. A few months passed by, I finished the carpentry, paint and spackle.

The issue

In the master bedroom we installed (6) 6" cans with LED HiHats on the appropiate dimmer switch. When we ran the in window AC (3) out of six LED lights BURN OUT! If I switch the bulb with a working bulb it will work and than shortly it will burn out. This happens to three next to each other. The rest are OK.

Contractor is coming tomorrow and already said it might be a BOX issue when I think it could be a wiring issue.

 

[AZ Garage]

Not enough information.

However the A/C most likely has nothing to do with the LEDs burning out unless they did something really odd.

Most likely there is a wiring issue with the fixtures themselves or the wiring to the fixtures.

 

[foreverfalcon40]

Not enough information.

However the A/C most likely has nothing to do with the LEDs burning out unless they did something really odd.

Most likely there is a wiring issue with the fixtures themselves or the wiring to the fixtures.

Thank you for your response. What information would you need?

 

[foreverfalcon40]

 

[Richard Cranium]

really strange, does your air cond. unit vibrate enough to cause the problem?

 

[Dagny]

I'm an electrician and I have to know what he finds.

 

[Junkman]

I have experienced a high failure rate with inexpensive, no name, LED bulbs. LED's are very tolerant of voltage variations, so I doubt that it is the air conditioning unit. The only thing that I could think of was a poor connection, but then they wouldn't work at all.

 

[foreverfalcon40]

Thank you all for your reaponses.

The AC does not vibrate at all.

The LED Lights are Utilitech. We have over 80 of them in our home now on both floors. Lights from last year are still ticking good. Originally I thought we got a bad batch. New ones that swapped in burnt out as well.

 

[foreverfalcon40]

Like I said install new lights and worked great for hours on end as I did base trim, molding, doors, paint and Spackle. Once we installed the AC they burn out

 

[rockwithjason]

you are suffering from voltage drop that is killing the drivers in the lamps when the a/c cycles on. run an extension cord from another circuit and power the a/c on it. if that works then you will need a dedicated circuit for that a/c unit

 

[foreverfalcon40]

you are suffering from voltage drop that is killing the drivers in the lamps when the a/c cycles on. run an extension cord from another circuit and power the a/c on it. if that works then you will need a dedicated circuit for that a/c unit

Thank you!

Why would only 3 burn out and not the rest since they are all wired in Series?

 

[foreverfalcon40]

I will wait till tomorrow to try that. He wants three working lights. After he leaves I will post her verdict and run your test. If it needs its own circuit and there is an open space in the box than it will be a simple fix(kinda)?

 

[foreverfalcon40]

 

[ard]

if Jason is correct- that the windwo AC unit really should have been wired on a dedictaed outlet, the contractor will need to open the wall and run a new wire back to the "box" (ie 'main panel'). There are ways to snake wires in walls blind, without opening sheetrock, but is is a bit of a dying art.

As to why only 3 are affected- maybe there is a bit of variation in each light's driver circuit- with those three being more sensitvie to the lower voltage.

Another test is to measure the voltage at the plug of the AC when it turns on. See how it fluctuates when the AC kicks on. Could do that even with the bulbs out, when that AC kicks on the voltage should drop if it is indeed a wiring issue.

IMO it is NOT a "box" problem- the contractor is the 'expert' and he was contracted to install lights and an AC that worked. Even if the box was not large enough or it needed a branch circuit, as the expert he had a duty to do it right OR inform you that what you were telling him to install was inadequate. He cannot now say "yeah, it needed something else that you didnt pay for". You paid for working lights and AC.

If you allow him to waltz back in and snow you, it will be even harder to fight. I would want to know if the AC is dropping BEFORE he shows up....

 

[AZ Garage]

Thank you for your response. What information would you need?

Ah.. I assumed the A/C wasn't a window unit.

This makes more sense now. Window units should still be on their own dedicated circuit.

What is the nameplate information for the A/C unit?

What circuit(s) are the lights connected to, do they share a circuit with the receptacles?

I'm thinking the a/c unit is plugged into a shared receptacle/lighting circuit and when it cycles on, it is messing with the LED fixtures. Which is why they last initially but eventually will give out.

 

[justsam]

Is the panel you show with a 70 Amp main just for the upstairs?

Are all six lights on the same dimmer or are there two groups of three?

What type of receptacle is the AC unit plugged into? Is it a single or regular duplex receptacle? I did not see a ganged breaker so I assume the AC is 120 volt as opposed to 240 volt.

I too agree that if you hired the electrician to do what ever it takes, than it should be a dedicated circuit, for the AC.

I have not experienced an issue with voltage sag harming LED's, but all is possible. Need to wait on response from electrician.

 

[Strouty]

Great title, looking for drama tonight?

 

[ichabod]

you also could have a bad neutral, when the a/c kicks on it could be pulling one leg down and increasing the voltage on the other leg. causing an over voltage on the lights.

 

[brewchief]

Is the plug the A/C is on the same circuit as the lights?

I would like to see the voltage at the lights with the A/C running, I'm wondering if there is a bad neutral connection that gets worse with the A/C load and the lights are getting fed more the 120v.

 

[Dagny]

Ichabod has the best theory so far. High voltage is most logical.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Is the panel you show with a 70 Amp main just for the upstairs?

Are all six lights on the same dimmer or are there two groups of three?

What type of receptacle is the AC unit plugged into? Is it a single or regular duplex receptacle? I did not see a ganged breaker so I assume the AC is 120 volt as opposed to 240 volt.

I too agree that if you hired the electrician to do what ever it takes, than it should be a dedicated circuit, for the AC.

I have not experienced an issue with voltage sag harming LED's, but all is possible. Need to wait on response from electrician.

actually looks like the top left breaker is a DP 40a...

 

[Aceman]

Forever, how can you think your contractor is lying to you when he hasn't even had a chance to come out and determine exactly what the problem is?

 

[foreverfalcon40]

Thanks again for all your responses.

I am not looking for drama just not looking to get screwed in short notice. If I had time to go through all your suggestions I would. Right now I am just relaying info to my wife. I can't take off work tomorrow as my shop won a national award within our company. Big Wigs are coming from Miami all the way to Long Island, NY.

Horrible timing...

 

[foreverfalcon40]

Our contractor right off the bat says he thinks we need a bigger box which could be anywhere from $800-$3k. Before he did this job he went downstairs and inspected all three boxes and said we are good to go. Now that we are having issues...he doesn't think it's a wiring issue...he thinks it's a box issue.

 

[foreverfalcon40]

Just want to make sure he goes through all the necessary steps to diagnose and form a conclusion. Not just show up and puts around for 30mins to an hour and say hey you need $$$$ in additional work. I am a diesel mechanic by trade, when something is wrong you just don't start throwing parts at it. You start at the top of the diagnostic tree till you get to the root that causes the issue.

 

[BillK]

Just curious how any of this indicates that the "contractor is lying to us" ???????????

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Our contractor right off the bat says he thinks we need a bigger box which could be anywhere from $800-$3k. Before he did this job he went downstairs and inspected all three boxes and said we are good to go. Now that we are having issues...he doesn't think it's a wiring issue...he thinks it's a box issue.

A box issue as in the electrical panel?

The only way to know that is by measuring the voltage.

Did he do any measuring or did he just simply look at it?

 

[ard]

Just curious how any of this indicates that the "contractor is lying to us" ???????????

He said he "THINKS" not that he "IS"

the reason he "Thinks" is that the contractor, when TOLD of the issue over the phone, immediately said 'its probably the box'...with no diagnostic work at all


Therefore, Id submit this is the BASIS for the OP 'THINKING' the contractor is lying.


While it may be hyperbole, and indeed there may be better ways to characterize this situation, the OP isnt an electrician and doesnt really understand all the stuff we are posting...he is just stressed out.

Unless one of you guys is his contractor, why do you have a dog in this fight?

 

[justsam]

Normally the panel or box would not be replaced unless there is a capacity issue, which does not appear to be the case, or it is a dangerous vintage panel such as Federal Pacific or Zinsco.

He could well mean that the issue is inside the panel, such as has been suggested here as a loose neutral connection. Should be an easy fix for an electrician, at little or no cost.

 

[slip knot]

$800-$3k sounds like a lot of trouble shooting to spend on not replacing a box. I'd says he's grabbing at straws if he says the box needs replacing.

IOWs, yeah hes probably lying to you.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

OP what brand of panel do u have?

 

[UpstateNY]

70 amp main breaker, WTF ?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

70 amp main breaker, WTF ?

Whats the issue?

Its a subpanel...

 

[matt_i]

Why would only 3 burn out and not the rest since they are all wired in Series?

The lights actually work better when wired in parallel. I'm assuming these screw into an edison-style A-base as an interchange between an incandescent and CFL bulb.

However if they have a separate driver for the group they would likely be wired in series.

This doesn't really answer your question but its an important point to make sure the circuit on paper matches what's actually wired, and that there isn't a conceptual disconnect. I'm not trying to be overly critical, I've made the same mistake umpteen times when the picture in my head didn't match the field. When they were finally the same it made things much easier to understand and troubleshoot!

 

[AZ Garage]

Our contractor right off the bat says he thinks we need a bigger box which could be anywhere from $800-$3k. Before he did this job he went downstairs and inspected all three boxes and said we are good to go. Now that we are having issues...he doesn't think it's a wiring issue...he thinks it's a box issue.

If he didn't even take the faceplate off to look inside the tub or even measure voltage and is quoting you a price to "just replace it", I would think about getting a different contractor.

You should at least get a second opinion on this.

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

Did they know you were going to run a window A/C on that same circuit when they told you the box was OK? Do they know it now?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Did they know you were going to run a window A/C on that same circuit when they told you the box was OK? Do they know it now?

A window AC doesnt draw even half of what that panel has feeding it....And we dont know if the unit is on the same circuit....

 

[mburrus]

curious what company you work for, i live in miami...

i agree that there could be a neutral issue... assuming one dimmer for all 6 lights... what happens when you put a regular incandecent bulb in the fixture? pay attention to brightness as the ac unit kicks on.

highly doubt this is a panel issue... weird that your electrician would suggest that right off the bat.

is the ac 120 or 240v?

 

[FullRaceMerc]

you also could have a bad neutral, when the a/c kicks on it could be pulling one leg down and increasing the voltage on the other leg. causing an over voltage on the lights.

Ichabod has the best theory so far. High voltage is most logical.

Agreed. A bad neutral connection to the panel varies voltages in odd ways. Half the house gets bright while the other half goes dim. Short lived lamps. After seeing a couple it's the first thing I'd check.

 

[James-W]

I am all confused here, I must have missed something. Hopefully somebody here can straighten me out on this. The opening poster says the LED lights are on a dimmer switch. Lighting is normally on a different circuit than a wall outlet anyway, and these particular lights are on a dimmer switch. Dimmer switches are certainly not used on air-conditioners, so how can the air-conditioner possibly be on the same circuit as the lights in order to cause the problem? What am I missing???

Also, if the voltage goes up for whatever reason, since they are all on the same circuit why doesn't all 6 LED lights burn out instead of only 3? None of this makes any sense to me. Either I am laboring under a misconception or something really weird is going on.