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Can anyone make a case for China Craftsman?

Superbec

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I have a fair amount of Hazet ratchets and sockets.

Honestly, they're nothing to write home about.

The sockets I probably have less issue with. They're sockets. They do what sockets do.

The ratchets I have are from the late 80s I think. Fairly coarse toothed. I paid a fair amount for them, but I find that I rarely use them.

I know this is anathema, but I picked up some Pittsburgh Pro ratchets for a car kit and I find that I use them far more that my Hazets.

I do some vintage VW work, and you've just got to have a set of Hazet tools for that.... right? :)

are you kidding?

:mad:
 
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Virgil Cain

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are you kidding?

:mad:

You must be a kid. The late 1980's seem like the day before yesterday to me.

And, thinking back on it, in fact these ratchets are from the mid 1990s.

FYI - The world had fine toothed ratchets in the mid 1990s. But not these Hazets.
 

drink

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This is my first post, but this forum has helped me build my garage many a time. I've finally broke down and joined a forum.

I'm looking to get a decent metric wrench set for a motorcycle project, and have used the search function a lot, and what I'm really wondering is this:

Is China Craftsman really THAT bad? Examples please. I know the new ones have been dubbed "lobster claws" for obvious reasons. I'm not questioning that they are lower quality compared to NOS USA, but take a look at what those go for on ebay... Sometimes 2-3 times as much as a china counterpart.

I'm not a professional, but like to stock my tool box like I'm one for obvious reasons. It's the only place locally with a lifetime warranty, But i don't buy junk. I'd rather get a SK or used snap on set and pay out of pocket for a replacement on ebay than have one time use garbage i'm constantly taking back to sears.

Let me know what you think! I've got a wad of cash burning a hole in my wallet!

Conner

I was raised on USA Craftsman hand tools and grew up liking them. When they began making them cheaper in quality and sending them offshore to be made I did not really like it. A few of the offshore tools might have made their way in my collection of tools but I have really avoided them. When they left the made in USA price tags on the store shelves and replaced the USA tools I didn't like the thought of buying them. After paying the price for USA tools with a forever warranty and they said I would be getting an offshore tool under warranty if my USA tool broke I didn't like it either. When I encountered people in the USA telling stories about how them, their spouse, etc. had lost their job at the USA tool factory to cheaper offshore factories I did not enjoy hearing it. The people that made the decisions to do these things really let a lot of people down.
 

M6erfan

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This is my first post, but this forum has helped me build my garage many a time. I've finally broke down and joined a forum.

I'm looking to get a decent metric wrench set for a motorcycle project, and have used the search function a lot, and what I'm really wondering is this:

Is China Craftsman really THAT bad? Examples please. I know the new ones have been dubbed "lobster claws" for obvious reasons. I'm not questioning that they are lower quality compared to NOS USA, but take a look at what those go for on ebay... Sometimes 2-3 times as much as a china counterpart.

I'm not a professional, but like to stock my tool box like I'm one for obvious reasons. It's the only place locally with a lifetime warranty, But i don't buy junk. I'd rather get a SK or used snap on set and pay out of pocket for a replacement on ebay than have one time use garbage i'm constantly taking back to sears.

Let me know what you think! I've got a wad of cash burning a hole in my wallet!

Conner

I've wrenched on motorcycles for nearly 3 decades (not professionally) and here's what I recommend for the basics:

Get a really good 1/4" metric socket set, I use 1/4" 80% of the time so I'd get the best quality I could afford here. "Normal" 5" ratchet and a "long" flex ratchet 8" will do you right. I like Koken sockets and Snap On ratchets. I did get a locking flex from Carlyle that I like a lot and has been my go to recently...

3/8" sockets you will use less often, but you'll use them so get a decent set. 8-22mm or somewhere around those sizes. Again, ratchets I go with Snap On typically.

Don't skimp on screwdrivers, I use the Vessel Megadora's. Get a good hand impact driver too, make sure the bits are JIS compatible. I use a koken...

Wrenches, if you're working on older bikes and are going to reuse fasteners be wary of the "Flank Drive" and other grip assist that are popular theses days. They'll leave marks on your fasteners. I use SK standard combo wrenches, I have sizes from 6-22mm.

If I were starting today I'd seriously consider Carlyle tools, they've stepped up their game recently and their sockets look really nice. They've also got a sale going right now so you can get some great deals.

Anyway, I have a rather neutral opinion on Craftsman so can't help you there, but thought I'd chime in on what I'd get if I were you. Good luck and have fun
 
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Superbec

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You must be a kid. The late 1980's seem like the day before yesterday to me.

And, thinking back on it, in fact these ratchets are from the mid 1990s.

FYI - The world had fine toothed ratchets in the mid 1990s. But not these Hazets.

well... now it's 2016 ... and you're telling us craftsman is better than hazet....

because you had a poor choice in tools 20 years ago..

wow
 

Virgil Cain

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well... now it's 2016 ... and you're telling us craftsman is better than hazet....

because you had a poor choice in tools 20 years ago..

wow


Please quote for me where I ever said that Craftsman was better that Hazet.



It's ok ..... I'll wait.
 

Mickey O

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Can anyone make a case for China Craftsman?

I can, lets say you live directly next door to Sears and there are no other stores for 100 miles and you desperately need a paper weight, I'd buy a China made Craftsman tool until I could get to another store to by a USA made paper weight.
 

MPOWERD

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I can, lets say you live directly next door to Sears and there are no other stores for 100 miles and you desperately need a paper weight, I'd buy a China made Craftsman tool until I could get to another store to by a USA made paper weight.

I'd go outside and get a rock... :rocker:
 

dreamspeed

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Many of us feel nostalgic towards USA Craftsman tools. Unfortunately the current Made in China Craftsman tools are pretty trash. If you can get them super cheap on sale online then they are passable; but the "normal sale" prices at the Sears retail stores are horrendous. The MSRP prices are straight insulting.

For around the same price I would look for gearwrench, sunex, grey pneumatic sales.

For just a little more you can find slightly used armstrong, SK, proto stuff on ebay.
 

BDT/NWMN

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I can, lets say you live directly next door to Sears and there are no other stores for 100 miles and you desperately need a paper weight, I'd buy a China made Craftsman tool until I could get to another store to by a USA made paper weight.



Thinking I would wait a few weeks till the store closed.. After the building is demolished, save a brick for memories sake..

:sad: sad to think of it
 

Adam.C

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Just some advice from a guy looking back 30 years. If you are handy, buy the best tools ( note, not necessarily the best tools you think you can afford*) If you later decide you don't like using them, you can sell them for a good price.

Don't do what I did and bust your *** working with **** tools for 25 years. Nice tools are more fun to use and easier to be successful with.

*there are a lot of broke *** guys here and super cheapoes. They talk about tool sets being expensive like that's a fact. They argue over socket sets that are $20 vs $35 and think they are saving money. The worlds best tools are cheaper than their monthly Comcast bill. They could skip cigarettes or Starbucks coffees for a month and save the difference. And tools aren't just luxury items. They are actually investments. Ive saved many times more than my tools cost in repairs I was able to do myself.
 
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Mechanical Noise

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*there are a lot of broke *** guys here and super cheapoes. They talk about tool sets being expensive like that's a fact. They argue over socket sets that are $20 vs $35 and think they are saving money. The worlds best tools are cheaper than their monthly Comcast bill. They could skip cigarettes or Starbucks coffees for a month and save the difference. And tools aren't just luxury items. They are actually investments. Ive saved many times more than my tools cost in repairs I was able to do myself.

Comcast? Cigarettes? Starbucks?? Compared to that, the $3.99 socket set at Harbor Freight is PURE GOLD!!
 

zendriver

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I can, lets say you live directly next door to Sears and there are no other stores for 100 miles and you desperately need a paper weight, I'd buy a China made Craftsman tool until I could get to another store to by a USA made paper weight.

Good luck there.
 

bobcatdan

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I prefer USA made, but am not hell bent on it. What bugs me with import craftsman is it looks like cheap import. Now the last generation of USA craftsman is nothing to get excited about because it has been held to a lower and lower quality point to maintain prices that haven't really changed in 20 years. Importing could have been a mute point had the imports been of a higher quality then the USA which wouldn't have been hard. Just being at sears to warranty a few things, most of the tools are cheap and sad looking. Getting them cheap on sale for a beater kit is one thing, but I can't see building a main box from them. Sears big point of easy warranty is falling since the store doesn't stock **** for loose items.There are still bright spots in the craftsman line, but it's not wrenches, while maybe adjustables for now.
 

WhiskeyRanger

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I've bought a few new production craftsman sockets and have had no issues with them. I bought them to replace missing sockets from my old made in the USA sets I've had for decades. I couldn't tell you which ones are US and which ones are China, they both get the job done just fine.
 

1950mercury

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I've bought a few new production craftsman sockets and have had no issues with them. I bought them to replace missing sockets from my old made in the USA sets I've had for decades. I couldn't tell you which ones are US and which ones are China, they both get the job done just fine.

Blasphemy
 

ssdave

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I've bought a few new production craftsman sockets and have had no issues with them. I bought them to replace missing sockets from my old made in the USA sets I've had for decades. I couldn't tell you which ones are US and which ones are China, they both get the job done just fine.

If I was a retailer, this man would be my poster boy consumer. I'd want every customer to be just like him!

The case I can make for China Craftsman? At least for right now, if you buy a broken old Craftsman wrench or socket at a yard sale, or find a rusted out one in your yard, you can turn it in for something, even if it's only worth $.25.
 
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SantaAna12

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Even if Craftsman is your thing, there's no benefit to the China wrenches vs. a used U.S. one.
Craftsman wrenches are ergonomically garbage.
I've experienced some poor metallurgy in the ones made "recently."

This.
The ones I purchased to fill holes in my truck kit were soft.
That said, if they work for you.....they work.
 

Corndoggeh

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I have a mix of both USA and China craftsman, even a few lobster claw ones. I prefer the USA ones myself but I've noticed that the chinese ones are slowly improving back to the later USA versions. The lobster claw ones though are just ugly looking after I was pointed out about it, however, I have put some force on it and it did hold up so I can't complain about it not working.
 

Berserk

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Here is my case for China Craftsman, I bought a 200$ set off Craftsman and got every socket I could ever need, ratchets and ratchet wrenches etc. Never had a problem although I'm only a shade tree mechanic.
Even if I did I could just go to sears or Ace and get a replacement. OR I could have spent 200$ on ONE set of SAE Snap on wrenches and had the cool name on the side of my wrench. Yeah I know there better but if your honest a lot of guys who do not rely on the tool to make a living just buy it because it says Snap On.
On the flip side I do go to the swap meet's and like to buy used high end US tools used. Nothing like paying a 10th of the price.
 

T45

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Here is my case for China Craftsman, I bought a 200$ set off Craftsman and got every socket I could ever need,,,

This just says very little, alot of shadetree's can make a $200 mistake with their brain in a heartbeat. It doesn't matter what your tools are until the one time it does...this doesn't have anything to do with brands, but it has to do with what are th purpose of tools.

Tools that disappear and let you work fast and effective--help you do the work. Tools that drive you :willy_nil insane hinder getting **** done. Plain as that. But keep in mind if you havn't yet made a mental mistake that has cost you $200, plenty of other shadetrees have.

The more experiencde you have the less you want to worry about your tool, and the more important that the tool is not the subject of a debate about good or evil. Its just does its job, and you can move on to the next step, rinse+repeat until you've accomplished what you set out to do.
 

zendriver

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This just says very little, alot of shadetree's can make a $200 mistake with their brain in a heartbeat. It doesn't matter what your tools are until the one time it does...this doesn't have anything to do with brands, but it has to do with what are th purpose of tools.



Tools that disappear and let you work fast and effective--help you do the work. Tools that drive you :willy_nil insane hinder getting **** done. Plain as that. But keep in mind if you havn't yet made a mental mistake that has cost you $200, plenty of other shadetrees have.



The more experiencde you have the less you want to worry about your tool, and the more important that the tool is not the subject of a debate about good or evil. Its just does its job, and you can move on to the next step, rinse+repeat until you've accomplished what you set out to do.



Of course it matters, even to us lowlife "Shadetree" mechanics.

If we are using our precious spare time, to fix all the mechanical **** in our world, will we be satisfied with wrenches that snap or sockets that just round off fasteners? Of course not and it's really not a problem even with our cheapskate $200 set of tools because it just doesn't happen.

I have a craftsman snap on thorsen 20 to 40 years old. Using them under the "shade of a tree", they all seem to work consistently every time so I'm not would be sure what would be any different if I use them every day, all day, since to my knowledge wrenches and sockets really don't wear out. Perhaps the professionals can elaborate.

If someone can use $200 a set of tools to remove and replace an alternator, or in tank fuel pump , and the tools barely have a scratch on them, maybe someone can explain how having $3000 worth of the same tools does a better job.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

psychoclaw84

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I can't.

But when a job arise and the tool will work, who cares about the country of origin.

My first set of sockets were Checker Auto Parts "CREWLINE" sockets made in Taiwan. They never failed and always performed the job flawlessly. I upgraded to a full set of Craftsman Professional Socket set (the ones with the black plastic bands) I ended up removing the bands because they got in the way too much. Followed with a set of USA made craftsman combo wrenches which worked very well. The open ends always flexed and I thought it was a flaw with the craftsman wrench, instead all open end wrenches will flex, the Snap On Flank Drive Plus & Wright's with the similar design are the best.

Today I have a mixture of tools from different countries and they all work well and none has failed me.

Personally, I do not like the fact Craftsman tools are Chinese made. It is on the same line as Hostess going out of business and not making Twinkies. Some things are AMERICAN and should stay american.
 

TK-421

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The #1 problem with China Craftsman, here at least, is that it's made in China and not the USA. Garage Journal has a major hardon for anything made in the USA and pisses on most things made in Asia.
 

BDT/NWMN

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Of course it matters, even to us lowlife "Shadetree" mechanics.

If we are using our precious spare time, to fix all the mechanical **** in our world, will we be satisfied with wrenches that snap or sockets that just round off fasteners? Of course not and it's really not a problem even with our cheapskate $200 set of tools because it just doesn't happen.

I have a craftsman snap on thorsen 20 to 40 years old. Using them under the "shade of a tree", they all seem to work consistently every time so I'm not would be sure what would be any different if I use them every day, all day, since to my knowledge wrenches and sockets really don't wear out. Perhaps the professionals can elaborate.









I have had my share of new ProTo and SnapOn sockets and end wrenches, ratchets and pliers wear out over the years.. The difference is the over the years part... The bargain brands such as HF and Craftsman were "far shorter" lived while attempting the same usage.. But that "far shorter" that I experienced, often working 50-70 hours a week, could be translated into "good enough for under a shade tree" .. Some of US use our tools more in three days than others would in a year..
 

T45

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Of course it matters, even to us lowlife "Shadetree" mechanics.

If we are using our precious spare time, to fix all the mechanical **** in our world, will we be satisfied with wrenches that snap or sockets that just round off fasteners? Of course not and it's really not a problem even with our cheapskate $200 set of tools because it just doesn't happen

You completely missing the point being made, which is NOT a dig at shadetree anytihing, it is simply that mistakes are more costly than tools. Regardless of who is making them and with what kind of tools.

In other words, errors and mental mistakes are both more likely and more expensive than (catastrophic) tool failures. And since this is true, jugding the value of a tools solely by whether or not it explodes or fails during a project is not the only way to judge a tool.

Some tools help you work better faster easier and more focused, and those tools are more worthwhile to some people and sometimes worth more than another tool to most if not all people.

Just how much of a premium they are worth isn't really the point either, it is just that in the scheme of an average automobile's annual expenses -- $200 is ant's piss. Averge person...you are looking at $25k upfront w/ $8K a year in depreciation interest running cost and maintenace.

So if you have a $200 toolkit and very limited experience, and take the view that it hasn't broken yet therefore it must be as good as anytool out ther...I think that is shortsighted.

Rounding off hex-key allen bolts typically doesn't happen in one go, to use one example. First the key smears, then the bolt gets a little out of true, and the they key smears a little more, and after a year of this maybe it gets rusted...and then finally on the 3rd or 7th service the bolt strips. No catastrophic failure, and even then its sort of OK until its too late, then its a mess.

Buy a new key/bit, but a new bolt, buy a new set of bolt outs etc. no big deal. But instead of a $4 ket i used a 1.25 key but hey I spent an hour buying new hardware and spent 40 on some bolt out kit and 6 on a new part from the OEM and then another $1.25 on a new POS hex key.

:willy_nil

Tell me again how i'm saving money with the cheap tools again?

Now, if you need a spare key to use one or put in the truck for emergency use or whatever...knock yourself out with the cheap tools...cause any tool might be better than nothing in a pinch. But lets not kid ourselves that a tool that works once and doesn't break is "as good as anything" in any larger context.

And this has again little to do with how important anyone here fancies themselves. Its more about how broad a context we look at when we thing about pricing/budget and timeframes of evaluation.
 

Superbec

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Rounding off hex-key allen bolts typically doesn't happen in one go, to use one example. First the key smears, then the bolt gets a little out of true, and the they key smears a little more, and after a year of this maybe it gets rusted...and then finally on the 3rd or 7th service the bolt strips. No catastrophic failure, and even then its sort of OK until its too late, then its a mess.

Buy a new key/bit, but a new bolt, buy a new set of bolt outs etc. no big deal. But instead of a $4 ket i used a 1.25 key but hey I spent an hour buying new hardware and spent 40 on some bolt out kit and 6 on a new part from the OEM and then another $1.25 on a new POS hex key.

:willy_nil

Tell me again how i'm saving money with the cheap tools again?

Now, if you need a spare key to use one or put in the truck for emergency use or whatever...knock yourself out with the cheap tools...cause any tool might be better than nothing in a pinch. But lets not kid ourselves that a tool that works once and doesn't break is "as good as anything" in any larger context.

And this has again little to do with how important anyone here fancies themselves. Its more about how broad a context we look at when we thing about pricing/budget and timeframes of evaluation.

this should be made in agreement/acknowledgment form and should be signed before making an account on a tool related forum :)

:thumbup:
 

WhiskeyRanger

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The problem is that "good enough" or "as good as" are statements that are made in context. Take them out of context and argue them in another context and you are wasting everyone's time. Saying that craftsman is as good as snap on in the context of a shade tree mechanic is debatable. Saying craftsman isn't as good value as snap on for a shade tree mechanic because in a professional setting they won't stand up is ridiculous. Likewise, saying craftsman is as good as snap on for a pro because they work for a shade tree is absurd, they have different requirements.

Likewise, no one is arguing that a tool that destroys fasteners is just as good as one that doesn't. I think we can all agree that there are "tools" out there that should never be purchased. The disagreement seems to be where that line is drawn.

The tools I use at home would probably stand up to use at work, but they wouldn't be as easy or comfortable to use for 8-12 hours 6-7 days a week. That doesn't matter because that isn't how i use them at home.

There is also the issue of personal preference. I work with guys who use anything from HF, to SO. Most fall somewhere in the middle. My tools are mostly Klein and Proto. I've been partnered with guys who came from jobs where the company provided all the tools, so when they came here they went to Lowes and bought all Kobalt tools. Some got swapped out, some didn't. I would hate using those acetate handled screwdrivers, but they don't mind. Job gets done the same either way.
 

BK13

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I have a mix of both USA and China craftsman, even a few lobster claw ones. I prefer the USA ones myself but I've noticed that the chinese ones are slowly improving back to the later USA versions. The lobster claw ones though are just ugly looking after I was pointed out about it, however, I have put some force on it and it did hold up so I can't complain about it not working.

The late USA CM stuff I bought for my dad was terrible... ( I didn't realize at the time what a bad son I was... LOL). Ratchets that skipped out of the box, sockets that wouldn't stay on QR ratchets, soft screwdriver tips... Even the blow-mold cases broke almost immediately.
 

ssdave

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Obviously, from the number of Craftsman sets that are out there, they are doing what some people need. I think all but the most die hard fanboys will acknowledge that.

I think all but the most blind will also acknowledge that higher quality, better material, better fitting tools (which not so coincidentally cost more) round off fasteners less, slip less, break less, wear better and generally give better service.

There is a large proportion of users who don't do enough work to notice the difference, who do non-critical work that doesn't reveal the difference, or who are interested in the cost savings so much that they don't care. That is the target market that Craftsman is aiming for, and satisfies very well. When those users come on here and say that their Craftsman is every bit as useful and good as Snap On or SK or Hazet or Wera or ???, they are telling the truth as they know it. The truth is that they can't tell the difference. So, to them, Craftsman is as good, without the cost and the name. For them to pay more for better tools would be a waste, much as it would be a waste for someone who has high demand needs to throw money away on a poor tool that will not work as well.

There's room for both sides of the spectrum and no reason for one to put down the other.

Craftsman will still be good enough made in China to keep enough sales to stay in business, or they will go out of business, or they will decide to make better tools, either in China or somewhere else. In the big scheme of things, these things adjust themselves out over time.

Remember Black and Decker? Great name for quality products at a decent price, then they started making cheaper and cheaper tools, lost market share, and then corrected by starting a new line of slightly better tools called Dewalt.
 

timmyisme22

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I actually recommend the Dewalt reversible ratcheting metric set (10-19mm). You can find them at sears outlet for $47 or $40 in outlet stores (sears main stores have them for $90, amazon for $60).

Other than that for the function (heads and box-ends aren't big and work well), get a longer set of non-ratcheting for harder torquing. For a reversible ratcheting set, it works well.
 
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Adam.C

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Lol ...I pick things up and put them down

Obviously, from the number of Craftsman sets that are out there, they are doing what some people need. I think all but the most die hard fanboys will acknowledge that.

I think all but the most blind will also acknowledge that higher quality, better material, better fitting tools (which not so coincidentally cost more) round off fasteners less, slip less, break less, wear better and generally give better service.

There is a large proportion of users who don't do enough work to notice the difference, who do non-critical work that doesn't reveal the difference, or who are interested in the cost savings so much that they don't care. That is the target market that Craftsman is aiming for, and satisfies very well. When those users come on here and say that their Craftsman is every bit as useful and good as Snap On or SK or Hazet or Wera or ???, they are telling the truth as they know it. The truth is that they can't tell the difference. So, to them, Craftsman is as good, without the cost and the name. For them to pay more for better tools would be a waste, much as it would be a waste for someone who has high demand needs to throw money away on a poor tool that will not work as well.

There's room for both sides of the spectrum and no reason for one to put down the other.

Craftsman will still be good enough made in China to keep enough sales to stay in business, or they will go out of business, or they will decide to make better tools, either in China or somewhere else. In the big scheme of things, these things adjust themselves out over time.

Remember Black and Decker? Great name for quality products at a decent price, then they started making cheaper and cheaper tools, lost market share, and then corrected by starting a new line of slightly better tools called Dewalt.

Very well said.
 
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